Ruger LCP Vs. Taurus TCP

[MCgunner]

Sig
Overall Length 5.5 in
Overall Height 3.9 in
Overall Width 1.1 in
Weight w/Mag 15.2 oz

Kahr
Length: 5.35"
Height 4.0"
Width: 0.94" (24 mm)
Weight: 15 oz (425g)

KT P11
Length: 5.6"
Height: 4.3"
Width: 1"
Weight unloaded: 14 oz.

According to what I can find, the PM9 is slightly shorter in Length and height than the P11, an ounce heavier, a little narrower, not enough difference that I'd think it make a difference in a pocket. I have no problem with the P11. In fact, I have no problem pocketing my slightly larger Taurus M85UL revolver. There are a lot of guys that pocket carry 642s and other J frames. Maybe you need bigger pockets? Time to go shopping for clothes? Just sayin'.

Not knockin' the sig, just you could be carrying a 9. Suit yourself. I often carry my P64 in 9x18 just because I like it. I do understand that.

 

[kokapelli]

I like my clothes the way they are and I just don't feel comfortable with the PM9 or P11 in my pocket.

I had a P11 about 8 or 9 years ago but could never get use to the trigger. When KT came out with the PF9 I thought I might like it and IMO it's trigger wasn't bad but the PM9 is so much better I decided to get rid of the PF9 and I carry a 380 most of the time anyway but I always have a hi capacity 9mm nearby in the car.

 

[MCgunner]

I prefer a long trigger pull in a pocket pistol and I shoot it well. To each his own on that.

I ride bikes a lot, don't carry a "car gun" when I'm in the car. What's on me is what I got. Mostly in summer I pocket carry. I'm retired, so i can wear what I want. I always could anyway having a technical job, not an office guy.

Now, my P11 gets the most carry, but I'm not one of those guys that thinks a .380, even a .22, will bounce off. I feel pretty confident in .380 and 9x18 to do the job, I just have been shooting this P11 for a long time and, well, 9x19+P does have the edge, plus the thing has more firepower. It's just a no brainer for me why I carry it and shoot it so much. I do like the DA, safe, long, very smooth with a slight stage to allow for excellent shot placement in slow fire. But, I've gotten used to it. It takes a few hundred rounds. It is an inherently safe trigger for pocket carry, but then I'm not saying the Kahr or the Ruger or the Sig isn't. If I carried the sig, I'd probably carry it hammer down condition 2, though. That is not my preferred system and not desirable to me. I'd pass on the sig for that reason alone. But, everyone has their preferences. Those are mine.

I want a concealed hammer revolver, too, sorta. But, I like the body guard style, shrouded hammer. I never have a problem with the hammer spur on the 85, though. I draw with my thumb against the hammer. That gun has the sweetest DA I've ever felt out of the box. Beats the heck out of the run of the mill J frame anyway, new one anyway.

 

[kokapelli]

I prefer a long trigger pull in a pocket pistol and I shoot it well. To each his own on that.

I ride bikes a lot, don't carry a "car gun" when I'm in the car. What's on me is what I got. Mostly in summer I pocket carry. I'm retired, so i can wear what I want. I always could anyway having a technical job, not an office guy.

Now, my P11 gets the most carry, but I'm not one of those guys that thinks a .380, even a .22, will bounce off. I feel pretty confident in .380 and 9x18 to do the job, I just have been shooting this P11 for a long time and, well, 9x19+P does have the edge, plus the thing has more firepower. It's just a no brainer for me why I carry it and shoot it so much. I do like the DA, safe, long, very smooth with a slight stage to allow for excellent shot placement in slow fire. But, I've gotten used to it. It takes a few hundred rounds. It is an inherently safe trigger for pocket carry, but then I'm not saying the Kahr or the Ruger or the Sig isn't. If I carried the sig, I'd probably carry it hammer down condition 2, though. That is not my preferred system and not desirable to me. I'd pass on the sig for that reason alone. But, everyone has their preferences. Those are mine.

I want a concealed hammer revolver, too, sorta. But, I like the body guard style, shrouded hammer. I never have a problem with the hammer spur on the 85, though. I draw with my thumb against the hammer. That gun has the sweetest DA I've ever felt out of the box. Beats the heck out of the run of the mill J frame anyway, new one anyway.

You should like the Micro Desert Eagle. It has a long heavy trigger but I think better than the P11 trigger and the Micro though a little heavy is very small.

 

[kokapelli]

Add on that the LCP is basically the single pistol that pushed the .380 craze, or at least the biggest player, and those numbers quickly become over inflated compared to the others in the class.

So you think the Ruger imitation of the P-3AT is what started the 380 craze!

My memory isn't as good as it used to be so to I rummaged through my file and found the exact production figures that were posted on the ATF website for the Kel-Tec P-3ATs from 2003 through 2005.

Kel-Tec sold 100,000 P-3AT pistols from it's first production in 2003 through 2005. Thats right one hundred thousand in about 2-1/2 years and productions was rapidly ramping up each year. Clearly Ruger jumped on the bandwagon with a P-3AT imitation after KT started, in your words "the 380 craze."

 

[benzy2]

Yes, Keltec did sell 91000 pistols in that 2.5 year stretch but when introduced in 2008 alone Ruger sold 83,000 in a partial sales year. We can argue over this if you want. I did say the LCP was "at least the biggest player" in the .380 craze, which as your link proves, is true. In 2008 that was by far the case selling roughly 35,000 more pistols in .380 than keltec. Sure the .380 was around far before that, but when the LCP came out .380 sales in across the board went from 138k to 279k, though Sig did bump their .380 sales substantially as well in 2008. Claim what you want. My point was that the LCP, since its introduction, has been the best selling .380 by a fair margin and in the year it was introduced .380 sales doubled. I call that being the biggest player in the .380 craze. You call it what you want.

 

[kokapelli]

Yes, Keltec did sell 91000 pistols in that 2.5 year stretch but when introduced in 2008 alone Ruger sold 83,000 in a partial sales year. We can argue over this if you want. I did say the LCP was "at least the biggest player" in the .380 craze, which as your link proves, is true. In 2008 that was by far the case selling roughly 35,000 more pistols in .380 than keltec. Sure the .380 was around far before that, but when the LCP came out .380 sales in across the board went from 138k to 279k, though Sig did bump their .380 sales substantially as well in 2008. Claim what you want. My point was that the LCP, since its introduction, has been the best selling .380 by a fair margin and in the year it was introduced .380 sales doubled. I call that being the biggest player in the .380 craze. You call it what you want.

Ok so just ignore the fact that by 2005 almost a 100,000 P3ATs were sold by a small independent co and we don't even know how many more P3ATs were sold after 2005 and until Ruger realized, because of the P3AT success they needed to jump into the pond and finally they produced their imitation of the P3AT.

Clearly whether you like their pistols or not Kel-Tec started the ball rolling a few years before the Ruger imitation of the P3AT even came to market.

Of course everyone wanted a Seecamp but their production was so small and they are so pricey that at the time there wasn't a huge amount of interest in the Seecamp, but when Kel-Tec introduced a very light and thin 380 sales of their P3AT exploded. How can you possibly deny that fact?

If it were not for the P3AT succsess there would probably not even be an LCP or TCP or the other pocket 380s now on the market!

I think Seecamp probably deserves a lot of credit too because the Seecamp more than likely inspired KT to produce a 380 for the masses.

 

[benzy2]

Why is this even being discussed? I never said kel-tec wasn't out before Ruger and the the LCP isn't a huge copy of the P3AT. I never said Kel-tec didn't sell quite a few pistols before Ruger entered the market. My point was, and is, that when introduced, the LCP topped sales in the .380 market by a fair margin and that .380 sales across the board doubled. I'm not implying anything about Kel-tec or it's production capability. I'm not debating that they weren't selling 40k pistols a year in .380 before the LCP came out. Again, in 2008, the introduction of the LCP lead .380 sales and all .380 sales doubled. That is ALL I was saying. You continuously put words in my mouth I wasn't saying or implying. I never have stated the P3AT wasn't or isn't a success, that it isn't the spur that pushed Ruger into the .380 market, or anything to do with Seecamp and their production capabilities. Why are you getting defensive about this? I don't understand why this debate is even going on to be honest. The numbers up to 2008 are on the ATF website that you linked so we do know what Kel-tec sold. They are quite impressive numbers and they held the dominate position in the .380 market for a good run. Again, I'm not ignoring that nor discrediting it.

ALL I am trying to say is that the year the LCP entered the market it was the best selling .380 by a fair margin and in that year (2008) sales of .380 pistols doubled from just under 140k to just under 280k. Please don't take anything more from that statement than face value. Don't take that as a slam against Kel-tec, Seecamp, Sig, Taurus, etc. I'm not trashing any of those companies. I was trying to show that since introduced it has sold phenomenally well, leading the market in a time the market was booming. The original post you continue to quote was made in reference to a post stating that the Ruger had numerous links when googled regarding problems compared to the P238 and the TCP, nothing to do with Keltec. The response and point was that the LCP sold more than the rest in the years it has been produced. If you extrapolate the numbers out through 2009 and up to date, it would put Ruger covering the head start Kel-tec had, but that is all speculative.

I hope I am clear. You missed the entire point of that post your quoted. It was to point out that while some people can claim there are an extreme amount of links to Ruger LCPs with problems, they have outsold the TWO SPECIFIC PISTOLS being compared at that time, and that many of those problem links were in reference to the recall. Don't make it more than what it is.

 

[MCgunner]

George Kelgren was way ahead of his time with the baby .380s. I have a Grendel P12, itself a successor to the ill fated P10. It's not that great a gun, very rough DA trigger, flawless functioning, but not real accurate. I can hit a paper plate every shot rested from sand bags at 25, but the rough trigger is hard to overcome off hand. But, it was a predecessor to Kel Tec. It is 12 ounces, the same length and height as a LCP, but 1" wide due to an 11 round double stack magazine. It's a blow back gun. When Kelgren designed the locked breach P3AT, he could thin and lighten the slide and produce a REALLY compact little gun. The P11 came along first, the P12s natural successor, and MUCH better ergos on the trigger and smoother trigger action than it's P12 daddy. I never shoot that old Grendel, but I keep it. It's probably only got a couple thousand rounds through it and I've had it 20 years or near so. I know it's pre-Clinton magazine ban. Couldn't sell it for much and it functions fine. For a while, I was carrying it in a back pocket of a pair of Rustlers until I discovered carpenter's jeans and Wrangler Cargos. They have bigger front pockets.

Yeah, Ruger was a copy cat, but it's a nice gun, too. Virtually ALL the micro .380s came from Kelgren's designs. He was the innovator. I think he might have seen the CCW market coming before anyone else did. If Bill Ruger hadn't passed on, we might never seen the LCP, either. HE was NOT a friend of private gun owners and carriers.

You should like the Micro Desert Eagle. It has a long heavy trigger but I think better than the P11 trigger and the Micro though a little heavy is very small.

You know, I've looked that gun over, but never tried the trigger. Thanks for the heads up. It's a little pricey, but it's a tiny little thing.

 

[kokapelli]

Why is this even being discussed? I never said kel-tec wasn't out before Ruger and the the LCP isn't a huge copy of the P3AT. I never said Kel-tec didn't sell quite a few pistols before Ruger entered the market. My point was, and is, that when introduced, the LCP topped sales in the .380 market by a fair margin and that .380 sales across the board doubled. I'm not implying anything about Kel-tec or it's production capability. I'm not debating that they weren't selling 40k pistols a year in .380 before the LCP came out. Again, in 2008, the introduction of the LCP lead .380 sales and all .380 sales doubled. That is ALL I was saying. You continuously put words in my mouth I wasn't saying or implying. I never have stated the P3AT wasn't or isn't a success, that it isn't the spur that pushed Ruger into the .380 market, or anything to do with Seecamp and their production capabilities. Why are you getting defensive about this? I don't understand why this debate is even going on to be honest. The numbers up to 2008 are on the ATF website that you linked so we do know what Kel-tec sold. They are quite impressive numbers and they held the dominate position in the .380 market for a good run. Again, I'm not ignoring that nor discrediting it.

ALL I am trying to say is that the year the LCP entered the market it was the best selling .380 by a fair margin and in that year (2008) sales of .380 pistols doubled from just under 140k to just under 280k. Please don't take anything more from that statement than face value. Don't take that as a slam against Kel-tec, Seecamp, Sig, Taurus, etc. I'm not trashing any of those companies. I was trying to show that since introduced it has sold phenomenally well, leading the market in a time the market was booming. The original post you continue to quote was made in reference to a post stating that the Ruger had numerous links when googled regarding problems compared to the P238 and the TCP, nothing to do with Keltec. The response and point was that the LCP sold more than the rest in the years it has been produced. If you extrapolate the numbers out through 2009 and up to date, it would put Ruger covering the head start Kel-tec had, but that is all speculative.

I hope I am clear. You missed the entire point of that post your quoted. It was to point out that while some people can claim there are an extreme amount of links to Ruger LCPs with problems, they have outsold the TWO SPECIFIC PISTOLS being compared at that time, and that many of those problem links were in reference to the recall. Don't make it more than what it is.

Simple! Because you said the LCP is responsible for the 380 craze and I'm simply supplying the facts to show that your wrong. Is that so difficult to understand!

 

[kokapelli]

George Kelgren was way ahead of his time with the baby .380s. I have a Grendel P12, itself a successor to the ill fated P10. It's not that great a gun, very rough DA trigger, flawless functioning, but not real accurate. I can hit a paper plate every shot rested from sand bags at 25, but the rough trigger is hard to overcome off hand. But, it was a predecessor to Kel Tec. It is 12 ounces, the same length and height as a LCP, but 1" wide due to an 11 round double stack magazine. It's a blow back gun. When Kelgren designed the locked breach P3AT, he could thin and lighten the slide and produce a REALLY compact little gun. The P11 came along first, the P12s natural successor, and MUCH better ergos on the trigger and smoother trigger action than it's P12 daddy. I never shoot that old Grendel, but I keep it. It's probably only got a couple thousand rounds through it and I've had it 20 years or near so. I know it's pre-Clinton magazine ban. Couldn't sell it for much and it functions fine. For a while, I was carrying it in a back pocket of a pair of Rustlers until I discovered carpenter's jeans and Wrangler Cargos. They have bigger front pockets.

Yeah, Ruger was a copy cat, but it's a nice gun, too. Virtually ALL the micro .380s came from Kelgren's designs. He was the innovator. I think he might have seen the CCW market coming before anyone else did. If Bill Ruger hadn't passed on, we might never seen the LCP, either. HE was NOT a friend of private gun owners and carriers.



You know, I've looked that gun over, but never tried the trigger. Thanks for the heads up. It's a little pricey, but it's a tiny little thing.

I have no problem with Ruger copying the KT after all imitation is the highest form of flattery and competition is good for the consumer. I might have even purchased an LCP if I had liked the trigger more but that's just me.

I have a Ruger SR9 and a 22/45 and like Ruger products plus I live just 90 minutes from the Ruger factory.

You should try and shoot a Micro Eagle before thinking about getting one because it's a blowback and has pretty stiff recoil but nothing that should be a problem when you need it and mine has been utterly reliable with every kind of ammo I've tried.

 

[kokapelli]

Shooting my TPC today I discovered that like the P-3AT and the LCP, the TPC does indeed put smilies in the bullet of the next round in the magazine.

That's the bad news! The good news is unlike the P-3AT/LCP the smilies are so shallow as to be hardly noticeable.

 

[benzy2]

Simple! Because you said the LCP is responsible for the 380 craze and I'm simply supplying the facts to show that your wrong. Is that so difficult to understand!

I guess it all depends on your idea of the .380 craze and the start of it. I would put it in 2008 when .380 sales doubled from 140k to 280k. If you define it as a different time then there would be different causes. In the timeframe I am referring to the LCP was the biggest player and arguably the biggest push, which my post originally claimed. I'm talking about this timeframe. In that timeframe the posts I have made have been correct, regardless of previous sales and pushes. If you want to call the .380 craze 2003-2005 then my point is invalid, but I was referring to the last couple years.

I went back and looked at the sales of .380 pistols since 1998.

1998 = 100k
1999 = 80k
2000 = 110k
2001 = 40k
2002 = 60k
2003 = 80k
2004 = 70k
2005 = 110k
2006 = 130k
2007 = 140k
2008 = 280k

While many of those years show a great increase in pistols produced, the jump in 2008 is by far, at least to me, the ".380 craze", not something prior. Sure there was demand, but what in those numbers looks like the craze to you? So look at 2008, and who made the most pistols by a fair margin, and tell me that the LCP wasn't the biggest player in the 2008 .380 craze, which is exactly what my original point was.

 

[kokapelli]

I guess it all depends on your idea of the .380 craze and the start of it. I would put it in 2008 when .380 sales doubled from 140k to 280k. If you define it as a different time then there would be different causes. In the timeframe I am referring to the LCP was the biggest player and arguably the biggest push, which my post originally claimed. I'm talking about this timeframe. In that timeframe the posts I have made have been correct, regardless of previous sales and pushes. If you want to call the .380 craze 2003-2005 then my point is invalid, but I was referring to the last couple years.

What a bunch of gobble de gook! What is this, another what the meaning of "is" is?

Now your using "time frames!" You keep switching the argument.

The demand was there because of the P-3AT and Ruger just used good business sense and jumped in.

The P-3AT configuration was so popular that every board had posts about how people wished one of the bigger and more well known gun makers would produce a pistol like the P-3AT.

It's about who started it and it sure wasn't Ruger. Ruger was a Johnny Come Lately and jumped in after the P-3AT wave had already started.

KT sold almost 100,000 P-3ATs in just 2-1/2 years! I suppose that was just a blip to you because you own a Ruger! KT was running at it's maximum possible production and was constantly increasing it production capability in order to keep up with the demand.

Is it impossible for you admit that the start of the small, thin and light 380 pocket pistol exploded with the introduction of the P-3AT?

Oh I know how so many people on these boards think and if it's not the pistol they have it just can't be as good as theirs!

You just can't give credit where credit is due can you!

Yes Ruger with it's much larger production facility took it much farther than KT was capable of doing but the explosion clearly started with the P-3AT.

Sorry but in this case your wrong!

 

[MCgunner]

I kinda thought the latest (not including the James Bond inspired) .380 "craze" was spawned by the advent of shall issue CCW laws, not a particular gun. Kel Tec was there and ready to pounce when it happened. They were the first with a true pocket 9 and then they brought along the P3AT. When I bought my P11 in 96, it had the Kahr K9 and the Glock 26 as competition. The Pocket 9 thing has exploded, too, right along with the .380 thing and it's all because of CCW laws IMHO. There wouldn't otherwise be a big market.

 

[kokapelli]

I kinda thought the latest (not including the James Bond inspired) .380 "craze" was spawned by the advent of shall issue CCW laws, not a particular gun. Kel Tec was there and ready to pounce when it happened. They were the first with a true pocket 9 and then they brought along the P3AT. When I bought my P11 in 96, it had the Kahr K9 and the Glock 26 as competition. The Pocket 9 thing has exploded, too, right along with the .380 thing and it's all because of CCW laws IMHO. There wouldn't otherwise be a big market.

The James bond guns are a different catagory and not as pocketable as the P-3AT/LCP etc sized guns.

The more I think about it I think the desire for the micro pocket sized 380s has been there for a long time and probably really came about with the Seecamp 32cal pistol but it was too expensive for many and even if you could afford it the wait sometimes years was just too much for most people but when the p-32/P-3ATs arrived on scene we had pocketable pistols that everyone could afford and we didn't have to wait for years to get one and that is when the rush/wave really started.

 

[gofastman]

Children, lets get back on topic.

I like the way th TCP feels in my hand, It has a better trigger too. I didn't care for how the LCP felt when I shot it, I would buy the TCP if I were to pick up a pocket .380

 

[stchman]

To kokapelli:

I did not knock the Sig P238. It just amazes me that the thread is entitled LCP or TCP and the Sig fanboys want to come chiming in.

As far as being 3-4 times better if you think so then it must be true. As far as having a SAO CCW pistol I think it is not a good idea. Under stressful situations your motor skills will decrease dramatically. The action of taking the gun from holster/pocket and then having to flip the safety is not a a good thing when you are fearing for your life.

I know all the people say "I can do it". Truth is nearly all of us have not been confronted by a mugger/burglar/rapist/etc. with a gun or knife and we have to protect our lives. I guarantee that at the very least I would be VERY stressed and have adrenaline flowing.

I want a pistol that all I have to do is pull the trigger. I don't want to have to fumble around with a safety as my motor skills will probably be somewhat impaired.

If the Sig is to your liking then fine.

 

[stchman]

I had a P11 and ended up selling it. The one I had had difficulty and had FTEs too much. Not to mention that it was a chore to fire the thing. A 9mm in a 14oz package really kicks hard.

The LCP kicks pretty hard, but not as bad as the P11.

Also I felt the workmanship and fit/finish was not what it should be.

I ended up selling the gun.

 

[harmon rabb]

A 9mm in a 14oz package really kicks hard

believe it or not, my taurus 709 slim (18.5oz) soaks up recoil like a full size. supposedly the TCP soaks up recoil better than the LCP. something in the taurus designs really helps, apparently.

my pf-9 and 709 are like night and day when shot back to back.

 

[kokapelli]

believe it or not, my taurus 709 slim (18.5oz) soaks up recoil like a full size. supposedly the TCP soaks up recoil better than the LCP. something in the taurus designs really helps, apparently.

my pf-9 and 709 are like night and day when shot back to back.

I have a TCP and yes it does have less felt recoil and and a better trigger than the LCP.

 

[MCgunner]

My 14 ounce P11 I have no problem at all with recoil OR the trigger. I bought a Polish P64 in 9x18 and everyone said it kicked. I poo fawed thinkin' just how bad could 19 ounce 9x18 be compared to a full power +P 14 ounce 9 which doesn't bother me? Well, I gotta tell ya, I ate some crow on that one. I had to wear a shooting glove with that little fart to make it through 50 rounds. I added a 22 lb recoil spring on advice from the guys on this board and a set of Marschal grips and I don't use the shooting glove anymore. Ergos and such seem to have a lot to do with felt recoil. That little P11 I've got in my pocket right now just fits me perfectly. Now, I point that P64 well, but the way the back of the grip was shaped, the web of my hand absorbed the whole impact. It kinda hurt after a while. The spring softened the blow and the grips have a palm swell that redistributes the blow to help the palm absorb some of it.

I've not fired either the LCP OR the TCP. I can't say how they'd be to shoot. But, considering the diminutive size of the grip and the under 10 ounce weight, I'd think they COULD be worse than one of the compact 9s. The P11 helps in that the grip is wider, too, and I have a finger groove sleeve on it. I have a finger extension on my spare mag, but carry it with the flat plate mag in my pocket and usually shoot at the range with that mag.

 

[kokapelli]

My 14 ounce P11 I have no problem at all with recoil OR the trigger. I bought a Polish P64 in 9x18 and everyone said it kicked. I poo fawed thinkin' just how bad could 19 ounce 9x18 be compared to a full power +P 14 ounce 9 which doesn't bother me? Well, I gotta tell ya, I ate some crow on that one. I had to wear a shooting glove with that little fart to make it through 50 rounds. I added a 22 lb recoil spring on advice from the guys on this board and a set of Marschal grips and I don't use the shooting glove anymore. Ergos and such seem to have a lot to do with felt recoil. That little P11 I've got in my pocket right now just fits me perfectly. Now, I point that P64 well, but the way the back of the grip was shaped, the web of my hand absorbed the whole impact. It kinda hurt after a while. The spring softened the blow and the grips have a palm swell that redistributes the blow to help the palm absorb some of it.

I've not fired either the LCP OR the TCP. I can't say how they'd be to shoot. But, considering the diminutive size of the grip and the under 10 ounce weight, I'd think they COULD be worse than one of the compact 9s. The P11 helps in that the grip is wider, too, and I have a finger groove sleeve on it. I have a finger extension on my spare mag, but carry it with the flat plate mag in my pocket and usually shoot at the range with that mag.

The LCP and TCP are not nearly as bad because like your P11 they have a locked breech action that absorbs some of the recoil While the P64 is a blowback action that produces a lot more felt recoil.

I don't have a problem with any of the 380 minis when it comes to recoil.

IMO the TCP has a little less felt recoil than the LCP.

 

[MCgunner]

Well, none of 'em match a .45-70 in a Contender for recoil, so none of 'em really bother me. Guys that complain about 9s and .380s tickle me. I will say, though, that one shot out of that .45-70 ain't much worse than one shot out of a 12 ounce J frame .357 magnum with a full house 180 grain buffalo bore equivalent handload. I've done that before just for the experience, not my gun, think I'll take a pass. I never bought the .45-70, either. My buddy's convinced me it was overkill for deer and hogs and for the shooter so I got a .30-30 barrel. There's another gun who's grip shape bothers me with hot loads. The .30-30 is a compensated barrel, isn't bad on the hand, rough on the ears if you forget your muffs. But, my hot .45 Colt loads in it are painful with the .45 barrel. In my Ruger Blackhawk they're not bad at all, another demonstration of how grip shape can matter with recoil. The TC is much heavier with a scope on it than the Blackhawk, but much more painful to shoot with the same load.

 

[Steve 48]

I had the Ruger LCP, the Taurus TCP and the P3AT and the TCP shoots better, more accurate and reliable for me. The lite hits on the primer can be fixed by Taurus and its a 2 week turn around and no cost to you. There's no question about which one I carry. Of course, the Sigarms and Walther are high end guns and are better pistols but who wants to carry a summer gun in your pocket and pay $500 or more for a 380. The TCP works for me and on a man size target, I can put 50 rounds into the head at 10 yards. No question about a gun that will get worn and ugly from carry but shoots like that.