Rounds per hour: Sustained vs Cyclical rate

[Lost Sheep]

Rounds per hour: Sustained vs Cyclical rate

Just for curiosity's sake and for another thread I discussed the production rate achievable and commented on the claims of some loaders of excess of 250 rounds an hour on Lee's Turret Presses. That's doable. But can you keep it up indefinitely?

If a loader can drop one finished round every 15 seconds, that is 240 RPH (Rounds Per Hour) cyclical rate (3600 seconds divided by 15 seconds = 240). But you can't do that forever without interruptions. You have to stop every once in a while.

So, I knocked out a spreadsheet to allow comparing the two rates depending on the factors that separate the cyclical and sustained rates, namely; Interruptions for checking the powder drop, refilling powder hopper and primer feeder and to stretch your legs and bathroom breaks.

The first set of figures below, I believe, are reasonable for a smooth-running auto-indexing turret press with an automatic powder drop. For progressive presses, the figures are much higher but the principles are the same.

If the process is interrupted once
every 25 rounds for 45 seconds to check the powder drop and
every 100 rounds for 60 seconds to replenish the primer dispenser,
every 50 rounds for 10 seconds to replenish the powder hopper,
every hour for 5 minutes break to stretch your legs

A smooth-running turret press with an automatic powder drop
then 240 RPH cyclic/188 RPH sustained (205 RPH without a break).

Without an automatic powder drop, one round every 30 seconds.
120 RPH/102 RPH/110 RPH

if 20 seconds per,
180 RPH/146 RPH/159 RPH)

A 500 RPH cyclical progressive pencils out at
500 RPH/337 RPH/367 RPH

On a progressive press with a case and bullet feeder), these figures are similarly reasonable by my reckoning
720 RPH/434 RPH/474 RPH

So, when you read anyone's report (boast or complaint) of their throughput, ask yourself how they measured it, what they included and what they left out.

Obviously, I've been bored. Off work sick for a few days. Getting better now, though.

Lost Sheep

edit: My formulas don't work well for batch processing, as done on a single stage.

 

[jmorris]

I put together all of the stuff in this video to take most of the human element out of the process.



It checks the powder charge in every case as part of the process but does stop every 100 until you refill with primers. I have a plastic cup with two lines inside it, one is drawn at 100 bullet level the other at 100 cases level, a scoop of each after I restart the Dillon primer tube filler.

You still can't keep it up indefinitely but can have a lot loaded with little effort.

I generally don't load thousands and thousands of rounds up, I generally load what I need at the time. Having a big pile of SSR loads completed for IDPA and then they lower the power factor is a good example of why you wouldn't want to load out a seasons worth at one time.

I assembled my bullet and case fed machines not so much to make 2000 rounds an hour but to be able to load up 300 rounds for the match on Saturday and spend less than 15 min doing it.

 

[cfullgraf]

So, when you read anyone's report (boast or complaint) of their throughput, ask yourself how they measured it, what they included and what they left out.

Nice information. Hope you are feeling better.

I agree in questioning how folks arrive at their production figures. I figure my rates essentially from the time I turn the lights on in the reloading room until the time I turn them off. So, all downtime is included and gives me a true figure of how long it will take me load up "X" number of rounds.

I know from years, no decades, of reloading, I can load 100 round in an hour on my single stage but that does not translate into 200 rounds if I sit there for 2 hours. The inefficiencies and fatigue start to catch up with me during the second and third hours.

On the progressive, I have not been at it for as long, just a couple years and load so much at one sitting that I do not operate it as frequently. I have some inefficiencies built into my process (I prefer to hand prime off the press) I figure I am in the 200 round per hour range from lights on to lights off.

I find packaging the rounds for storage takes a fair amount of time and puts a serious hit on production rates.

I find any interruption in the process on the progressive also makes a serious hurt on production rates.

 

[RandyP]

Single stage I can maintain my 50-75 rounds per hour output, on my Lee Clasic turret it is 150-175 rounds per hour...at the same relaxed pace.

I reload as an enjoyable passtime for my idle hours so I don't fret much over the actual output numbers.

I have noticed that some folks' output numbers don't take into account their prior case prep like priming off the press, or filling component feeder tubes on press.

 

[mdi]

Intresting info, Sheep. I'm nowhere near 200 rounds per hour or even 100 rounds per hour. My intrests in reloading take a different turn; enjoyment. Lately I had a great time reloading some 30-30 ammo with cast bullets. I turned on the heater in my shop, put on a Johnny Paycheck CD, and got out my Lee Loader. In about an hour (or mebbe more) I had a box (20 rounds) of freshly assembled 30-30 ammo for my Handi-Rifle and enjoyed every minute. I dipped and weighed each powder charge and re-inspected each bullet before seating. For my other "high production" ammo I batch load on my turret press, so I have no idea how many RPH I acheive, and I have way more time to reload than to shoot, so I count my "Rounds per Week" as an indication of my reloading speed...

 

[Jim Watson]

I am kind of like jmorris.
I don't settle down at the progressive and load cases and cases of ammo after filling dozens of primer tubes while watching the evening news.
I use it to load what I need for the next week's practice and match without spending a lot of time at it.
Over the winter I usually get a bit ahead.

 

[RustyFN]

That's looks pretty good Lost Sheep. Here is an example of how I load on the classic turret.

1: I throw 10 powder charges to make sure the pro auto disk is where I want it.
2: I load the safety prime with 200 primers instead of 100.
3: I fill the powder hopper all the way and can load 500 rounds without having to fiil it again for loading pistol.
4: I check the primer on every round as I pull it out of the shell holder on it's way to the ammo box.
5: I check the powder charge once around half way through and again when I'm done.
6: I check OAL around once every 50 to 75.

At a relaxed pace I can reload those 200 in around 1 hour 10 minutes. I can load the same 200 rounds in 55 minutes safely if I want to step it up just a little but I'm not in a hurry. Normally I will load the safety prime again with 200 primers and load those. Load it again with 100 and load those. To load those 500 rounds with the time it takes to refill the safety prime it takes me 3 hours. That averages out to 167 per hour. Again that's at a relaxed pace.

 

[HighExpert]

Caliber makes a huge difference in speed. 45acp will go really fast, 9mm a little slower, 38sp and 357 slower yet and unless you have an arm like a gorilla, .44 will be slooow after the first 50 rd or so. I have averaged 400 rds an hours for a days' loading for a period of 12 hours. Don't want to do it again due to the effort required. I now slow down and enjoy the process a little more and take some breaks. I also had someone else bringing me supplies, loading primer tubes, filling the powder dispenser and getting me soft drinks while I was doing it. I loaded mostly .45acp and a few 9mm in that day. I use a Dillon 550B and have multiple primer tubes.

 

[Utryme]

With my lee turret, I can reliably load about 100-150 per hour using a dps powder system. I don't know how you get any faster on the lee.

 

[RustyFN]

What is dps powder system?

 

[Reefinmike]

whenever I run out of powder or lead for bullets and still want some press time, I knock out a lot of sizing and priming so Im ready to roll when my monthly take of lead gets picked up the first monday of each month. I can get things done on the lee turret a bit faster if I size and prime before loading a batch up. when I have a bowl full of primed 38 cases and a empty tray for fresh ammo, I remove the auto index rod and get crankin. drop a case in, lower the lever to drop powder, give it a half second and in a slightly jerky fashion raise the lever. as im raising the lever, I grab a bullet. once I fully raise the lever, I use my thumb to rotate the turret as im raising the lever to seat and crimp the bullet. as im doing this im grabbing another casing, as I raise the lever, I knock the fresh round out and swap it with a fresh case, fully lower the lever, rotate the turret back to the powder expander as im flipping the round over, feeling to be sure the primer is flush, sitting the round in the tray and grab for another bullet

it takes all of 6-7 seconds to do this and I can pump out a box in about 6 minutes or about 500 rounds an hour if I were able to keep up the pace. thats not the case though. this way I can do 300-350 an hour at a fairly relaxed pace. keep in mind the priming was done beforehand. Using unsized cases with spent primers and the auto indexing, 200-225 rounds an hour isnt too much to ask for. you just gotta have them ninja hands

 

[Hondo 60]

Sorry, but I just don't know (or care) about how "fast" I make ammo.
I get into a nice rhythm & stop every 10th round to weigh the charge.

When I'm done, I'm done, not a second before or after.

If you're timing yourself, that seems awful dangerous to me.
We could get sloppy & make mistakes ....
Just the thought of it makes me shudder.

I'm not trying to flame anyone, just stating my opinion.
of course YMMV

 

[wild willy]

I'am with Hondo 60 on this one I don't care its not a contest.

 

[cfullgraf]

Sorry, but I just don't know (or care) about how "fast" I make ammo.
...

When I'm done, I'm done, not a second before or after.

I agree except I like to know what to expect for the time I have available. I want to be able to finish what I started without having to rush.

Since I hand prime off the press, I only prime what i expect to be able to load in the time I have available. I never leave the reloading room at the end of a session with powder in the powder measure or primed cases in the case block.

Just some of my idiosyncrasies.

 

[Lost Sheep]

Sorry, but I just don't know (or care) about how "fast" I make ammo.
I get into a nice rhythm & stop every 10th round to weigh the charge.

When I'm done, I'm done, not a second before or after.

If you're timing yourself, that seems awful dangerous to me.
We could get sloppy & make mistakes ....
Just the thought of it makes me shudder.

I'm not trying to flame anyone, just stating my opinion.
of course YMMV

I couldn't agree more.

EXTREME danger lurks when you focus on the wrong goal.

Lost Sheep

 

[ljnowell]

I have made 250 in an hour on my Lee Turret press. I do not do it on a regular basis though. I average anywhere from 150-200 on a regular basis though. Sometimes I will only load 100 an hour.

 

[CGT80]

I can pump out 100 rounds of 9mm in around 3 minutes, a cyclic rate of 2,000 rounds per hour. I can comfortably pump out 300-400 rounds in 20 minutes, which is 5 minutes or more per 100 rounds. The most I have done in one stretch is 600 rounds. My arm got pretty tired and I got bored. I took a couple minutes to rest my arm and check component levels between primer tube fills. I might have spent 40-45 minutes on that batch. This is all on a Dillon 1050 with a Mr. Bulletfeeder.

My other ammo is run on a Dillon 550. I load quite a bit slower on that one. It isn't as reliable of a machine as the 1050 and the 1050 only runs 9mm, always with the same powder and primers, and often times with the same bullets for each batch. It is pretty dialed in. Sometimes I spend a few hours loading up two or three calibers on the 550, and also working up new test loads. I like reloading, but I also get bored with it after a while. Sometimes I get into a relaxing mind set and just work away at it. Loading some of my own cast lead 30-30 bullets last week was a slow process, but was quite enjoyable.

I am very careful with my loading and haven't had any squibs or overcharges yet........knock on wood. I can see both points of view regarding loading speed, and cyclic rate is much faster than sustained rate. It takes me 1 minute and 8 seconds to load a primer tube by hand, so that adds into my reloading time. I have 2-3 larger primer tubes and 8-10 small tubes. For 9mm, I load up all the tubes ahead of time.

 

[jmorris]

I couldn't agree more.

EXTREME danger lurks when you focus on the wrong goal.

This is a fact, the numbers that I could find were a few years old but in 2008 20 people were killed riding a horse and in 2009, 33945 died in auto accidents.

 

[JLDickmon]

Sorry, but I just don't know (or care) about how "fast" I make ammo.
I get into a nice rhythm & stop every 10th round to weigh the charge.

When I'm done, I'm done, not a second before or after.

If you're timing yourself, that seems awful dangerous to me.
We could get sloppy & make mistakes ....
Just the thought of it makes me shudder.

I'm not trying to flame anyone, just stating my opinion.
of course YMMV

I gotta agree, too.

I really don't give a blast how many rounds per hour I drop..
I care that I remember to put powder in every one (verified by a quick VI before I start seating boolits).

I suppose if I shot competition when I'd run through thousands of rounds of ammo per week, it would be a big fat hairy deal, but I don't, so it ain't.

My turret press is all I've ever needed.

 

[mmorris]

This is a fact, the numbers that I could find were a few years old but in 2008 20 people were killed riding a horse and in 2009, 33945 died in auto accidents.

That's way too many people on one horse

 

[RustyFN]

Sorry, but I just don't know (or care) about how "fast" I make ammo.
I get into a nice rhythm & stop every 10th round to weigh the charge.

When I'm done, I'm done, not a second before or after.

If you're timing yourself, that seems awful dangerous to me.
We could get sloppy & make mistakes ....
Just the thought of it makes me shudder.

I'm not trying to flame anyone, just stating my opinion.
of course YMMV

I agree if you are trying to race or trying to do more than than the time before every time you sit at the press. For me looking at the clock when I start and again when I am finished isn't dangerous for me. Like you said it might be for you or others.

 

[mdi]

CGT80 gets the Gold Star for the fastest arm in the west! 3 minutes per 100, 9mms. Just wondering; is that fun?

 

[beatledog7]

We've covered this before:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=685474&highlight=rounds

I stick with what I said in the linked thread: essentially, if you focus on going fast, it's much more likely that something's gonna go wrong.

 

[CGT80]

CGT80 gets the Gold Star for the fastest arm in the west! 3 minutes per 100, 9mms. Just wondering; is that fun?

It isn't all that fun, but when I am loading up 9mm for $9.18 per 100 rounds, it is better than playing the slot machines at Vegas. Every pull of the handle is a winner (15+ cents) I am using Bear Creek moly coated lead bullets right now, at $57 per 1k. My competition pistol is 9mm and I also reload for my parents who both have 9mm competition pistols. For a while, we were shooting a couple of matches per month at an average of 400 rounds per person, per match. The Dillon 550 wasn't up to the task, and neither was I.

I have gotten into 3 gun lately, so that uses less pistol rounds. My parents haven't been shooting in a few months. I have been plinking with some of my other guns at the private range I just got a membership to. I like to keep enough ammo on hand for 1-2 matches. My dad always procrastinated on loading his ammo, and it is quite a workout for my mom to do. We pooled our money (saved up some brass to sell) and bought the 1050 and bullet feeder. It is easier for me to load the ammo, than bug them to get their loads done. They like to shoot, but won't always make time for it. The machine will go as fast as you can pump the handle. 100 rounds per 3 minutes is 1.8 seconds per cycle of the machine. 38 super and 380 brass will slow things down, when they get mixed in and I don't usually push myself hard (3 minutes is pushing it pretty fast). I am 32 years old, in decent health, and as of a year ago, I had spent 17 years working construction doing labor intensive jobs. I'm sure a number of people here may a bit more life under their belt and may not move quite as fast as a younger person.

Often times a pistol match of 6 stages would only take me in the mid 200 second range (240-270 seconds of shooting for the day). That would be 108-180 targets, with movement throughout the stage. Sometimes I slowly plink away, and other times I go as fast as possible for a competition. My reloading is the same.

I did spend a couple hours sizing/lubing some 400 30 caliber cast lead boolits and sizing 30-30 brass on my 1935 Hollywood single stage turret press, today. Shooting is fun, reloading is interesting and rewarding, plus it kills some time while saving me money. Reloading can be enjoyable, but I don't know if I would really call it fun.

 

[Drail]

Slow down. Life is far too short for drag racing with a press. My wife and I used to both shoot USPSA matches a lot and I loaded all of our ammo for matches and weekly all day practice sessions on a single stage Rock Chucker. Approximately 1000 rounds a week. Took me 4 evenings a week. Go fast in a match. Take your time on the reloading bench. I have seen too many guys blow guns because they were loading on Dillons as fast as they could crank it.