Is "Run, Hide, Fight" The Right Model for Armed Defenders?

[luzyfuerza]

"Run, hide, fight" is everywhere these days. So much so that it has become a truism (def truism: "a statement that is so obviously true that it is almost not worth saying. Synonym: cliche. American Heritage Dictionary). It is typically used to describe how to respond to attacks on soft targets where groups of people congregate (e.g. schools, workplaces, churches, malls, big stores, etc.)

Run=get away from where you are
Hide=if you can't run away, lock and block entry into the space you're in, turn off the lights, and be quiet
Fight=use the force of numbers and improvised tools to overwhelm the attacker

Run, hide, fight may be a decent approach for those who do not have a defensive mindset, skills, or tools.

However, I wonder whether it is the right response model for armed, prepared, skilled defenders.


In particular, I question the "run" recommendation as it could be applied to armed, prepared, skilled defenders.

In general, "running" only works reliably if moving to a place we know is safer via a route we know is secure.

Most attacks are chaotic; running blindly is risky if we don't know the location of the attacker(s).

Running does make a potential victim harder to shoot (a moving target?).

If a potential victim has no ability to fight effectively, running early may be better than escaping a tight "corral" later.

Soft targets tend to have limited points of egress. Attackers can use those fatal funnels to their advantage.

Armed individuals running from the scene of an attack will likely be examined by responding police. Police are trained to look for attackers that are trying to escape by blending into the stream of running victims. An officer finding your gun may not be a pleasant experience, at least initially.


"Hide, fight" might be a better model for armed defenders.

We don't tell homeowners to run out of their homes when invaded. We tell them to practice having family members retreat to a safe room, to call for support, to allow invaders to take what they want, but to defend themselves with force if an invader breaches the safe room.

Defenders can use fatal funnels and other barriers against attackers.

A defender in a protected position is more difficult to attack than an individual victim out in the open.

Force multipliers can be effectively used by slower, older, or infirm defenders. Running may be much less effective for members of this group.


What thoughts come to you as you consider this question?


If someone has never heard of "Run, hide, fight", Homeland Security vomits forth a mass of web sites, videos, studies, classes, and recommendations here https://www.dhs.gov/school-and-workplace-violence

 

[Jeff White]

I think that this is situationally dependent just like almost everything else we talk about here. I see no problem with running if there is a clear route out of the kill zone. If there is no clear way out hiding, if you can find a place to hide is the better option and if you are essentially in a near ambush situation, the fight is where you are, your best option is to attack.

I can think of all kinds of situations where there might not be a viable way out. However in that situation there might not be a viable place to hide either. Hiding might be a more viable option in a school shooting, however how many of us spend our days in an elementary or high school? I imagine more people spend their days in a office setting than a school setting and that also lends itself to hiding. What about a shopping mall, sporting event or concert? A shopping mall gives you options to hide but sporting events and concert venues don't give us a lot of options to hide.

Probably the best advice is to war game it in your mind when you get to a new place look for exits and places you can hide and then make a little plan of what you will do if someone comes in and starts shooting. It only takes a few seconds and if you do that, you won't be one of those people who are frozen in place because they never thought about what they would do if confronted by a situation like that.

 

[shafter]

The issue with hiding is that good hiding places by their nature tend to leave one extremely vulnerable once discovered. There's no running at that point and any fighting will be from a disadvantage.

Hiding is good if you can use it to ambush.

 

[JohnKSa]

...you won't be one of those people who are frozen in place...

Along those lines, I've seen one source who thinks "Run" should be changed to "Move".

I think that "Run, Hide, Fight" is probably more intended for people who aren't armed and probably aren't paying any attention to what's going on until they hear the shots.

Of course, a simple rule (3 words in this case) isn't going to be adequate to cover all situations. It's more of a guideline to work from. If people remember it and take it to heart, they're way ahead of the curve because it will give them something to do that has a chance of being constructive.

I think if getting away from a deadly threat is a reasonable option, it's going to be hard to argue against it. It's not always going to be possible, and it may not work out in every case, but even if one is wounded in the process, it's still likely a win because the chances of getting rapid medical attention go up dramatically if you can put distance between you and the threat. We saw people die in Uvalde because LE went into "siege" mode which delayed medical care to the injured. If the shooter barricades in place, you won't be getting any medical attention unless you are well away from the danger zone.

If you are armed and have good awareness of what's going on, then it might make sense to put "Fight" at the top of the list, particularly if your line of escape is dangerous or you don't believe you are capable of escaping and you don't see a good hiding place. Or, maybe if there's a really good hiding place handy that offers solid security and cover, it might make sense to go right to "Hide" without first considering the "Run" option.

I think the real key is to do something--don't just freeze.

 

[hso]

Run, hide, fight may be a decent approach

It is the best approach for any civilian, armed or otherwise.
We do that best by avoiding a deadly confrontation. Avoidance. If we can withdraw, run, then we reduce your potential for us personally getting into that deadly confrontation by not being there.
If we can't run then the next best way to avoid it will be hiding (and denying the threat access to us).
When we've run out of other options in a public place then we use the last resort, fight the threat.

 

[Jeff White]

The issue with hiding is that good hiding places by their nature tend to leave one extremely vulnerable once discovered. There's no running at that point and any fighting will be from a disadvantage.

Hiding is good if you can use it to ambush.

Yes if you are armed you've essentially created a barricaded suspect situation for the shooter. To get to you the shooter has to come through the door (office or classroom maybe storefront in a mall but many of those storefronts are very wide and don't really create the fatal funnel the defender needs). Again, it's all situationally dependent and every situation will be different.

 

[luzyfuerza]

Yep, everything depends on the situation.

And our responses to any situation will be much more effective if we consider our options beforehand.

The question here is to discuss how the vanilla decision tree recommended for the unprepared could be adjusted for the trained, skilled, equiped defender.

 

[luzyfuerza]

I have mentally thought through what I would do in venues I frequented.

Beginning with the only mass shooting location I personally know well. The Trolley Square mall in Salt Lake City.

TS is an unusual mall. Think of a two-level Victorian house expanded horizontally. Lots of complexity. Some pics here: https://gatetoadventures.com/salt-lake-city-trolley-square/

The restaurant I liked in TS was located in a corner on the second floor.

The first conclusion I came to was that there was no way I would ever leave that restaurant, gun in hand, hunting a shooter or shooters. (Notably, an off-duty cop did do this during the TS attack. VERY dangerous choice to make.)

Second conclusion was that without solid intelligence about the shooter(s) team size and location, I would never personally try to run from that restaurant. Whether armed or not. Much less with loved ones in tow. Too much complexity, stairs, other fatal funnels, and distance.

Third conclusion was that even if the restaurant had been on the ground floor and close to an exit, running to that exit would not have worked. In the TS attack, the murderer used the same entrance I always used (from the main parking lot), and he started his attack by shooting victims outside the entrance. If I had run at the sound of the first shots, I would have come face-to-face with him and his shotgun.

Fourth conclusion: as an armed defender, the lowest risk option for me is to barricade behind cover (or at least concealment) and set up an ambush.


As I have examined other venues I know well, the same pattern has emerged.

Never hunt.

Unless you know exactly where the attacker or attackers are, running is dangerous.

If you can, find a defensible hidey hole, and set up an ambush. And fight like hell if you have to.


What specific conclusions have other members come to about venues you frequent?

 

[luzyfuerza]

BTW, I despise concert or big sports event venues. Largely because cover/concealment is limited and so running has to be the first option. And running is impeded by the mass of humanity around you.

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

Unless you are a fairly experienced runner, running is a lot harder than you think. Also one thing I emphasized to troops when I trained them was keep your enemy in sight. It's "Take cover and fight !"

 

[Jeff White]

BTW, I despise concert or big sports event venues. Largely because cover/concealment is limited and so running has to be the first option. And running is impeded by the mass of humanity around you.

Don't forget that virtually all these type of venues are gun free zones with metal detectors at the doors. These measures keep no one safe but they ensure you are unarmed severely limiting your options.

 

[jstert]

people are told “run, hide, fight” in this specific order because they have not the tools or disposition to “fight, hide, run.” it’s a sad commentary on what we have been purposely shaped into becoming.

 

[Jeff White]

people are told “run, hide, fight” in this specific order because they have not the tools or disposition to “fight, hide, run.” it’s a sad commentary on what we have been purposely shaped into becoming.

View attachment 1184777

Yes, it's a sad commentary, however it's the world we live in. Let's keep the thread focused on how to survive in the world we live in, not lamenting that it isn't the one we would like to live in.

 

[shafter]

My advice would be RUN or HIDE/FIGHT (ambush). I wouldn't separate the hiding and fighting.

So, in an active shooter situation I'm either going to get off the X by running away and escaping the situation whether that's a building or an outdoor venue, or I'm going to hide somewhere in a defensive posture where I have a chance of fighting back whether I'm armed or not. This means no hiding in tight closets or under a desk or somewhere else where I can't have a fighting stance. I'm going to be in a position to fight when the shooter is at the disadvantage when he comes at me. The only time I would hide for hiding sake is if I knew my spot was so hidden there was no chance I'd be found. Obviously being armed gives you more options but it's not always a reality.

I would offer this advice to children in schools as well. Run if you can, and if you can't then hide/fight (ambush). There's been many cases during school shootings where children have been found shot under their desks or in closets where they had no chance whatsoever. Barricade the door and be ready. It may not be enough to stop entry but it may slow them down just enough for law enforcement.

 

[luzyfuerza]

Don't forget that virtually all these type of venues are gun free zones with metal detectors at the doors. These measures keep no one safe but they ensure you are unarmed severely limiting your options.

Absolutely true.

But even absent the security theater that is a metal detector, the sheer size of these big venues limits the usefulness of typical concealed firearms.

 

[film495]

I don't know, but the first thing I usually do anywhere I go, is scan for back exits and emergency exits, and my plan is to just run if I can, even if I'm armed. If I have an easy shot I might take it, but - my first plan is to just run and keep going. Unless a family member is in the store, I'm not going to hide and then fight, I'll be in the next county in 5 minutes.

 

[The Night Rider]

If you look at the bottom of the page the same discussion came up twice in 2016.

It's really hard to find something new to say about this.

I don't go to malls, the places I do go, I know how to get out of and if there's a way out I'm taking it.

The only exception to that is if I'm with my wife who can't walk well. Even then we're going to try to get it out.

I don't know if I'm a "skilled" defender but I'm absolutely positive that I'm not qualified to clear a Walmart/Office Building or Mall

When I did security at my church the cops came in and they gave us a block of instruction on active shooter events in the church.

One of the things that they told us was an event of an active shooter incident but the police were going to secure the perimeter of that church and nobody was getting out without being thoroughly vetted by the police.

When Robert Deer shot up the Planned Parenthood over on Centennial CSPD hadn't yet encrypted their radio channels and we listened to it happening. The cops had Robert deer pinned down in the front lobby and they were getting calls from workers and patients who were locked in treatment rooms and could not get out. It went on for hours before they finally went in there and got him.

I said all that to say this, if I'm at a given location and somebody starts shooting up at the front If at all possible I'm going out the back door and I'm going to get around to my car and I'm going to leave (another good reason to park out on the fringes of the parking lot).

 

[wayneinFL]

Second conclusion was that without solid intelligence about the shooter(s) team size and location, I would never personally try to run from that restaurant. Whether armed or not. Much less with loved ones in tow. Too much complexity, stairs, other fatal funnels, and distance.

Third conclusion was that even if the restaurant had been on the ground floor and close to an exit, running to that exit would not have worked. In the TS attack, the murderer used the same entrance I always used (from the main parking lot), and he started his attack by shooting victims outside the entrance. If I had run at the sound of the first shots, I would have come face-to-face with him and his shotgun.

I had acquaintance, a firefighter, who was overly obsessed with fire safety- obsessed with fire safety like people on this forum obsess about guns. He would walk into a public venue like a mall and look for fire exits and plan his escape.

It's hard for me to imagine that restaurant - where they work with fire all day- doesn't have a fire exit. And a service entrance close to the road. I'm sure they don't have multiple vendors trucking all their stuff through the mall past shoppers.

It's hard to think outside the box when your life is at stake. I remember an interview with a 9/11 survivor who was trapped in a hallway or vestibule until a building engineer kicked out a hole in the drywall and let everyone out. They were literally trapped by paper, and couldn't think a way out of it under stress.

Maybe the firefighter wasn't overly obsessed with safety. Maybe he was just obsessed enough.

 

[The Night Rider]

It's hard to think outside the box when your life is at stake. I remember an interview with a 9/11 survivor who was trapped in a hallway or vestibule until a building engineer kicked out a hole in the drywall amd let everyone out. They were literally trapped by paper, and couldn't think a way out of it under stress.

That's (IMO) a psychological barrier. In their mind that was A Wall

 

[wayneinFL]

That's (IMO) a psychological barrier. In their mind that was A Wall

Absolutely it's a psychological barrier. So are the doors into a kitchen, stockroom, or any other back of house space in a public venue. We're not typically allowed to go there, so there's a tendency not to consider it as an escape route or a place to hide.

I was standing in the food court of our local mall with the fireman. He pointed out to me there weren't panic bars at the main exits. When I pointed out the two obvious fire exits, he told me people will run toward the exits they're most familiar with. They won't look for the fire exits. That's a psychological barrier.

 

[Mk VII]

People are constantly told, 'don't open the fire exits, it will trigger an alarm', so when an emergency occurs they wont use the fire exits.

 

[nettlle]

The trainer at my CCW class taught that as CCW carriers we had a responsibility to avoid confrontation and protect any innocents. To find the safest exit and exit last while protecting the innocents during exit. If there was any danger to those without a weapon we were to be protect them. And ourselves also if needed. We are not there to fight but rather protect.

 

[The Night Rider]

The trainer at my CCW class taught that as CCW carriers we had a responsibility to avoid confrontation and protect any innocents. To find the safest exit and exit last while protecting the innocents during exit. If there was any danger to those without a weapon we were to be protect them. And ourselves also if needed. We are not there to fight but rather protect.

A concealed handgun permit doesn't come with a Sheepdog License. I'm obligated to protect My family period.

 

[Jeff White]

The trainer at my CCW class taught that as CCW carriers we had a responsibility to avoid confrontation and protect any innocents. To find the safest exit and exit last while protecting the innocents during exit. If there was any danger to those without a weapon we were to be protect them. And ourselves also if needed. We are not there to fight but rather protect.

I can't believe anyone is actually teaching that. Your CCW permit is not a peace officers commission. You have no duty to protect anyone but yourself. There are a lot of dangers, physical, criminal and civil when you assume the role of protector.

 

[nettlle]

A concealed carry license doesn't give you the right to be Rambo either. I think we all carry for protection. Unless you give a different way of defining that also.