Rugers new .308 Scout rifle great but, is the socom16 the best concept??

[jlott00]

i really like the new ruger rifle, but as i watched the "show" (commercial) i thought.... this makes me think the socom16 is one of the best rifle concepts out there?a "do-all".....

they claim a 180-200 fps drop from a 22' barrel to a 16in

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFhM0NHsYLk

 

[goon]

What's the weight on the Socom?
I have carried rifles around enough to know that there is a difference between what you'd ideally want to have with you in a fight (I'd take a M-240B with three buddies to carry as much linked 7.62x51 as I could find) versus what will be convenient enough to pack that you'll probably always have it handy (such as a scout style rifle, lever action 30-30, or even an AR if you don't anticipate dealing with any overly tough four-legged animals).
If the Socom comes close enough to a Scout or other nice handy rifle, I'd say why not?

 

[BikerRN]

In my opinion the SOCOM is an overweight pig.

The Gunsite Scout barely meets spec when it's not kitted out as a Scout, but it still weighs less than the SOCOM. Heavy rifles, while great to shoot aren't so great to carry. In my expirience with both rifles I've found the Gunsite rifle to be fast at swinging through multiple targets, easy to carry, and a pleasure to shoot. I've also found it to be one of the most accurate out of the box rifles on the market.

The SOCOM isn't as "handy" nor as accurate in my expirience. That takes it out of the running for me. If I want a .308 caliber autoloading battle rifle I'll get a FAL. The almost two pound difference between the two rifles is really noticed at the end of a long day.

The Scout Rifle was not designed, nor intended to be a battle rifle, but rather a rifle one could press in to service as a battle rifle if needed. It is a general purpose, "handy" rifle that one carries and has with them all the time, much like the Lever Action behind the seat of the truck for an analogy. It can be used to perform a variety of task quite well, but specializes in none of them.

BikerRN

 

[Uteridge]

I have one of their old Frontier Rifles and have found that it is just the trick for brush hunting in Missouri with a Ching Sling that I picked up at Gunsite. I do wish it had a detachable magazine and backup sights. Ruger, you got me again but this time I am not falling for your tricks. I will wait until they come out with a lighter weight version of this rifle that is a true scout and pick that up. In the mean time my Frontier Rifle will do just fine.

BTW, my Frontier is very accurate for a rifle with a 16" barrel and it does a number on Missouri Whitetail Deer. I would have to say that it is on my short list of rifles that are just handy to have around. I always get a few looks when I pull it out of the case on the range but when I start shooting and my short rifle with the funny scope is shooting better groups than guys sitting on the bench with a 7mm Mag the looks turn to envy.

 

[Art Eatman]

Don't compare a scout-concept rifle with a battle rifle. Totally different uses. Never forget that a scout is trying his best to avoid an encounter with a hostile. He's scouting. Firefight = failure.

 

[Uteridge]

I think the OP's point was to use a SOCOM 16 as a scout rifle not using a scout rifle as a battle rifle. There is some overlap between the two when you start talking about short barreled battle rifles. It is a valid argument to make except that the increased weight of a SOCOM 16 negates much of what you look for in a scout type rifle.

The true niche of a SOCOM 16 is CQB not an all around handy rifle; though they do make a good truck gun. I wouldn't want to carry a SOCOM 16 all day on top of all the other gear that you have to carry when you are in an austere environment.

It is a fair comparison to make if your body type allows you to carry something like a SOCOM all day with relative comfort. Remember that Col Cooper's scout rifle concept was built around his concept of an all around handy rifle. His dimensions worked for him. If you are 6 foot 5 and a pretty solid 260 lbs a SOCOM 16 may be just as handy for you as a scout was for Col Cooper. I on the other hand am about the same size a Col Cooper was and his measurements for the perfect all around packing rifle for general use suit me fairly well so I stick fairly close to them.

 

[7.62NATO]

I don't understand the discussion here. Are we looking at the SOCOM as a "do-all" rifle or discussing if the Ruger Scout is lighter?

If I were looking for a "do-all" rifle I think the SOCOM would be a great choice. I own a standard M1A and love it (wish I would have gone with the SOCOM). The .308 caliber is excellent for knock down power. It is heavier than the Ruger obviously because of its autoloading gas system.

I don't see a bolt action ever being a "do-all" rifle because there are just some things it doesn't do well (engage multiple targets at short ranges very quickly).

 

[jlott00]

My discussion was that (minus weight) isnt the socom the better/best do all rifle?

 

[sappnasty]

The Socom is excellent for what it was designed for....it's a battle rifle people not a match rifle. IMO the best choice of any weapon in the battle rifle class.

 

[axeman_g]

No... a 16' 7.62x51 is just not a great solution to a problem that did not exist. 16" loses to much power from 18" barrel, it is obnoxiously loud and kicks harder then longer barrel guns. Plus that gun is way to heavy. I think the M1a Scout is a better gun because of the 18" barrel is a very good length, but the scout scope location is not needed. I do like the Bush Gun configuration.
The gunsite scout is a good gun but also not great. Too heavy, bright metal, laminated stock and overpriced mags.
I think 1 down side keeps any gun out of the great range... especially when there are so many very good + guns being sold presently.

 

[sappnasty]

Apparently axeman g you have never shot a Socom rifle in your life or have ever actually looked at any specs, or even held one from what I am gathering....weight is the same on the scout as the scocom 16...which is 8.8 lbs (Check Springfield's site). As far as loss of power..if you consider 30-40fps between an 18-16" barrel "to much"...you are sadly mistaken - ITS NOT A MATCH RIFLE...IT'S A BATTLE RIFLE. Also, the fact that a shorter barrel makes a gun kick harder is total crap....I have a standard M1A and a Socom II...the specially designed muzzle break makes the Socom a real pleasure to shoot....as a matter of fact, my Socom kicks less than my standard and I can accurately aquire and hit targets waaay faster than my standard. Now if your going to try and say a scout is better, more accurate, etc...just remeber...all M1A rifles were designed for different reasons an purposes. SO, to jlott 00, make your own choice from your own research because poeple will claim facts....facts that learned while drinking coffee in their local gun shop.

 

[sappnasty]

Oh Axeman g...you aare definately right about one thing...it is insanely loud

 

[aubie515]

I also think Axeman is talking out of his butt because the Ruger Scout rifle is really light...that is one of the appeals of having a scout type rifle.

The Accurate mags used on the Ruger rifle isn't cheap, but it's not terribly expensive either. You can also use AI mags. AI mags are the standard when it comes to using a mag system in a bolt action rifle.

 

[Jim NE]

I loved the Scout gun sight rifle when I saw a picture of it the other day, but then I saw the price and my heart kind of sank. I'd probably rather go out and look for an old sporterized .303 Enfield in good shape.

 

[Al Thompson]

My beef with the SOCOM is the noise that muzzle brake enhances. I've used a 16.5 inch .308 hunting with no ear damage, but I would not try it with a SOCOM or any other rifle with a brake.

I too like the SA Scout better than the SOCOM.

 

[AK103K]

In my opinion the SOCOM is an overweight pig.

I agree, especially in regards to a "scout" rifle.

Ive had a Savage Scout for a number of years now, and Ive also owned a SOCOM. For a general purpose rifle, the Savage wins hands down. Its lighter, better handling, and more accurate. The only thing the SOCOM has over it, is its larger mag capacity.


To be realistic here too, we're discussing two different things here in regards to "scout".

The "scout" rifle concept is for a general/all purpose use working gun that fits a certain criteria that enhances that.

As far a Springfield goes, its all a marketing thing, and an attempt to sell more rifles with out really doing anything innovative, other than whacking a barrel, adding a mount, and charging a premium for a coolness factor that actually takes away from instead of improving the host platform.

Now if they got the weight down, gave it a sleek and minimal side folding glass stock that follows the old E2 type stock, put an Ultimak rail on it that allows for a more realistic scope mounting, and allows you to cowitness a dot if you wanted, did away with the brake and went back to the flash hider, and tuned it up a little for accuracy, they might be on to something.

Still, Jenny Craig is going to have her work cut out for her. Maybe Springfield can market it as the "Kirstie Alley Scout" model.

 

[harmonic]

My discussion was that (minus weight) isnt the socom the better/best do all rifle?

You can't ignore the weight. After you install a scope, mounts, sling, full mag, etc, you're looking at toting a nearly 10 pound rifle all day.

I went with a BLR instead. Six pounds with lightweight scope. It makes a difference.

 

[CraigC]

My discussion was that (minus weight) isnt the socom the better/best do all rifle?

How can you ignore the weight??? You can't. Not a big deal if you KNOW you're headed into a fight but that is contrary to the Scout rifle concept. Besides, I don't put much importance on short barrels, though I think the velocity loss is insignificant in the overall scheme of things. If you're totin' a 9lb rifle anyway, what's a few more ounces for a few more inches?

Battle rifles for the battlefied.

Something better suited to its task for everything else.

 

[axeman_g]

dont start pointing fingers. ok.. I exagerated a little in regards to the Ruger... just a little. It is too heavy loaded. I would think a scout gun should be 6pds unloaded. CZ 527 would make a great scout gun.
remeber, this questions was about a scout gun, not M1a.

Look, I personally feel .308 should come out of 20"+ for optimal performance. The drop from from 2600 fps (averaging) to less then 2500 would still hurt, but I dont like it for a medium shooting gun. A 308/7.62x51 is really a 50yd - 800yd cartridge. you shorten that barrel to 16 you end up with a gun designed for less then 400yards.... a battle rifle. A scout gun is not supposed to be a battle rifle and that was what the questions was.

I own a loaded M1a and have shot socoms, I dont like socoms admittedly. They have no purpose other then power under 400yards. I could see that use, but it is not needed. It is heavy, it is loud and it is drastically over hyped/priced. And this was not a comparison to the scout, I do think the scout is the better solution to a MBR then the socom. And that muzzle break does wonders for the extra powder flash. Sorry dont like the gun, I am glad you like yours. Lord knows you prob paid enought for it.

 

[Dr T]

I picked up a Ruger Frontier (the predecessor of the scout) as a "pickup" rifle for the ranch. It is light and handy, and I really don't need a a 10 round magazine. The deer I shot with it this last year at 130 yard did not seem to notice the lower velocity of the 165 gr. bullet. Well, at least the deer didn't say anything to me about it...

 

[Elmer]

Look, I personally feel .308 should come out of 20"+ for optimal performance. The drop from from 2600 fps (averaging) to less then 2500 would still hurt, but I dont like it for a medium shooting gun. A 308/7.62x51 is really a 50yd - 800yd cartridge. you shorten that barrel to 16 you end up with a gun designed for less then 400yards....

It's unfortunate the various military commands that have specified and ordered 16" .308 rifles, to use for long range rifles, including in the sniping role, didn't have your wise council.

The British government's spec for their new long range, marksman rifle, included accuracy out to 800 meters, with non-match, ball ammunition.

How confused the Brits must be, as the winner of their testing was a 16" LMT AR. Their soldiers who have been using the rifle in Afghanistan, and reporting hits out past 800 meters, must be even more confused.

Maybe you can still get to Knight's Armament Company, and tell them that their 16" .308, which is capable of 1/2 MOA out to 800 yards, is really only good for "less than 400 yards". Maybe you can stop them from selling it to various Special Operations groups.

 

[ATCDoktor]

I happen to own all 3 (Ruger GSR, M1A Scout and M1A SOCOM 16).







Of the 3, the Ruger is the lightest and most accurate.

Between the 2 M1A's, the Scout is the most accurate of those two. The Scout averages 2.5 inches at 100 yards with my handloads. The SOCOM is a 3.5-4 inch gun at the same distance.

Ballistically I find I lose very little between the the 16.5 inch barrels and the 18 inch.

People shouldn't believe what they read/hear about velocity in 16" 308/7.62X51.

I cant speak to velocity generated by factory loads but my Handloads of 45 grains of WC844T in LC brass with 165 grain BTSP bullets gives me an average of 2700 FPS in the Ruger and SOCOM 16. They will certainly reach to thr 800 yard mark with authority.

I will concede that the short barrels are loud but there are work arounds for that if your inclined to participate in the NFA process and purchase a suppressor.

Of three I own, two of mine are configured for suppressors.





They work extremely well and provide a recoil dampening effect (due to weight) as well.

Of the 3 the only one I have carried all day long is the SAI Scout. I have carried it hog hunting and have found it to be a little cumbersome/heavy. It would probably be ok if hunting from a Shooting House or Elevated Tripod but for all day carry in thick brush it was a bit of a pain.





I will admit that the suppressor compounded the Scouts issue with portability. Without out it it was a better but the rifle was sighted with it on so I left it in place for the hunt. It performed extremely well on the hunt and I expect that very few bolt gun operators could be as quick on follow up shots as someone with this platform and sighting system (Bushnell Holosight).

With respect to the Ruger, to date I've run about 600 rounds through it and will be carrying it on a late Spring Hog Hunt in TX.

I expect it to perform well.

Is it a battle rifle, I don't think so (although battles have been fought with similar platforms)

Is it a Scout rifle, I don't know.

What I do know is that Ruger GSR is a light handy 308 bolt gun with factory iron sights that has an excellent trigger.

It is extremely accurate and with handloaded ammo it's the ballistc equal to any 308 on the planet.

 

[sappnasty]

Axeman g, I paid $1,378 brand new made to order from Springfield Armory....I'd say thats not bad for what nit retails for. Either way I'm happy and thats all that matters...

 

[axeman_g]

ATCDoktor... those are some fantastic rifles and have ben put to good use. I would love to supress my frifles, but until I move, that aint gonna happen. I would love to move back to Ga, but not until I get the career promotion I want.

Look I dont thing anyone is going to notice a drop in velocity between 16" to 20" barrell when they get hit, it is still going to be moving faster then a .38spl right? So, my main thought, and I am pretty sure it is wrong or someone here is going to tell me how wrong I am again, is that the accuracy will suffer out past 400yds. With a drop in velocity you are going to get a ton of drop correct?

Now, I am surpised the Brits have gone to a 16" LMT... good for LMT. If they are looking for an urban counter sniper/ sniper role, then it is a good choice I quess for them. I know they found their L36 unweildy at times, and many of their snipers walked patrols with the L85A2s. Maybe they are looking to mix in some power with the manueverability.

I do wish I had gotten a scout though... it does seem to be the best of both worlds and the ones I have fired have been almost as acurrate out to 600yds as my loaded.

 

[Elmer]

Look I dont thing anyone is going to notice a drop in velocity between 16" to 20" barrell when they get hit, it is still going to be moving faster then a .38spl right? So, my main thought, and I am pretty sure it is wrong or someone here is going to tell me how wrong I am again, is that the accuracy will suffer out past 400yds. With a drop in velocity you are going to get a ton of drop correct?

Both the LMT MWS 16" and the Knight's 16" EMC are capable of MOA or better at 800 yards.

Now, I am surpised the Brits have gone to a 16" LMT... good for LMT. If they are looking for an urban counter sniper/ sniper role, then it is a good choice I quess for them.

The 16" .308 tender won by LMT was an urgent request, specifically put out to supply UK troops in Afghanistan, hardly an urban conflict. The L129A1 has been fielded and reportedly used with great success there.