Run, Hide, Fight

[Old Dog]

While I believe this is all worthwhile discussion of a topic that must be considered by every citizen (and first responders), I noted this, Tirod's response to another poster:

Quote:
Its all theory until it happens, then grim reality of the occurrence, and hindsight/aftermath if you have survived.

That's a bit dismissive, as if training is useless.

I don't know that the first poster was implying that training is useless. I always try to consider my own experiences, which helped me understand that training doesn't always overcome an individual's basic wiring ... I have seen a few highly-trained guys, who I'd always thought of as supremely confident and highly-skilled, totally lose it during critical incidents, once even when there was no danger to an officer, just a particularly brutal death -- and he was pretty experienced. I also saw, in the military, a guy whom we considered the clown of our unit, basically an inept dude with little experience and only a year or so of service, who'd never displayed any common sense, perform an exceptionally heroic feat in the face of grave personal danger.

My point is, that while training is vital, having had the training is not always an indicator of how one may respond during a critical incident.

 

[JohnKSa]

My point is, that while training is vital, having had the training is not always an indicator of how one may respond during a critical incident.

It's not a guarantee that one will respond correctly. Some trained people will, no doubt, respond ineffectively, or perhaps even freeze.

On the other hand, not having had the training is a pretty good indicator of how someone will respond during a critical incident. Some untrained people may manage to do something constructive, but most will not.

It's not a matter of black and white, it's a matter of shading the odds in one's favor.

No training and the odds are you won't do anything useful.

Training turns the odds around even though there's still no guarantee that every trained person will come through in a pinch.

 

[david58]

Interesting experience just two days ago:

I was sitting in a ski resort lodge, while my son was on the slopes. I looked up, and a fellow a few tables over caught my attention. He just didn't look right.

Something told me that the situation wasn't right. As he turned grey and started to pass out, I remembered reading the beginning of this thread. Before he had hit the floor, I was across the room grabbing a ski patrol (EMT trained) and was dragging her to the fellow that passed out.

In the end, he was ok. And no, this wasn't a shooting incident. But it is all too easy to let our minds try to convince us that nothing is wrong, all is ok. Been there. This time, though, just from the mental rehearsal that resulted from this thread, might have been enough to get my fat ass off the bench and to the help the guy needed. We need to make sure we don't slip into denial, hoping that all will be well, even though it usually will be.

 

[JohnKSa]

Good for you. And thanks for sharing your experience. I hope it will inspire those who read it.

 

[Drail]

Well after reading that I don't think I'll ever call upon the F.B.I. or the Dept. of Homeboy Security if I find myself in trouble.

 

[Sheepdog1968]

I thought it was a pretty good article. However, I am not sure I completely agree with the three approaches in that order. Personally, I would rather be able to carry a firearm and be able to make a choice on the spot as to whether I am going to fight or flight. Taking training which adds some stress will enable us to be able to respond quickly. We will have practiced some stressful situations and have some ideas on what we can do to change the situation. The worst thing is encountering something new for the first time when your life is on the line.

 

[Apachedriver]

Look.....you get my point. I can't carry a folding chair or a hammer with me every day and even those in this state would be considered illegal if used in a threatening manner.....our gas bag pseudo republican Governor here is using
2A now to further his presidential position in the race....a real JOKE.

Actually, you're missing the point completely. I can understand why being that you're in Jersey. I'm originally from NYC.

We're not allowed to travel with weapons on airlines and yet I'm never unarmed. I was never unarmed as a teenager in NYC and yet, never illegally armed either. My point is reexamine your situation and adapt.

Don't carry plastic pens but instead innocuous metal ones. It doesn't have to be those expensive tactical pens.
Do you wear a belt? Get a gun belt with a solid metal buckle to swing, or a leather dress belt that you can wrap around your fist to punch. Or use it to choke the threat.
How about steel toe work boots or western style boots?
A Leatherman works well in hand folded or with tools deployed.
I know a guy that used to carry 2 - 5 oz silver bars in his carry-on when he traveled. Why silver? It opened conversation when noticed and he never had issues of being mistaken for a potential threat. Perhaps you prefer a roll or two of those new dollar coins or shiny half dollars that people like to collect. Have you ever seen a sap in action?
Ever heard of a shillelagh? Or get a solid cane or hiking stick instead. Cool carvings make it a conversation piece until…

You can't win the fight to survive by attacking on your own. Talk with your people, whoever they are; family, co-workers, whoever.
The idea is to adapt when the law or the policies won't allow you access to legal weapons.

Oh, and if you feel weird talking about resistance and defense with family, friends, and co-workers, it's okay. It's just means that the Liberals and Progressives that run your neck of the woods have infected you with the victimhood syndrome. Cleanse your mind(attitude) and you'll find ways to adapt for a day that none of us hope to face.

eta: Remember back in the 80's-90's when everyone carried a "D" cell MagLite in the car or had one or two in the desk at work? I knew a cop back then that called his a Tonk. Why? That was the sound it made when contacting the heads of two guys that attacked him once. It saved his life and they ended up laid out on the ground; one with a broken jaw and the other with a broken eye socket.

 

[Drail]

When I became handicapped and had to carry a cane I was highly amused to find that I am able to walk through any airport security or courthouse security and take my cane with me. I cannot have a tiny Swiss Army pocketknife but I can carry a 1 in. piece of hard hickory. And I am allowed to do this so that I can walk - not so I can defend myself. The stupid burns.

 

[old lady new shooter]

When I became handicapped and had to carry a cane I was highly amused to find that I am able to walk through any airport security or courthouse security and take my cane with me. I cannot have a tiny Swiss Army pocketknife but I can carry a 1 in. piece of hard hickory. And I am allowed to do this so that I can walk - not so I can defend myself. The stupid burns.

I understand it's also legal now to bring knitting needles onto a plane. (!)

 

[luzyfuerza]

Tirod,

I think that you are referring to a "good guy at the Walmart in Nevada"...NOT Utah.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/06/09/las-vegas-shooting-officers-dead-possible-white-supremacists.html

There's a big difference...if not in geography then certainly in culture.

 

[luzyfuerza]

LeDoux' OpEd piece (and the research that he references) in essence says that we are hard-wired to fall into freeze mode any time we face an immediate, credible, "you-just-shot-the-person-beside-me-and-now-your-muzzle-is-on-my-center-of-mass" situation.

To overcome this all-powerful biology he recommends:

Perhaps we could harness the power of social media to conduct a kind of collective cultural training in which we learn to reappraise the freezing that occurs in dangerous situations. In most of us, freezing will occur no matter what. It’s just a matter of how long it will last.

Getting real training (including FonF as suggested eloquently above), carrying tools (such as a sidearm) that magnify our physical abilities, living in condition yellow, choosing to be a sheep-dog rather than a sheeple, and thinking through responses to situations before they occur are actions that I think most of us believe help reduce the time that we spend "frozen" in dangerous situations.

Isn't THR, and especially S&T, a social media outlet for the kind of "collective cultural training" that LeDoux calls for?

I think so.



Likewise, I think that the FBI's "Run, Hide, Fight" program is something that most of us can embrace.

It is directed at those who are out of the immediate line of fire. These individuals have the time necessary to pull themselves out of "frozen" and "cower-in-the-corner" modes quickly enough to run, hide, or fight before they find themselves on the wrong end of a muzzle. Check out the FBI's training video:

https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cirg/active-shooter-and-mass-casualty-incidents/run-hide-fight-video

Some of us here on THR might tend to snicker a little bit because "Run, Hide, Fight" is too simplistic or too passive for us. Many of us might be beyond these basics. However, "Run, Hide, Fight" encourages everyone in our society to take responsibility for their own safety. To take action when faced with a threat, rather than to cower waiting to be saved by "the authorities". To get away if they can, to hide only if they can't get away safely, and to fight back using any tool available if they must.

These are incredibly important ideas for those who may have spent most of their lives in the "nanny state" but who might be willing to take their first steps toward real self-determination and personal responsibility.



The second and third paragraphs of the OpEd try to say that because "everybody always freezes" then "Run, Hide, Fight" has to be bogus. Really? LeDoux himself contradicts this conclusion later in the piece. Also, the logic of this argument is faulty...the time frames in which each applies are different.

I suspect that these two paragraphs were likely inserted by NYTimes editors. Logic doesn't really matter to them, and they know that the overwhelming majority of their readers won't critically compare their "conclusions" to the facts presented "in the fine print".

In all fairness, I can understand why the NYTimes hates "Run, Hide, Fight"; they are a mouthpiece for those who would crush individual freedoms while "Run, Hide, Fight" encourages sheeple to become more self-determined, empowered human beings.



BTW, I think that ACP owes an apology to Speedo66 and Onward Allusion. They were closer to the truth than he was.

 

[xXxplosive]

I thought a the threat of terrorism here in the homeland would spark a sense of unity....instead they want to disarm us entirely....makes you ponder the question, who really is the enemy amongst us.

 

[Kinsman]

I can attest to the 'freeze' part.
Ten years ago I witnessed a pedestrian hit by a car in traffic. The woman who was hit was tossed into the air like a rag doll. It took me a moment to process what I'd just seen.

I and a retired State Trooper were the first on scene. I had just that week completed refresher training for first responders, basically glorified CPR. We both looked at the victim, and knew that the injuries were bad enough that there was nothing we could do. We approached the vehicle that had hit the pedestrian and made sure she was alright. She was in shock and kept repeating "oh my god I didn't see her" over and over. I called 911 and we directed traffic around the scene best we could until police arrived.

As it turned out, the driver was a paramedic with the local FD and was paying attention to a phone and not the crosswalk. The victim was a beloved teacher recently retired. She did not regain consciousness and died a day or two later.

My takeaway from the whole thing was that I'd best pay closer attention to my surroundings from now on, and be better prepared for dealing with the unthinkable.