Robinson Arms Sues Remington, Bushmaster, RRA, and Magpul

[sobriant74]

Azziza,
I'm a fan of good weapons; I rarely care or pay attention to the companies or their owners. My whole point, that you seemed to miss, is that a lot of people are taking this way too seriously right now and just need to calm down. Its going to take months or years for this to be resolved and moaning about it online isn't getting anyone anywhere.

Yes I own two XCR-L's, and I like them. They fit my bill and I ask you to respect that and move on. I own Ruger, but I don't give a crap what Bill Ruger said or did before he died. I own Colt, even though they love to sue other companies and complain to the Govt when they don't get their way on a contract bid. I own DPMS and have never had a problem with either of my rifles. I own a single HK product and will probably never buy another, but that's mainly b/c of the stupid magwell on the SL8. I even own Savage, Remington and Marlin, although I know nothing about who the companies gave money to in the last election, nor do I give a rats behind. I sold off all of my S&W's after buying another gun that had problems and had to be shipped back for repairs or replacement, but I don't go around on forums bitching about them. I liberally apply Magpul products to most of my rifles b/c they make good accessories not b/c of their corporate philosophy and
most importantly of all
I enjoy time spent on the range with friends poking holes in paper. I don't get my panties in a wad about corporate shenanigans, life is too short.

I'm going out tomorrow to practice my 2nd Amendment rights and I am going to blast a few hundred rounds through a few guns, and yes, one of my XCR-L's will probably be one of them. I encourage anyone reading this to also hit the range and spend some quality time with their favorite black rifle.

 

[Hunt3r]

This law suit really centers around the Bolt Hold Open.

If you notice, looking through the patent, examine the drawing of the bolt hold open.

http://patimg1.uspto.gov/.piw?PageN...s1=magpul.ASNM.%26OS=AN/magpul%26RS=AN/magpul

Forgive me for posting that, but you need a TIFF reader in order to see it. Anyhow, the important part is the bolt catch.

See the resemblance? Also, the position of the bolt catch is to be noted. However, whether or not the ACR's bolt catch is close enough to the XCR's bolt catch to be considered patent infringement remains to be seen.

I am a member of the XCR forums, but the placement and the design of the bolt catch is a bit close, and could be construed as patent infringement. The mag release and position are really more related to the M16 and the sort, so I don't see the infringement there.

To be honest, I don't see anywhere else where the ACR would be violating patents held by Robinson Armament.

That, and the fact that the BHO is in the trigger and ambidextrous.

 

[variablebinary]

Multicaliber firearms have been around for years. Modular designs allowing caliber switching in combat rifles is a new twist on this, but Robarm's lawsuit strikes me as idiotic. Everyone has known about these rifles for at least two years, and I find it highly strange that Robarm is just now getting around to filing a lawsuit.

FWIW, I'd never consider buying one of their products after Alex Robinson showed up on TFL a few years ago and proved himself to be an uncivil, childish jerk.

Read the archived thread here.

If some internet goon was making up total lies, saying my business was going under, which in turn could affect my bottomline, I'd be pissed too.

Also, its worth noting Robarm did not go under, so we can see who had the real malfunction in that thread

George Hill was rude and pissy and got personal when confronted with how wrong he was here. Would you classify that as "uncivil and childish"

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=364895&page=3&highlight=XCR

 

[ny32182]

RA has been on a perpetual gun forum ride to "out of business" since before Magpul's only product was the Magpul... yet here they are. It sure is taking them a long time to get all the way out of business. Been headed that way for nearly ten years; the time in which I've followed their products.

 

[Robert]

I do not disagree with being pissed over someone saying your company is going under. But the manner in which he responded is what did it for me. There is being adult about things and refuting false statement with fact and then there is his response, which is more akin to my 2 year old. I have never owned one of his rifles and never will for a variety of reasons . If there is merit to his law suit then it will be seen in the decision of the court.

 

[recon]

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=45088&page=5

 

[Detritus]

I do not disagree with being pissed over someone saying your company is going under. But the manner in which he responded is what did it for me. There is being adult about things and refuting false statement with fact and then there is his response, which is more akin to my 2 year old. I have never owned one of his rifles and never will for a variety of reasons . If there is merit to his law suit then it will be seen in the decision of the court.

Exactly, going on a public forum and instead of trying to politely dispell rumors of your company's eminent demise. Not only getting in a pissing match, but makinf comments that are sure to insult over half the people likely to read the thread. IS to be advise against

After a scene like that almost no one cares who's right, all they'll remember is you being a Arogant A-hole. for any business especially one that to a noticable extent relies on the internet equivilent of "word of mouth", Perception is everything. Robinson's comments in that TFL thread pretty much proved That George HIll was right in saying

Alex may know guns, but I don't think he really knows what he is doing when it comes to selling the guns and creating a loyal customer base.

BTW having your last post ever on a forum be a comment that could be translated as, "you guys don't get it, i'm better than all you and company is better than anyone still making an AR or AK! you should be kissing my feet, not commenting on what a petulant snot i'm being. I'm taking my ball and going home" is never a good idea.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Why are so many folks getting so ****ey with Rob Arms for standing up for what they say they have a patent on?

If they do have a valid patent that is being infringed they have every right to sue for redress, that's what the courts are for.

If you go on trawl through the Magpul ACR patents including the specific BHO/mag release they even cite the Robinson Arms M96 as the previous art.

Exactly. If they infringed the patent, they should be sued, and Cerebus should pay *something* plus pay Robinson's atty's fees. If they didn't infringe the patent, then the court should rule in favor of Cerebus, and make the plaintiff pay Cerebus's atty's fees. Did they infringe the patent? Who knows - that's for a well-informed jury or judge to decide after a lengthly trial and familiarization with the ins and outs of patent law and the specifics of the two designs.

 

[Pweller]

I think Robinson has an obligation to protect their intellectual property. That is the whole point of a patent in the first place.

I did some very simple patent research at one point, and one important issue that hasn't been brought up is that there are two different kinds of patents. Robinson appears to have a patent for function (based on the patent number), which is a fairly strong patent and is not easy to get. Some threads have referenced Magpul's patent, which is a much weaker design patent (designated by a 'D' in front of the patent number). A design patent is simply for the artistic design/appearance of an item, and is fairly weak. It is not very defensible in court, and is consequently less expensive to obtain than a patent for function.

I think that Robinson's and Cerebus' business practices are irrelevant in this case. The popularity of Robinson's products vs. anything else is also irrelevant.

 

[Dravur]

Ain't ever seen an XCR get anyone killed.

When there are 12 of em in the hands of civilians, none in Military or LEO hands, it isn't surprising you haven't seen one get anyone killed.

I haven't seen anyone killed by a Unicorn either.

Welcome to relevancy week....

The XCR might be a great gun.... Might not. Rob Arms might be a great company, might not...

The rifle doesn't do anything that my ARs won't do....they both put a .22 size hole in something..

 

[chieftain]

When there are 12 of em in the hands of civilians, none in Military or LEO hands, it isn't surprising you haven't seen one get anyone killed.

Yea, I know the facts are a tough to answer when all you can do is insult.

Actually there are a few agencies deploying the XCR. I know sort of rains on your invalid template.

I haven't seen anyone killed by a Unicorn either.

Yea, something like an ACR. Your point?

Welcome to relevancy week....

The XCR might be a great gun.... Might not. Rob Arms might be a great company, might not...

The rifle doesn't do anything that my ARs won't do....they both put a .22 size hole in something.

See you are wrong again.

It can also make 6.5mm, 6.8mm, and 7.62 holes too. Your AR can’t.

Mounted troops can get it with a folding stock if required or needed. Comes with rails without having to pay more for extra rails.

Stronger bolt and extractor.

Frankly I prefer my SCAR. And to my knowledge, unlike the Colt, the SCAR has not been the direct cause of any US deaths or wounds, like the Colt.

The problem was Colt. Accept it.

Go figure.

Fred

 

[kwelz]

Wow chieftain lots of talking, no real facts. Your claims that Colt is the cause of the deaths of US troops is unfounded. Someone above said it best. Probably 99.9% of M4 failures can be traced back to user error. Amazing how armorers and the people with the most trigger time have no problem trusting the M4 and consider it an exceptional platform.

 

[Dravur]

It can also make 6.5mm, 6.8mm, and 7.62 holes too. Your AR can’t.

That's news to my various caliber uppers, but they aren't Unicorns....also add .22lr, 50 beowulf....et al

When the XCR has been in the field for 50 or so years, and MILLIONS have been out there, maybe you get to yak it up as being the best thing since sliced bread.... but as you say has been used by a handful...at the most.... Well, not much of a comparison....

When the AR was developed, the gun was new and there were problems. There are problems with EVERY gun that sees as wide of use as the AR platform.. Even the AK-47 has its problems. The XCR has the benefit of all that research and development... and yet still has fewer guns out there than Hi-point.... I wonder why? Price to value ratio?

Mounted troops can get it with a folding stock if required or needed. Comes with rails without having to pay more for extra rails.

LOL, mounting rails included? like they threw em in for free? Ummmm, the price IS included in the price... and what if I dont want rails on my XCR? huh?
Ok, you win on the folding stock...1 point for ya.

Stronger bolt and extractor? Does it lift weights? Is it heavier?

And again, your SCAR may not have caused a death, but it too has not seen the MILLIONS of units, MILLIONS of rounds down range or the MILLIONS of hours of use.

And yet, they all leave the same sized hole in things.....

You just don't like the AR and thought you would take the time to share. I can understand that, but this thread wasn't about that.



The problem is logic, deal with it.

 

[Justin]

I've been away from the internet for a couple of days, but figured I'd give a response to Kimber45ACP

The slanderous posts against Alex Robinson are baffling. Here's why:

1. Robinson has a PATENT.

Anyone can file for and receive a patent for practically anything. It remains to be seen, however, if Alex Robinson's lawsuits will result in a ruling in his favor.

2. Instead of slandering Alex Robinson (you're better than that Justin), why not stick to the issue of the lawsuit.

It has been my experience that one can sometimes judge the legitimacy of a lawsuit by the character of the person filing said lawsuit. Also, nothing I posted is slander. Slander, by definition, is spoken, not written. Also, and most importantly, it isn't slander if it's true.

3. I think every post should be deleted that uses the phrase "frivolous lawsuit" WITHOUT explaining WHY the lawsuit supposedly has no merit.

At a glance, nothing in his patent would seem to be indicative of something that hasn't already been done before. The layout and design of the Magpul Masada rifle (among others) has been public knowledge for at least a few years, so I find it somewhat suspect that Robarm is just now getting around to realizing that these other designs are infringing on something that is unique to Robinson. That said, I'm not a patent attorney, so it could turn out that there is indeed merit to the suit. But given the timing of it (on the eve of most of these new designs going mainstream, with, no doubt, the big unveilings at SHOT) I find the whole thing fairly suspect, and indicative not of a true patent infringement lawsuit, but as a money-grab for an out-of-court legal settlement.

Again, Robinson has a patent. That counts for a LOT in a situation like this. Do you know how hard it is to get a patent?

For about $10K, you can secure a patent for just about anything. I know. I've looked into it.

I've never bought anything made by Robinson because their prices are too high and they can't/won't seem to make enough product to CREATE a demand. I almost never see anything from Robinson in the gun stores. I thought the M96 was a great idea but they never really even got it to market. I hate it when companies are too busy thinking about the "next" project to get the CURRENT project right.

I don't own anything made by Robarm, don't really have an interest in their products, and am completely agnostic about the Robarm-made rifles vs. the other designs that are gunning* for the next-gen rifle market in civilian, military, or law-enforcement.


*Sorry for the pun

 

[Justin]

If some internet goon was making up total lies, saying my business was going under, which in turn could affect my bottomline, I'd be pissed too.

Also, its worth noting Robarm did not go under, so we can see who had the real malfunction in that thread

George Hill was rude and pissy and got personal when confronted with how wrong he was here. Would you classify that as "uncivil and childish"

George Hill may be a lot of things, up to and including a knuckle-dragging ogre ( ) but a goon he is not. I've certainly had my disagreements with him over various firearms-related issues, but it doesn't change the fact that when Alex Robinson showed up on TFL, he lashed out like an angry four-year-old. George's initial post on the issue was certainly not an attempt to undermine Robarm, and, frankly, Alex's responses in that thread seemed to indicate that there's either something wrong with Robarm, or something wrong with Alex Robinson's ability to interact socially in anything approaching a civil manner. All Alex would have had to do in that thread would be to post the facts with absolutely no need to resort to childish name-calling. Alex, however, opted to take the low road, and in doing so, made such an impression on me that eight years later I still have no problem recalling that particular discussion, the site it took place on, and who the primary players were.

Given the tens of thousands of internet discussions I've read, posted by literally thousands of people from all over the world, that's a helluva first impression.

 

[chieftain]

Wow chieftain lots of talking, no real facts. Your claims that Colt is the cause of the deaths of US troops is unfounded.

NO FACTS! I was there. I guess you are ignorant of the facts my son.

Let me recommend some reading.

On line: Col. Culver tells the story much better than I can. He has a lot more facts than I do. I was not in the Col's outfit, but our experiences were similar. We were both in the 3rd Marine Division at the same time.

Part I
http://www.jouster.com/articles30m1/index.html

Part II
http://www.jouster.com/articles30m1/M16part2.html

A book: The Hill Fights: The First Battle of Khe Sanh
~ Edward F. Murphy

Read the facts, and learn the facts, then get back to me. Some folks don’t know what they don’t know.

That's news to my various caliber uppers, but they aren't Unicorns....also add .22lr, 50 beowulf....et al

Funny, I can’t find one of those in the Colt catalog. Sheeesh!

When the XCR has been in the field for 50 or so years, and MILLIONS have been out there, maybe you get to yak it up as being the best thing since sliced bread.... but as you say has been used by a handful...at the most.... Well, not much of a comparison....

Doesn’t look like that is going to happen. I expect that history will treat the AR family like the Springfield 1873. History will wonder why we put up with it for so long like the 1873

When the AR was developed, the gun was new and there were problems. There are problems with EVERY gun that sees as wide of use as the AR platform.. Even the AK-47 has its problems. The XCR has the benefit of all that research and development... and yet still has fewer guns out there than Hi-point.... I wonder why? Price to value ratio?

Probably the same reason the SCAR is having to come in the back door. All the FUDS that think the AR is a good system. It has failed every comparison test it has ever been put up to.

Unlike the Colt salesmen in the beginning, Robinson don’t play to get along, or make the big payoffs. Colt does.

LOL, mounting rails included? like they threw em in for free? Ummmm, the price IS included in the price... and what if I dont want rails on my XCR? huh?

Buy a Colt. There is a reason they are desperate to keep the contracts. They ain’t got nothing. And without the bribes to keep buying the Colt, it ain’t going to be around long.

Ok, you win on the folding stock...1 point for ya.

Thank you.

Stronger bolt and extractor? Does it lift weights? Is it heavier?

Nope, just more robust, effective, and durable. Something no Colt bolt or extractor has ever been. Fundamental design problem.

And for some more fun about Weak AR bolts:

http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=3807

More of those pesky REAL LIFE FACTS!

And again, your SCAR may not have caused a death, but it too has not seen the MILLIONS of units, MILLIONS of rounds down range or the MILLIONS of hours of use.

The Colt was deployed before there were Millions of Colts, and it was getting US Marines mutilated and dead. I personally MedEvaced some of those troops and bagged others.

And yet, they all leave the same sized hole in things.....

No they don’t, only the Colt is stuck with one size hole. When they Change the hole size, it will not be with a rifle that takes a dump on itself.

You just don't like the AR and thought you would take the time to share. I can understand that, but this thread wasn't about that.

Very astute. I don’t like the AR. It got friends dead and wounded in combat because that rifle could not cut it. Now tell me why you don’t like the XCR?

You have reasons why you don’t like the XCR. Mainly because it ain’t your rifle, or you don’t like Alex Robinson. Personally I prefer my SCAR.

I don’t like the Colt or the design, because my friends were wounded and killed because of that POS. And it’s still going on.

The problem is logic, deal with it.

No the problem is lack of logic. 50 years later and the troops still want another rifle. Many of the issues are exactly the same ones we had with that POS 45 years ago.

Here is some more “LOGIC”:

AR Extractor Problems Overseas!
20 Aug 09

Report from a friend in-Country (Iraq):

"Big gun-battle here yesterday!

I experienced a failure-to-extract with my M4. I couldn't clear it, so I had to default to my M9 (Beretta 92F). Insurgents tried to shoot me as I was performed immediate-action/transition, but I was moving so fast they were unsuccessful. M9 ran fine.

My experience is not unusual. Lots of extraction issues here with the M4. Ammunition is being blamed, but it strikes me that the real problem is soft-extraction, due to worn extractors. Many are chipped and otherwise badly haggard."

Comment: It is well know that the bolt, and particularly the extractor, is a weak-point with the Stoner System. The extractor and extractor-spring must be perpetually looked after.

MGI's "D-Ring" is an interim fix that is enormously helpful. Highly recommended for all ARs.

***************
Same Old Problem!
11 Oct 09

The problem that won't go away!
Despite the Pentagon's, and the Administration's, best efforts to quash it, news leaked from Afghanistan yesterday about issue-M4s failing their users. These unhappy first-hand reports see the light of day every so often, only to be promptly denied, dismissed, and quickly buried by a gaggle of star-wearers and politicians alike.

From wherever they started their career, star-wearers of today teethed on the M16 and its succeeding variants (like the current M4). Most have never known another rifle, nor another cartridge.
The autochthonous inadequacy of the 5.56X45 (223) round, in its current role at a main-battle cartridge, has been well known, and generally acknowledged, for over forty years. Every conceivable attempt has been made to " upgrade" this cartridge. None have been successful enough to justify retaining it. Yes, it is still with us.
The maintenance-sensitive Stoner System is light, but that attribute is one of the few to recommend it. Gas-piston systems, as embodied in the SIG/556, XCR, and others, albeit heavier, have demonstrated themselves to be significantly superior in terms of both reliability and durability.

Unfortunately, adopting a new rifle, chambered for the same, tired 223 round, only solves half the problem. We must have a new cartridge, with range and penetration worthy of a main-battle weapon, combined with a new, gas-piston rifle.

The worn-out argument of "re-training" on a new rifle doesn't stand up. During the M16's tenure, we've gone through several generations of vehicles, anti-tank weapons, pistols, field-rations, and a host of other personal gear. And yet, acquiring the next generation of main-battle rifles has somehow become an interminable, impenetrable barrier!

For the cost of a single F22, we could re-arm, and re-train, the entire Corps of Infantry!

Maybe this time?

John Farnam

*********************
Brits Experience the Same Problem with the 223!

28 Oct 09

Now, even the Brits are speaking up!
A recent article in a London newspaper brought to light rancorous and unnerving comments from British Infantrymen serving in the Mideast about their troublesome bullpup SA80 rifles and the 5.56X45 round for which they are chambered (the same 5.56X45 for which the American M4 is chambered).

Complaints center on limited range, poor wounding effect (particularly at extended ranges), and poor penetration. By contrast, the 7.62X39 round used by most Taliban fighters is effective at longer ranges, easily penetrates common barriers, and reliably delivers an instantly crippling wound.

British soldiers, like their American counterparts, complain that multiple, solid hits are required to bring down enemy fighters, and that their rifles will not even shoot through car doors with any consistency.

Among the British, there are still some FALs, just as an occasional M14 can be found among the Americans. Soldiers are now clamoring for these weapons (chambered for 7.62x51) and use them every chance they get.

The British SA80 rifle, which superseded the FAL in the 1990s, has be problem-prone since its inception. Several expensive "fixes" have been implemented, but problems endure. The rifle is not a popular piece of equipment now, nor has it ever been!

So, like American Soldiers and Marines, British soldiers are lobbying, mostly quietly but sometimes openly, for a new rifle, chambered for a more powerful caliber.

And, in both the UK and the USA, politicians and star-wearers alike continue to dither, turning a deaf ear to the plaintiff chorus of complaints.

John Farnam

For the record, John and I did our post graduate field work in the same place.

As for the folks who don’t like Alex Robinson. Yet they buy Glocks. If you want to meet the daddy of all A$$Holes, you must meet Gaston Glock.

I like my SCAR. It is a BETTER rifle.

Go figure.

Fred

 

[everallm]

To make the thread perfect all we now need to do is add a couple of "plastic v metal", "9mm v .45" and "AK v AR" comments.

The case will be and should be heard on it's merits via the legal system, the differing preferences/prejudices of the varying posters will count for bugger all.

Moving on.........

 

[Dravur]

Every rifle will have failures. Every single variation, every single brand.

XCRs will have failures... SCARS will have failures. It is the nature of the beast. So, if these rifles were out there and had the millions of hours, rounds etc, there will be failures. And they will cause deaths.

The AK has had failures. The FN has had failures. They happen....

Also, Id bet that if the XCR was chosen to be the next battle rifle for the US, it would quickly show its failings as well. Also, im willing to bet, the .gov would only be buying it in .223.... just like the Colts and LMTs. So, the fact that Colt doesn't make other calibers...except 9mm is a hoot. They also don't make bubble gum... as the .gov doesn't buy that from them either.

But here is the rub.... The thread had nothing to do with the success or failures of the AR, but you chose to drop your biased opinion about it on a thread that had nothing to do with it. And I like bustin chops, so here I am.

Personally, if someone gave me an XCR, I'd love to give it a shot. I may even buy a SCAR in the future. But, the ARs I have do exactly the same as those two rifles. I have more calibers available, more ways to customize and I have a ton of fun shooting them.

Now, if Robinson Arms owns a patent that is being infringed upon, then they need to sue. If they lose, they lose. If they win... well, they win.

So, we will see.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Ok, this is definitely straying off topic, but the truth needs to be pointed out on a couple of items regarding recent posts.

Chieftan, you are aware that Colt is not the only manufacturer of AR's, right? This sight is prmarily comprised of civilians and discussing civilian firearms. I would venture that Colt M4geries account for less than 5% of AR ownership here,

Also, stop touting Robarms as invincible. They can, have had, and continue to have reliability and accuracy issues, as well as outright breakages. And Alex has proven that he is not the best to deal with in said instance.

and now as everallm said, moving on..........

 

[chieftain]

Every rifle will have failures. Every single variation, every single brand.

The only Documented en masse combat failures I know of standard issue weapons (non crew served) are the AR15 family, and the FAL in Yemen.

XCRs will have failures... SCARS will have failures. It is the nature of the beast. So, if these rifles were out there and had the millions of hours, rounds etc, there will be failures. And they will cause deaths.

Not the en masse failures of the AR family, which of course are documented.

The AK has had failures. The FN has had failures. They happen....

Once again, not en masse in combat, like the AR family.

Also, Id bet that if the XCR was chosen to be the next battle rifle for the US, it would quickly show its failings as well. Also, im willing to bet, the .gov would only be buying it in .223.... just like the Colts and LMTs. So, the fact that Colt doesn't make other calibers...except 9mm is a hoot. They also don't make bubble gum... as the .gov doesn't buy that from them either.

No weapon is perfect, that is true. But an en masse often as high as 40-50% of the units weapons not being able to fire more than one shot. No the SCAR, XCR are not going to have that problem. Both have a much more robust Bolt and Extractor than any weapon of the AR family. And they do not exacerbate the problem by taking a very hot heat dump into the action.

But here is the rub.... The thread had nothing to do with the success or failures of the AR, but you chose to drop your biased opinion about it on a thread that had nothing to do with it. And I like bustin chops, so here I am.

You are right. The fan boys bias about the Success of the AR and Colt the prime contractor of the AR throughout it’s history, has been used as an example of how Robinson and the XCR “should be”. There is the real bias in this discussion.

My argument is I want absolutely NOTHING like the Colt POS, and even with 50 years of history and improvement, that the fundamental problems have not been fixed. Why? The fundamental design is terribly flawed.

Personally, if someone gave me an XCR, I'd love to give it a shot. I may even buy a SCAR in the future. But, the ARs I have do exactly the same as those two rifles. I have more calibers available, more ways to customize and I have a ton of fun shooting them.

I don’t doubt the Colt is a great “fun” gun. Unfortunetly for Colt, particularly their future, that is the best that may be said for them.

You complain of my Bias. I have used the AR in combat, the M14, in combat, the M2 Carbine in combat, etc…..

Of all the weapons I have used in combat, the AR is the only weapon I have observed getting American Marines, wounded and dead in combat because of it’s faulty design, engineering, and manufacturing. Not an occasional situation but en masse.

I do own a SIG 556, SCAR, and XCR. I personally prefer the SCAR. But the XCR has much to recommend it.

Now what are you using for your anti XCR bias, besides internet BS.

Now, if Robinson Arms owns a patent that is being infringed upon, then they need to sue. If they lose, they lose. If they win... well, they win.

That is what every non Magpull AR15/M16/M4 fan boy’s have been saying here.

We ain’t the problem, we are the reaction.

So, we will see.

Yes we will.

Ok, this is definitely straying off topic, but the truth needs to be pointed out on a couple of items regarding recent posts.

Truth? Truth?

Chieftan, you are aware that Colt is not the only manufacturer of AR's, right? This sight is prmarily comprised of civilians and discussing civilian firearms. I would venture that Colt M4geries account for less than 5% of AR ownership here,

You want truth, then make the above statement, which at best is a guess.

Once again our standards are very different.

Also, stop touting Robarms as invincible. They can, have had, and continue to have reliability and accuracy issues, as well as outright breakages. And Alex has proven that he is not the best to deal with in said instance.

Can you point to any NON COLT/MAGBULL/CEREBUS/RRA fan boy that has said the XCR is invincible? Or that Alex Robinson is a warm fuzzy guy? He is not as irrational as Gaston Glock to be sure, but Not warm and fuzzy, most have been asking and in some cases begging for Robinson and the XCR to NOT BE TRASHED by you guys. That’s all, apparently that is to much to ask for.

You guys have been controlling the nature of this thread, not us pro SCAR guys.

and now as everallm said, moving on..........

Quit trashing folks, now move on. Good idea. Waiting................

Go figure.

Fred

 

[Dravur]

You want truth, then make the above statement, which at best is a guess

funny thing about truth... all those claims that 40% of Colt's guns fail, etc... All your claims that the SCAR and XCR are better are what? facts?

Don't think so....
Personal bias maybe, facts.. hardly

The fact that the XCR has had reliability and breakage problems seems to elude you.... and this is from a base of guns measured maybe in the hundreds, maybe a few thousand at most?

 

[MachIVshooter]

Cheiftan-

Did Eugene Stoner kill your dog or torch your house or commit some other horrible atrocity against you? Because there is no logical foundation for such hatred and libel of his design. There is also no high road way to describe the ignorance and outright lies demonstrated in some of your tellings.

 

[chieftain]

funny thing about truth... all those claims that 40% of Colt's guns fail, etc... All your claims that the SCAR and XCR are better are what? facts?

Yea, it sure is funny. I haven’t claimed 40% of Colts fail. I stated, for those either hard of hearing or just obstinate, that in combat I have seen personally, at times 40-50% of the Colt rifles failing to get off more than one shot in real life firefights (some people would call that an extreme sport), some without the cleaning rod able to knock out the spent shell casing, some on much rarer occasion runaway gun , and of course out of time.

FACTS? If you knew more about both the XCR and the SCAR you would have already observed their superior Bolt lugs, and much more robust extractors. But that is a fact only someone who knows these rifles could possibly know.

Obviously you don’t.

Don't think so....
Personal bias maybe, facts.. Hardly

Operative word above, “Don’t THINK so….”
As a Colt fan boy you are certainly entitled to your own opinion, please don’t confuse your bias and lack of information with my real facts, and experience.

The fact that the XCR has had reliability and breakage problems seems to elude you.... and this is from a base of guns measured maybe in the hundreds, maybe a few thousand at most?

Yup, I am sure not one XCR has ever worked properly by your stated standards. Most reports are based around two rifles, over a one year period, 3 years ago. Or do you have personal observations?

Frankly I would not choose the XCR for a service rifle either . Some it's strengths are considered weaknesses by those that do not put much stock in knowing or maintaining their weapons.

I much prefer the SCAR, and apparently someone in the military hierarchy agrees with me/or I with them, as they are now being issued to SpecOps and Rangers as we discuss this issue. (I don't think because everyone who's life is on the line is a pro AR or Colt guy either)

Haven't heard a single complaint about the SCAR in combat, yet. In an earlier post, I put some of the reports coming out about problems with the AR family, again. History repeats itself.

We have been needing a new rifle for 50 years, my biggest regret is that we have not improved on the chambering. But then chambering has been a history of missed opportunities all of it's own.

Got more facts?

Go figure.

Fred

 

[MachIVshooter]

Frankly I would not choose the XCR for a service rifle either . Some it's strengths are considered weaknesses by those that do not put much stock in knowing or maintaining their weapons.

Is barrels flying off of the rifle one of those "strengths"?

I'm beginning to wonder if you are Alex Robinson (or relative/employee)

Oh, I almost forgot:

You want truth, then make the above statement, which at best is a guess.

Reading comprehension. It's critical. Let's try this again

you are aware that Colt is not the only manufacturer of AR's, right? This sight is prmarily comprised of civilians and discussing civilian firearms. I would venture that Colt M4geries account for less than 5% of AR ownership here,

Let's break it down

I said: you are aware that Colt is not the only manufacturer of AR's

That is a fact, a truth

Then I said: I would venture that Colt M4geries account for less than 5% of AR ownership here

"I would venture" means I am guessing. It's an educated guess, but an admitted guess. I cannot fathom how you'd take it any other way. See here: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/venture

 

[kwelz]

Alright Chieftain. If you want people with more AR experience hop on over to m4carbine.net and ask them what they think. I KNOW that most of the members there are not only AR shooters but that many of them are experts in the field. Active LE and .mil. A lot of PMCs, a number of armorers. You know.. People that actually know what they are talking about and have the verifiable resume to back it up. But I will warn you, the tolerance for BS is about zero over there.

I am sorry if you had problems with your m16 or M4 when you were in the service. But you haven't told us the model, how old it was, did you properly maintain it? And you haven't come close to establishing any pattern of failure that is outside the norm for a weapon used in conditions we are talking about.