xXxplosive
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Well here in NJ we can run or hide but fight is probably out of the question for most of us since our Governor, the ex-federal prosecutor will not allow us the right of self-protection / CCL.......
Run, Hide, Fight
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Trunk Monkey
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https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=y0hj8h3IoxY
The video is a 15 minute talk by James Yeager on Human Reaction Time/ OODA Loop.
I listened all the way through and it is relatively safe for work, there are no Fbombs.
I added it because he specifically addresses something that both JohnKSa and Jeff White mentioned, the denial phase where the brain actually will tell you this isn't happening.
(Sometimes after a traumatic event your brain will try to do that retroactively and tell you it didn't happen)
Yeager talks about people that survive such events overcome that part of their brain and decide this is happening and I need to do something right now.
Finally he also mentions the fact that training must involve stress because skills learned without any stress can not be replicated under stress and how mental preparation plays a major part in successfully reacting to an emergency. Some thing as simple as knowing where the fire exits are in a theater
The video is a 15 minute talk by James Yeager on Human Reaction Time/ OODA Loop.
I listened all the way through and it is relatively safe for work, there are no Fbombs.
I added it because he specifically addresses something that both JohnKSa and Jeff White mentioned, the denial phase where the brain actually will tell you this isn't happening.
(Sometimes after a traumatic event your brain will try to do that retroactively and tell you it didn't happen)
Yeager talks about people that survive such events overcome that part of their brain and decide this is happening and I need to do something right now.
Finally he also mentions the fact that training must involve stress because skills learned without any stress can not be replicated under stress and how mental preparation plays a major part in successfully reacting to an emergency. Some thing as simple as knowing where the fire exits are in a theater
Hangingrock
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Its all theory until it happens, then grim reality of the occurrence, and hindsight/aftermath if you have survived.
This is the biggest missing link in almost everyone's training and the reason why cops can qualify "expert" with a handgun out to 25 yds and only hit a person 13-20% at a distance of under 20 feet.
Once you have the coordination to hit under no-stress, the only thing that will help under stress is more realistic training.
I have some force-on-force training (actually a huge amount, but military), but I wanted more and specifically for armed citizen type incidents. My googling turned up very few options. I think I'll take the Simunition instructor course, get training for myself and a credential, maybe run some classes locally.
It isn't all or nothing, you don't have to have full on simunition training. Once you can shoot reasonably fast and accurate under no stress, up the realism. The closest you can get to replicating the combat environment the better, as at some point the subconscious can't distinguish, it will count as a "real" experience. But, the mild stress of competition will help. Having a friend set up a scenario with clothed 3D plastic targets will help. There are life-like video simulators, some are even 300 degrees and can give a mild shock if you get hit.
The best is a well-run FoF class, but it doesn't have to be simunition, it can be airsoft. The key is a good instructor (formal or informal) who knows how to run safe and realistic scenario trainingand give quality feedback. On the safety side, cops and military get shot every year in FoF training...thankfully it is rare. On the training side, playing airsoft with your friends will be close to useless, the scenario needs to be a lot more regimented than an airsoft free-for-all that the mind will interpret as just a game.
Good role-players in FoF are critical. If you talk your biker buddy friend into playing the role of BG and coach them on exactly what to do. When a female trainee who has never met this person has him screaming and cursing all the vile things he is about to do to her...you can believe they are going to think it is real.
"Training At The Speed Of Life" by Kenneth Murray is an outstanding resource . It would be realistic to attend a FoF class, pick the instructors brains while you are there. Then with the book above for reference, you could do pretty good and safe informal FoF training at home with inexpensive airsoft equipment.
The hardest part isn't the training, gear, expertise etc. The hardest part would be to find willing participants in your area wanting to train...even for free. Even gun enthusiasts are flaky when it comes to actual training, most prefer to talk about their latest purchase, argue 9mmvs 45 and plink once in awhile.
To sum up-the purpose of realistic and high stress training is to gain combat experience w/o having to actually be in combat. If it is realistic enough, you might as well have been in an actual firefight. The parts of the brain that kick in under stress think it is real. The more often the better. Your first few times FoF you'll suck. You'll get better each and every time.
The ST6 guy who shot Bin-Laden said he quit the Navy because he wasn't getting adrenaline dumps in firefights anymore (and that scared him)...now that is someone who has been completely innoculated to everything the OP article talks about. It just doesn't apply, he has had so much high-stress training and actual gunfight experience, he can perform like we do on the square range with no stress.
I knew a guy like that in Iraq, no coincidence he was also from a famous "Tier 1" unit...
That said, there is no difference between a well-run training evolution in a Tier 1 unit and a well-run FoF evolution in your hometown...just the gear and tactics, the benefit is the same. Go to youtube and watch a few "first-person defender" videos.
That's easy - you use animal models to trace the neurophysiology of response. LeDoux has traced the circuitry in the emergency responses through the amygdala and inputs from other parts of the brain and then the signaling to the motor systems.
That's good knowledge to have. That's something that Jame Yeager can't do.
I wouldn't dismiss the automatic reaction 'freeze' as happening. I also think the cognitive overload happens.
I agree that increased training can get you to overcome such.
Folks are reading way to much into this about antigun and resistance implications. In fact, the discussion of cognitive re-appraisal is indicative of how training aids.
The literature which discusses LeDoux's analysis clearly states that training gives one quick and intuitive perceptual and decision templates to avoid the freeze. The trick is to move the decision processes to fast, automatic systems.
Extreme Fear: The Science of Your Mind in Danger (MacSci)Feb 1, 2011
by Jeff Wise - gives a good review of such.
BTW, I discussed this issue (with LeDoux's analysis) at a Polite Society conference a few years and no one flipped out that it was antigun or ridiculous.
The point is that we do have these systems and they can be overcome by training.
waterhouse
Member
Run hide fight is not actually aimed at a well armed populace, but instead at unarmed office type workers. Fight is the last ditch option, and generally involves improvised weapons. A hammer from a maintenance closet, a mop stick, a hot pot of coffee, your pocket knife, etc.
Trunk Monkey
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wechlaus said:
Comic book response.
God forbid but if I'm ever in an active shooter situation I have one goal; get out alive. If my family is with me my goals change to "Get them out alive."
I'm not getting into any gunfight I can avoid. If I can get my family out I'm going to, if I can successfully hide them I will but I'm only going to engage the shooter if all other avenues fail. (Caveat if I have an unobstructed shot and I can safely take it of course I will)
old lady new shooter
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In the Canadian Parliament situation, the parliament members went into a room where they barricaded the door, put the Prime Minister in a closet, and broke flagstaffs to use as weapons if the barricade didn't hold.
bobmcd
Member
I must disagree with you there. In a class taught by local (to me) law enforcement, a member of the audience asked about private citizens executing the "fight" portion of "run, hide, fight" with privately-owned firearms. The officer teaching the class answered that, since many Virginians have Concealed Handgun Permits, and Virginia has no-permit-required open carry, SWAT always drills with a non-uniformed good guy with a gun; sometimes simulating an undercover cop, sometimes an off-duty cop, sometimes an armed private citizen. His bottom line was, if you are a private citizen in lawful possession of a handgun, "knock yourself out." Better to defend with a pistol than with a carafe of coffee.
Aside from Virginia, the San Antonio TX Police Department explicitly covers run-hide-fight with armed private citizens:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKyLxDv9C9U
The defensive handgun portion is at about 4:00.
old lady new shooter
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I just want to thank Jeff for starting this thread, and all the people who are taking the time to post their valuable thoughtful responses, I am learning a lot.
old lady new shooter
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And on checking my email after leaving here I found forwarded a new article from the Washington Post, Active-shooter training for office workers used to be about hiding. Not anymore.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/loca...op-stories_activeshooter-715pm:homepage/story
https://www.washingtonpost.com/loca...op-stories_activeshooter-715pm:homepage/story
waterhouse
Member
Obviously if you have a gun, that it a better weapon than most things you can pick up around your workplace to fight with. I'm not suggesting an improvised weapon over a firearm.
If you actually watch the videos and read the training literature, the training is aimed at unarmed people. The training focuses on mindset. First, get out if you can. Second, if you can't get out, hide AND barricade a the entrance to your hiding spot if you can. Third, if you have to, fight with whatever you can find. One of the videos we watched has an office worker grabbing a fire ax.
The mindset is that fighting with your hands or whatever you can pick up is better than quivering in your boots while someone who only cares about body count attacks you.
I have attended probably 15 seminars (some just classroom, most with walk throughs or simunitions training) on active shooter response. Several involve concealed carriers or plain clothes armed school resource officers. If you have a gun, obviously that is a good thing to fight with, but that is generally not what the Run Hide Fight training is about.
Of note for your "knock yourself out", in a lot of simunitions training with patrol officer and SWAT teams alike, the plain clothes armed "good guy" gets shot. I have shot the good guy and I have played the good guy who gets shot. Some of these scenarios have movie make up people come in and do the blood and guts for dead and wounded, and they use full power blanks in enclosed buildings, which I'm certain are above OSHA hearing safe. They do everything they can to add chaos to the scene, and at some point the good guy clears a corner with a gun in his hand. I don't have exact stats, but the good guy who isn't on a police radio channel gets shot well over 50% of the time.
One of the guys who teaches this stuff, I don't recall his name but he was from San Diego, teaches it as “Run when it’s safe to run. Hide where it’s safe to hide. Fight if you or others around you have no other options.”
Run, hide, fight is based on the most common scenario, NO ARMED FRIENDLY on the scene. Concealed carry to some degree is legal in all 50 states now. However, even with all of the permits issued, with around 1 million sworn police officers, 2/3 of which it can be assumed are off duty and out in the world conducting their normal activities, it is pretty unlikely that there will be a "good guy with a gun" at the scene of most active shooter events. First of all, they tend to happen in gun free "safe" zones where private citizens are prohibited from carrying firearms.
Second; most people, including off duty police officers don't carry all the time. It's a pain to carry, it means lifestyle changes many aren't willing to make.
None the less, all of the active shooter training I have attended made provision for encountering an armed friendly. Even uniformed officers are shot by mistake in training.
Run, hide, fight is good advice if you are armed. Draw your weapon and run to the sound of the guns and there is a good chance you are going to be shot down by first responders without warning, before you get a chance to make a difference. If you aren't immediately involved, it's best to try to get away with as many people who are around you as possible. If you can't exit the building, get everyone around you to cover or at least concealment and prepare to defend your position.
If the shooter is right there in front of you then attack. It's the best option. In the Army we trained to attack directly into the fire if we were caught in the kill zone of a near ambush. That's essentially your situation if the shooter is right there on top of you. This is good advice armed or unarmed.
I see nothing wrong with "run, hide, fight".
Second; most people, including off duty police officers don't carry all the time. It's a pain to carry, it means lifestyle changes many aren't willing to make.
None the less, all of the active shooter training I have attended made provision for encountering an armed friendly. Even uniformed officers are shot by mistake in training.
Run, hide, fight is good advice if you are armed. Draw your weapon and run to the sound of the guns and there is a good chance you are going to be shot down by first responders without warning, before you get a chance to make a difference. If you aren't immediately involved, it's best to try to get away with as many people who are around you as possible. If you can't exit the building, get everyone around you to cover or at least concealment and prepare to defend your position.
If the shooter is right there in front of you then attack. It's the best option. In the Army we trained to attack directly into the fire if we were caught in the kill zone of a near ambush. That's essentially your situation if the shooter is right there on top of you. This is good advice armed or unarmed.
I see nothing wrong with "run, hide, fight".
That's a bit dismissive, as if training is useless. I don't see the DOD eliminating Basic Training just because things can't be reliably predicted, or DEVGRU units just walking in cold and taking down major terrorists without rehearsal.
If anything, training brings in all the unexpected twists - on a professional level role players - the innocent bystanders - are frequently used as tailgunners or rogue citizens who open fire once the LEO/Mil thought their back was covered.
REF: the Walmart shooters in Utah, who split up entering the store. And the woman shooting the Good Guy in the back when he confronted the male wheeling in a shopping cart of guns.
It's the essence of training to rehearse situations - how many never walk thru their house in the dark to actually discover if they can maneuver a 30" long gun without banging the walls or getting tangled up in stair railings? Almost nobody. But they are in their own mind absolutely invincible without having discovered the pitfalls.
Now add being in the Mall, where most of us simply have no clue where the exits are if we dive into the nearest store to get away from an active shooter.
You hear shots close at hand, see people wielding guns and taking shots down the main hall. It's 30 feet wide or wider, almost no place to hide except a cell phone kiosk, you look to the nearest storefront and it's open. RUN.
Now you are in Victoria's Secret with shots outside and most likely some customers and staff running to the front to see what is happening. You make your way past the racks to the back of the store - what is a dressing room area vs merchandise dock with exit? You slip into a booth filled with lingerie and see a shooter pieing the corner coming after you.
This is not the way you want to go, with your family wondering if you were actually there trying on things. You didn't plan, didn't rehearse, didn't know where exits were, just walked in cold in Condition White taking your chances knowing you'd be invincible. After all, You Carry A Gun, how is someone going to prevail against you, equally armed and dangerous.
Well, after about 22 years of getting myself "shot dead" in training, there are more ways to do that than we can ever fully discuss in it's own website. Don't forget cops can and do go their entire career without even unholstering in public. Same for us "good guys." It's an even rarer event that one of us goes so far as to pull a trigger. But that in no way justifies "it's all theory." It won't be if you have at least walked thru it in training, with the mindset you could get hit with Simunitions, paintball, even airsoft. It IS very much different than a quick read or watching a video on the internet. It's one of the few times I felt that the course instructor was well justified in using humiliation as a reinforcement tool. You got your lame self shot dead, why not have the role players explain in certain terms how they will deal with your helpless family you died helplessly protecting? Loser!
Joe Good Guy in Utah left his family behind, he's not there anymore. She moved on. So will your family. You need to protect your interests with some serious thought, and practicing against what could happen is very much in your interest. That part about "until Death do us part" doesn't have to happen sooner because you blew it being a Stand Up Rambo at a movie theatre or making the wrong turn getting out of the mall. Professionals train - billions are spent on it annually moving troops to maneuver areas, running video in shoot scenarios, attending shoot houses. It might be "all theory" but the intent is to be rehearsed, eliminate the wait time, and ACT promptly with a useful set of skills.
Not just standing there trying to figure it out. It's way too late at that point.
Schwing
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I have to agree wholeheartedly to this. This happened to me about 20 years ago. I was living in Germany of all places and had a revolver suddenly pointed at my face. I froze up solid. Even had I been armed, which was not even an option at the time, I would have had no time to react defensively in any way. After I overcame my deer in the headlights moment, I was able to talk the guy down and walk away. He ended up being a crazy WWII vet who I was told was "harmless"
I have replayed this event many times in my mind with, honestly, no real conclusions as to how I would have acted differently with the experience I have now. While I don't believe I would freeze up again, it is difficult to know how will will react given a specific threat.
I think pondering these types of scenarios can be a very good thing. I had a church leader once tell me that one of the best things we can do in life to make good choices is to have some decisions already made up in our minds. When confronted with choices of honesty, morality, etc, we can already know what to do.
This mentality can translate over somewhat to defensive situations. I am not saying we have to spend our lives playing horrible scenarios in our minds, but pondering how we would react in these events at least gives our minds something other than a blank slate if we ever do get broadsided with a defensive situation.
If they squeeze the trigger and blow your brains out, there was nothing you could do. However, until that point you have options. If you can think and move you can fight (or run).
Simply sprinting away is better odds than being executed. And effective fighting doesn't require many years of gun disarmament training or a black belt. It does require some knowledge and training to be done with a high percentage of survival, but it can be surprising how simple it can be.
With a gun in your face, drawing a gun of your own is the wrong response, since you had none and since you didn't have the H2H training to deal with it, freezing makes sense. Train some simple H2H options (striking with your body weight behind it to vulnerable areas to cause injury) and next time you likely wouldn't freeze.
This gets back to the point of the thread, when you don't know or can't conceive of the proper response, you will likely freeze.
Phaedrus/69
Member
In my experience the greatest antidote to freezing is training. It's pretty common, universal almost, to freeze when confronted by a stress situation completely unfamiliar. But it can take surprisingly little training/education to overcome it. A good example is the tendency to slam on the brakes when you're having trouble stopping on a slick road. Oversteering, slamming on the brakes, etc are very quick and easy to overcome with some experience, and in a lot of cases just reading about the correct response ahead of time is enough to allow you to handle the situation.
In the case of a shooting just thinking about it ahead of time and formulating a plan can help. If you had never considered the possibility and aren't a gun person you might not accept what's happening and you may not recognize gunfire. This is a gun forum so I hardly need to mention that gunshots don't necessarily sound like they do on tv. Almost everyone at THR knows what gunfire sounds like! Just that bit of information could make a big difference in how we react.
And of course, you will have more options if you have a sidearm on you when the gunfire starts.
In the case of a shooting just thinking about it ahead of time and formulating a plan can help. If you had never considered the possibility and aren't a gun person you might not accept what's happening and you may not recognize gunfire. This is a gun forum so I hardly need to mention that gunshots don't necessarily sound like they do on tv. Almost everyone at THR knows what gunfire sounds like! Just that bit of information could make a big difference in how we react.
And of course, you will have more options if you have a sidearm on you when the gunfire starts.
At my workplace we were required to take computerized training to "Run, Hide, Fight." Since I am a BK amputee and weigh a lot more than I should, running isn't possible. I suppose I could hide, or throw pens and pencils at an attacker. I am pretty much resigned to hoping it doesn't happen, and it is rather unlikely since our bldg. is quite secure. Still....I often wonder what exactly I would do. And no we can't carry on the premises.
All of the touchy feely psycho BS aside, please remember that this comes from the same types of folks who insisted on drop drills, in our schools, in the 50's and 60's. Like getting under a tiny desk and covering your head with your hands and arms would protect you from a nearby thermo nuclear explosion.
The only good thing about the drop drills is that you are already on your knees so you are in a good position to pray.
The only good thing about the drop drills is that you are already on your knees so you are in a good position to pray.
xXxplosive
Member
Quote: "Run hide fight is not actually aimed at a well armed populace, but instead at unarmed office type workers. Fight is the last ditch option, and generally involves improvised weapons. A hammer from a maintenance closet, a mop stick, a hot pot of coffee, your pocket knife, etc".
What's the difference, here in NJ where 99.999 % of our citizens are unarmed / no CCL, including pocket knives, what chance do we have here....?
What's the difference, here in NJ where 99.999 % of our citizens are unarmed / no CCL, including pocket knives, what chance do we have here....?
waterhouse
Member
If you are asking for an actual percentage when you ask "what chance" I don't have an answer. You stated that fighting was out of the question in NJ because you don't have the right to carry weapons.
People fight every single day without weapons. People kill other people with their bare hands, and many more people kill other people with blunt objects that would not often be considered "weapons" until they are used as such.
The point of the training is to change your mindset from "NJ doesn't allow me to carry a concealed handgun so I'll just give up and stand here while a crazy person shoots me" to "I can't run or hide and he is getting close to me, I'm going to grab that office chair and at least go out with a fight with a possibility of surving or slowing the crazy person down enough so that others survive."
It is not uncommon to hear about active shooters lining people up to be shot. Imagine if after the first person got shot the next 15 people charged the shooter.
I've played the bad guy with simunition too. I've never been able to shoot everyone in the room when they all try and tackle me. No weapons does not mean you can't fight.
xXxplosive
Member
Look.....you get my point. I can't carry a folding chair or a hammer with me every day and even those in this state would be considered illegal if used in a threatening manner.....our gas bag pseudo republican Governor here is using
2A now to further his presidential position in the race....a real JOKE.
2A now to further his presidential position in the race....a real JOKE.
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