Questioning the Scout Rifle concept.

[d2wing]

Like many of his era, he hated the AR. A bolt action is dead reliable, lighter and the .308 is a superior cartridge for some purposes. I do not see the forward mounted scope as an advantage because I am trained in the quick kill technique. To me, a more conventional set up is better for hunting and wilderness survival. If defense is involved a combat rifle is far better. But you pay your money and take your choice.
The detachable box magazine is a nice feature but I fear if you need high capacity in a bolt action you are seriously undergunned.

 

[chicharrones]

I don't see it that way. Something either makes sense or it doesn't. I don't wonder at all why I don't have any scout rifles. They just don't make sense. If they did, I would go out and buy one tomorrow. What I do spend time wondering is why other people have scout rifles. It's like teets on a boar; you simply cannot help but wonder why.

A Scout rifle doesn't make sense to me all the time, but it makes sense to me enough of the time. Much like any other gun I have. Sometimes an AR doesn't make sense to me, or a single action revolver, or a bullpup rifle, or a . . . but then at other times those guns make perfect sense to me.

It's just another option for those that want it in their gun collection.

In honesty, I don't think the size and weight parameters of the scout should necessarily be locked to the .308 cartridge either. Their are some very good lighter recoiling cartridges that adopt to the scout idea very nicely, IMO.

 

[cdb1]

Cooper reminds me of Elmer Keith a little bit.

 

[chicharrones]

Well then you didn't pay much attention. The differences between a Scout and a typical .308 hunting bolt action are as follows:

• Length
• Weight
• Speed loop sling
• Forward mounted telescope (optional)
• Peep/ghost ring iron sights
• Detachable box magazine or stripper clip cut + magazine cutoff

Somehow you picked out the one aspect that's actually optional, and thought it was the point. Oops.

And I think a low power scout scope is the option because those with good eyesight don't need it. Therefore my theory that when the scout scope became preferred is when shooters of the scout rifle starting hitting their 40s and couldn't see the front sight clearly anymore. But they sure could spin the ocular bell on a scope to focus a reticle without having to remove their original and favorite sighting method of a receiver mounted aperture sight.

If one thinks of it that way, a low powered scope is like iron sights for older eyes. IMO, anyway.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

I had a guy come to my range to sight in a couple of his 'scout' rifles. He gave me an earful on the history wonders of Cooper's concept and how there had been these conventions of folks to solidify the concept. He explained to me in detail how his rifles conformed to this concept and Cooper's original intent. The whole time this was going on I kept thinking that it just seemed silly to have the need to build/construct/adapt a rifle to conform to somebody else's perception of what should be right. Sure, the affiliation with Cooper and the "Scout Rifle" moniker is really cool, but why why not just conform to your own standards. Take what you like from the features and use them. Discard those that you don't. And don't worry about whether or not it conforms to some sort of artificial definition.

 

[grampajack]

Well then you didn't pay much attention. The differences between a Scout and a typical .308 hunting bolt action are as follows:

• Length
• Weight
• Speed loop sling
• Forward mounted telescope (optional)
• Peep/ghost ring iron sights
• Detachable box magazine or stripper clip cut + magazine cutoff

Somehow you picked out the one aspect that's actually optional, and thought it was the point. Oops.

The forward mounted scope is the only thing that distinguishes the scout from a plain old carbine. Without that, it's just a contrived name for a more or less standard carbine bolt action setup, like the Jungle Enfield.

On the other hand, if you want to have a bolt action with all those features and a scope mounted above the receiver where it should be, and you want to call it a scout, then that's a solid setup regardless of what you call it. Very outdated concept now that we have very lightweight, highly accurate semi autos, but it would have been the bees knees back in the days when bolt actions were issued to infantrymen.

 

[Varminterror]

The consideration I give the scout "concept" is largely scrutinization of the applicable paradigm where such a rifle is best fielded. It is hard to argue a .308win under 7lbs and under 36" with a fast reloads and a moderate to low power optic and back up irons, deployed with a detachable magazine or stripper compatibility is not highly versatile for a scenario in which the person wielding said carbine could engage limited combatant contact as well as fill a stew pot.

However - considering the era in which we live, and even such the late Colonel lived, I'm not certain I believe such a scenario really exists. I've been fortunate in my life to live in and/or travel to and hunt in many of our great United States, and I really can't say I believe there is a place where I think carrying such a rifle makes sense - legally at least. There are areas in the Southwest where risk of contact with groups of smugglers is possible while hunting, but I can't say I believe a bolt action rifle in 308win is the best option there, and it may or may not be applicable to the game you'd be after. In the remaining "frontiers" of the Great Western States, where bear encounters might be a risk while hunting, again, a .308win bolt action carbine likely isn't a great fit for either the hunt itself nor the incidental bear encounter.

It's a highly versatile platform, without question, and frankly, it is very similar in how I have laid out my few custom DGR's over the years, as it IS a versatile platform.

But if we consider Cooper, born in 1920, meaning he's a young adult in the 1940's, we're not talking about firearms fighting the frontier wilderness as they might have in the century prior. Carrying a rifle for "possibles" isn't really legal for any big game any more, save the few sustanence survival folks way up North, and for them, I could consider a Scout Rifle quite apt. But for the vast majority of Cooper followers, in what real life application is the scout rifle the BEST option at their disposal? I've lived my life with access to over 17,000 acres of hunting ground for the last ~25yrs, and have hunted western states on pack hunts on foot and on mule, and I can't say I have found the area of the US in which I think a .308win carbine is the best option.

Maybe I'm too practical in seeking application, and maybe that means the Cooper Mystique is lost on me - which I do count myself a Cooper fan and I regularly utilize his teachings in my own practice and also in my own instructing of others - but I think there's little more than mystique between an American citizen and a paradigm supporting a survivalist/lawless mentality where I might, at any moment, need to employ the same rifle as a device of hunting OR a device of human assailant defense.

Very fun rifles, very adaptable, but really not great for any given practical purpose stateside.

 

[CoalTrain49]

Cooper reminds me of Elmer Keith a little bit.

Yeah, both a little eccentric. They had some good ideas though, you just have to choose the ones that work for you.

 

[Llama Bob]

The forward mounted scope is the only thing that distinguishes the scout from a plain old carbine. Without that, it's just a contrived name for a more or less standard carbine bolt action setup, like the Jungle Enfield.

Except that's not even remotely true. Had you paid attention to the handy list I provided, you would have come across the first three items - "length", "weight" and "speed loop sling" in addition to the telescope. Even with all the lightening cuts, a Jungle Enfield is two inches longer and a pound and half heavier than a Remington 600 - the typical scout rifle starting point.

Which brings us to a good working definition of the scout rifle: A rifle with the same capabilities as a bolt action military carbine in a package that's shorter, lighter, and equipped with non-military accessories that facilitate faster and more accurate shooting.

 

[grampajack]

Except that's not even remotely true. Had you paid attention to the handy list I provided, you would have come across the first three items - "length", "weight" and "speed loop sling" in addition to the telescope. Even with all the lightening cuts, a Jungle Enfield is two inches longer and a pound and half heavier than a Remington 600 - the typical scout rifle starting point.

Which brings us to a good working definition of the scout rifle: A rifle with the same capabilities as a bolt action military carbine in a package that's shorter, lighter, and equipped with non-military accessories that facilitate faster and more accurate shooting.

I've never seen any specific length and weight requirements. If we're having to quibble over 2'' to define what a scout rifle is, then I think that right there proves the invalidity of the concept as something unique. It's like people who argue that a RECCE and SPR are somehow fundamentally different when they're exactly the same thing. Again, you take away the scope, and it's just a bolt action carbine. Arguing anything different would be like me arguing that by using a specific sling on my AR I've somehow created something original.

 

[Llama Bob]

I find it laughable when people claim they can't figure out what the Scout Rifle's application is. Cooper was quite clear about it - a general purpose field rifle suitable for shots on animals up to elk/moose size or humans at out to about 400y.

So it's really not hard to figure out if the scout rifle is suitable:
- Do you want to shoot it with a rifle?
- Are you afield?
- Is it the same size or smaller than a moose?
- Is it within 400y?

If you answered yes, the Scout Rifle will work just fine. It may make sense to have a couple ammo types if you contemplate multiple target types. Of course, with the DBM or magazine cutoff, provision was made for that.

 

[Llama Bob]

I've never seen any specific length and weight requirements.

Then you've never read a word Cooper wrote about the subject. I understand Cooper's frustration at people criticizing what they don't understand.

 

[grampajack]

Then you've never read a word Cooper wrote about the subject. I understand Cooper's frustration at people criticizing what they don't understand.

You're too dogmatic to have a conversation with. If the concept is invalidated by slight variations in length, weight, and other minutia, then it's not a valid concept to begin with. I find it laughable that it MUST have a certain sling and other somewhat trivial attributes, yet a freaking scope mounted halfway down the barrel is fully optional. So at the end of the day, a scout is simply a bolt action carbine with a scope mounted halfway down the barrel for no apparent reason. You take that away and it's just a plain old bolt action carbine.

 

[chicharrones]

I've never seen any specific length and weight requirements.

These guys seem to be the most ardent keepers of the flame. Much info over there.

http://www.scoutrifle.org/index.php?PHPSESSID=15bm54tv4b6jkua7plfpdi13k2&board=15.0

 

[Jason_W]

So, if I buy a "scout rifle" when I go to the range, am I going to have to endure one group of guys pointing out that it's 1/4" too long and 2 oz too heavy to be a scout rifle, and another group of guys pointing out how horrible a forward mounted scope is?

 

[chicharrones]

So, if I buy a "scout rifle" when I go to the range, am I going to have to endure one group of guys pointing out that it's 1/4" too long and 2 oz too heavy to be a scout rifle, and another group of guys pointing out how horrible a forward mounted scope is?

Only on the internet.

Around other people, no one has ever stopped me to put my pseudo scouts to a tape measure or scale. In fact most people don't say a thing, but I don't hang around true scout rifle aficionados either.

 

[Varminterror]

Except that's not even remotely true. Had you paid attention to the handy list I provided, you would have come across the first three items - "length", "weight" and "speed loop sling" in addition to the telescope. Even with all the lightening cuts, a Jungle Enfield is two inches longer and a pound and half heavier than a Remington 600 - the typical scout rifle starting point.

Come now - play fair - we've largely kicked this thread in discussion of the Ruger GSR 6.5 creed as the contextual basis, which is 6" longer and in all but the synthetic version is about a pound heavier than Cooper's specifications (2lbs heavier than a Rem 600)... so if we're splitting hairs between a Jungle Enfield and a Mohawk, the Ruger gets thrown fully onto the scrap heap too for anything except a synthetic model which has had a nose job.

So either we live in Cooper land and talk about a 33" or less, 6.6lb or less, 308win with irons and a forward mounted optic to allow for topping off or strippers, or we get to live in GSR land and talk about a 7.5lb rifle at 39"+ with detachable mags, but nary the two shall really meet.

Lots of stuff can LOOK like a Cooper Scout, but if a guy tries to disqualify different models based on missing any ONE parameter, the list of qualifiers is really small, and the Ruger in question in this thread misses on multiple counts.

 

[Llama Bob]

You're too dogmatic to have a conversation with. If the concept is invalidated by slight variations in length, weight, and other minutia, then it's not a valid concept to begin with. I find it laughable that it MUST have a certain sling and other somewhat trivial attributes, yet a freaking scope mounted halfway down the barrel is fully optional. So at the end of the day, a scout is simply a bolt action carbine with a scope mounted halfway down the barrel for no apparent reason. You take that away and it's just a plain old bolt action carbine.

You can keep thinking that. You'll keep being wrong of course, but there's nothing stopping that.

My experience is that most criticisms of the scout rifle come from people who have never carried one in the field frequently couldn't even accurately describe what one is. For example there's a substantial difference in capability in terms of accuracy and/or speed between the Scout slings (Ching, CW and Rhodesian) and a military loop sling or simple carry strap. If anything the sling is one of the most important innovations of the Scout Rifle concept, and usable on a wide variety of rifles even if one has no interest in the other attributes of a Scout.

 

[Varminterror]

a general purpose field rifle suitable for shots on animals up to elk/moose size or humans at out to about 400y.

My disqualifier for the scout rifle is the necessity for back up irons and for "easy top off and fast reload" in these conditions. I think it's easy to dismiss a short barreled .308win for elk, let alone moose hunting at 400yrds, but even conceding that point, YTH do I need stripper clip or DBM access so badly for a moose hunt? And given a DBM - agreeably in spirit with Cooper's desires, although DBM's less reliable in his view, so he favored the boxes and strippers, YTH do we need a forward mounted optic?

The paradigm is whimsical, I get that, but it's about as realistic in 2017 as tromping through the mountains wrapped in oiled pelts and buckstitched breeches.

What disqualifies a standard bolt action from using a Ching Sling? I guess I missed that particular memo!

 

[Llama Bob]

Come now - play fair - we've largely kicked this thread in discussion of the Ruger GSR 6.5 creed as the contextual basis, which is 6" longer and in all but the synthetic version is about a pound heavier than Cooper's specifications (2lbs heavier than a Rem 600)... so if we're splitting hairs between a Jungle Enfield and a Mohawk, the Ruger gets thrown fully onto the scrap heap too for anything except a synthetic model which has had a nose job.

The synthetic version of the GSR is the only one that bears much resemblance to the concept as Cooper proposed it. Equipped with a Leupold 2.5x scout scope, Warne QD rings, and a Riflecraft RS1 sling it meets the original requirements, albeit on the heavy side of the range.

As far as other innovations like the 6.5CM caliber, I think it makes sense to evaluate them in terms of how well they serve the intended purpose. Does a 6.5CM have enough oomph to hunt game up to moose size? I'd say yes, with 160gr handloads. So it lacks the ubiquity and travel appeal of .308 but otherwise falls squarely in the spirit of the thing, much like 7mm-08.

 

[grampajack]

You can keep thinking that. You'll keep being wrong of course, but there's nothing stopping that.

My experience is that most criticisms of the scout rifle come from people who have never carried one in the field frequently couldn't even accurately describe what one is. For example there's a substantial difference in capability in terms of accuracy and/or speed between the Scout slings (Ching, CW and Rhodesian) and a military loop sling or simple carry strap. If anything the sling is one of the most important innovations of the Scout Rifle concept, and usable on a wide variety of rifles even if one has no interest in the other attributes of a Scout.

You can put a sling, any type of sling, on any type of rifle. That doesn't reinvent the rifle. The only distinguishing feature of a scout is the forward mounted scope. You can keep making up arbitrary reasons why this isn't the case, but you will keep being wrong.

 

[Llama Bob]

My disqualifier for the scout rifle is the necessity for back up irons and for "easy top off and fast reload" in these conditions. I think it's easy to dismiss a short barreled .308win for elk, let alone moose hunting at 400yrds, but even conceding that point, YTH do I need stripper clip or DBM access so badly for a moose hunt? And given a DBM - agreeably in spirit with Cooper's desires, although DBM's less reliable in his view, so he favored the boxes and strippers, YTH do we need a forward mounted optic?

Part of Cooper's thinking is that the world is not a safe place, and a rifle intended for a moose hunt may end up being used in other ways. I can see his point. While your typical land owner will presumably take 99.9+% of his shots at predators, it's hard to ignore the various smugglers, tweakers, pot growers, poachers, moonshiners etc. that have a tendency to set up shop on other people's land.

The paradigm is whimsical, I get that, but it's about as realistic in 2017 as tromping through the mountains wrapped in oiled pelts and buckstitched breeches.

Not following you here - seems to me to be eminently practical for anyone who's not exactly sure what they're going to be shooting or where. The landowner who could end up having to unexpectedly (legally) shoot anything from a feral dog to a bear to a criminal would be an obvious example.

What disqualifies a standard bolt action from using a Ching Sling? I guess I missed that particular memo!

Nothing assuming you make the required stock modification - many of the good ideas in the scout rifle are still good ideas separately.

 

[Llama Bob]

You can put a sling, any type of sling, on any type of rifle.

Actually, no, you can't - at least without modification. You keep showing your ignorance. Try attaching a Ching sling to a normally configured rifle stock and report back how that goes for you

 

[Varminterror]

I guess I'm just not as paranoid as Cooper in that regard. I've walked out alone and pack hunted in the Southwest among the Coyotes and among the bears in the north and the west. A .308 bolt gun isn't the first thing which comes to mind as ideal for either application.

Actually, no, you can't - at least without modification. You keep showing your ignorance. Try attaching a Ching sling to a normally configured rifle stock and report back how that goes for you

Ok... so um... attaching it to a Ruger GSR or a Mohawk is different how....? They all take modification to take a Ching. Which is absolutely the most trivial modification of any of the "scout rifle aspects," since it takes about 4 minutes and $5 to accomplish.

 

[Llama Bob]

I guess I'm just not as paranoid as Cooper in that regard. I've walked out alone and pack hunted in the Southwest among the Coyotes and among the bears in the north and the west. A .308 bolt gun isn't the first thing which comes to mind as ideal for either application.



Ok... so um... attaching it to a Ruger GSR or a Mohawk is different how....? They all take modification to take a Ching. Which is absolutely the most trivial modification of any of the "scout rifle aspects," since it takes about 4 minutes and $5 to accomplish.

.308 in a 1-10" twist is actually fairly good for bears. With modern powders it'll give you the same ballistics as the classic 200gr .30-06 loads.

The synthetic stock GSR has a hidden reinforced point in the stock for mounting a 3rd swivel. They were thinking ahead.

As far as it being a trivial modification, sure. And one that might be beneficial on other rifle types depending on how much you like Ching vs. Rhodesian slings.