Arizonagunrunner
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Just bought one of these. It is brand new in the box 26in IC. Made in the early 80s. It looks great. I think it will be a good gun. What are you Shotgunners thoughts on this weapon?
S&W 3000 12ga
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SwampWolf
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It's a great shotgun and reportedly can be less susceptible to a certain kind of jam that the 870 is not immune to. The guns were made in Japan by Howa. I've always regretted selling mine years ago.
dfariswheel
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As above, the Model 3000 was made in Japan by Howa.
S&W sold these from about 1972 to about 1984.
They sold a sporting model and a police version.
S&W also sold the Model 1000 semi auto also by Howa.
The Model 3000 was a more or less "clone" of the Remington 870 but most parts don't interchange.
The police version had a brief cult following with individual police officers.
After S&W dropped the Models 3000 and 1000, Mossberg picked them up and sold them for about one year.
Somewhere in there, Howa imported the gun under it's own name.
The Model 3000 was a very good quality gun, which failed because it simply didn't have anything to offer over the Remington 870.
S&W sold these from about 1972 to about 1984.
They sold a sporting model and a police version.
S&W also sold the Model 1000 semi auto also by Howa.
The Model 3000 was a more or less "clone" of the Remington 870 but most parts don't interchange.
The police version had a brief cult following with individual police officers.
After S&W dropped the Models 3000 and 1000, Mossberg picked them up and sold them for about one year.
Somewhere in there, Howa imported the gun under it's own name.
The Model 3000 was a very good quality gun, which failed because it simply didn't have anything to offer over the Remington 870.
SwampWolf
Member
For police work and self-defense, it might have. Before I retired, I ripped a couple of pages from a police journal that was laying about in the station and, although the name of the publication is not on the pages I procured, the author of the article I was interested in ("Riot Gun Shoot-Out; The S&W 3000 vs. Remington's Classic 870") was Sgt. Gary Paul Johnston, and he submitted the following report after testing the two shotguns: "...If the Remington Model 870 has one shortcoming, it has to be the stoppage prone situation resulting from a cartridge falling back into the carrier when not loaded completely into the magazine tube. Loading in a hurry can provoke just such a situation...If the stuck round is first into the tube, there is no problem, as the action can be cycled to clear and chamber it. It becomes critical, however, with the second or third round, due to the increasing magazine spring pressure, and if it is the fourth round, as is most likely, the action cannot be cycled in the normal manner, and there is a stoppage. This condition can also occur in short-stroking the action, or not bringing the fore-end fully and sharply to the rear, especially with a damaged round. Stoppages are particularly dangerous in police work, because when an officer cycles his shotgun, it is because he needs it at that moment. It is not that this stoppage cannot be quickly cleared, because it can by placing the butt on a firm surface and sharply pulling the fore-end back with both hands. Or if this fails, by slamming the butt down, using the same hold. In a gunfight, however, seconds are precious...This prodlem has been engineered out of the Model 3000, and that any round so slipping could be easily and quickly cycled through the action.
"Anxious to compare the two guns, I took the Smith & Wesson 3000 to the range along with a near new Remington 870...I loaded the Remington with four rounds and, with difficulty, I artificially produced the stoppage condition described. The action could not be worked normally, and it took both hands on the fore-end with the butt placed on the floor to clear and cycle the action. The Smith & Wesson Model 3000 was then loaded with four rounds and, again with difficulty, I artificially created the same stoppage. Even with the full magazine, the Smith & Wesson cycled in the normal manner, clearing and chambering the 'jammed' round with ease.
"...While I do not fear its happening to me in the line of duty, I would dread for it to occur to an officer unfamiliar with the problem, unless he or she was using the Smith & Wesson Model 3000-but then there really would be no problem..."
When asked as to which shotgun he would choose to take into a "shooting situation", Sgt. Johnston replied, "...The overriding reason for my preferring the Model 3000 (over the Model 870) is its (if I may use the term) 'jam proof' mechanism, and I am convinced that it is just that, having demonstrated it on numerous occasions. All else being equal, this one quality would decide the issue, because it is important to me..."
Just one man's opinion, for whatever it's worth-but something to think about...
dfariswheel
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The police really didn't see any problem, because the shotgun was typically kept in cruiser ready condition and all the officer had to do was pump the action.
Since very few incidents required a reload, and most police cars often had no reload ammo at all, or it was in the locked trunk, most officers never had to reload.
While it's at least possible to mis-feed the 870 during pumping, this is something you sort of have to work at to induce.
This was an issue, which Remington solved with the "flex-Tab" conversion.
The bottom line on the Model 3000 is that for all practical purposes it was nothing more than a clone of the 870 and after the Winchester Model 1200/1300 fiasco the police buyers were in no mood to buy something else just because it cost a little less.
Their attitude was why chance buying something "just like it, only cheaper" when they could have the well-tried and true original 870 that had served to perfection.
At the time, S&W was making a move to take over as much as the police market as they could. They introduced an ammo line and a holster line to go with their then-dominate revolver line, and figured a shotgun line would sew it up.
The 3000 didn't offer any real advantage over the well-proved 870, and the police stuck with it.
When you trying to sell a gun to the police and your only selling point is that it's not prone to a problem the cops just didn't see in the 870, you're not going to sell many. And S&W didn't.
In short, in the police market which is what S&W was making a try for with the 3000, Remington ate their lunch.
Another case of an otherwise good gun that just couldn't compete with the 870.
Since very few incidents required a reload, and most police cars often had no reload ammo at all, or it was in the locked trunk, most officers never had to reload.
While it's at least possible to mis-feed the 870 during pumping, this is something you sort of have to work at to induce.
This was an issue, which Remington solved with the "flex-Tab" conversion.
The bottom line on the Model 3000 is that for all practical purposes it was nothing more than a clone of the 870 and after the Winchester Model 1200/1300 fiasco the police buyers were in no mood to buy something else just because it cost a little less.
Their attitude was why chance buying something "just like it, only cheaper" when they could have the well-tried and true original 870 that had served to perfection.
At the time, S&W was making a move to take over as much as the police market as they could. They introduced an ammo line and a holster line to go with their then-dominate revolver line, and figured a shotgun line would sew it up.
The 3000 didn't offer any real advantage over the well-proved 870, and the police stuck with it.
When you trying to sell a gun to the police and your only selling point is that it's not prone to a problem the cops just didn't see in the 870, you're not going to sell many. And S&W didn't.
In short, in the police market which is what S&W was making a try for with the 3000, Remington ate their lunch.
Another case of an otherwise good gun that just couldn't compete with the 870.
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SwampWolf
Member
The police officer cited did see a problem and reported it as I documented. The fact that Remington "solved" the problem with the "Flex-Tab" conversion only bespeaks to the fact there was a problem at the time of the afore-referenced test comparison and that Remington apparently saw fit to correct said problem. To argue that the problem only manifested itself in the rare occasion of a reload is disingenuous at best: police officers reloading a shotgun is not an uncommon event and experiencing a jam whilst doing so, as Sgt. Johnston explained, could put an officer's life in jeopardy. The officers I served with would not consider a shotgun "misfeeding" a trivial happening.
Just to be clear, I have nothing against model 870s. In fact, I've always liked them and would concede that 870 failures are rare indeed. Furthermore, I offer no rationale for police departments not adopting the S & W Model 3000 enmasse instead of retaining the "tried and true" Remington. But to state that "...When you trying to sell a gun to the police and your only selling point is that it's not prone to a problem the cops just didn't see in the 870..." flies in the face of the report I cited. At least some officers, unaffected by misplaced loyalties, saw a problem and reported same. Whether the problem was consequential enough to mandate a change in weaponry I suppose is self-evident: the department I worked for and most others still rely on the venerable Remington Model 870 and the Model 3000 "clone" has mostly been forgotten.
Dfariswheel,what exactly is this Winchester 1200-1300 fiasco you speak of??
Curious minds would really like to know since I happen to own an older Win 1200 Defender as well as an 870 Police.
Both too me perform quite well with the Winchester feeling more of a natural for my body frame and size.
Curious minds would really like to know since I happen to own an older Win 1200 Defender as well as an 870 Police.
Both too me perform quite well with the Winchester feeling more of a natural for my body frame and size.
dfariswheel
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Whatever the benefits of the S&W Model 3000, the average police officer and the police buyers simply didn't see those kind of stoppages enough in the 870 to warrant changing to a foreign made gun with no track record.
At the time, foreign made pump guns didn't have a great reputation and law enforcement is conservative.
Whatever, the facts on the ground are that S&W tried very hard to sell the Model 3000 to law enforcement, and they weren't buying.
Possibly the cops were still suspicious of new guns after the Winchester mess.
In 1964 Winchester was pricing themselves out of the gun market with their old forged steel tank Model 12.
They just couldn't continue to compete with other brands made with aluminum and stampings, so they made the faithful decision to make major changes across the Winchester line.
Famously, this was a case of Winchester taking cold dead aim, and emptying the gun into their own foot.
The Model 12 was discontinued and replaced with a new aluminum and stamped steel Model 1200.
This was advertised as a more modern gun than the old Model 12 that was both lighter and better in all respects.
Winchester heavily sold the Model 1200 to law enforcement, who readily bought it because of the extraordinary reputation of the old 1897 and Model 12 guns the cops had used for 60 to 70 years.
The short version is, the new aluminum and stamped Model 1200 just failed to stand up to police use.
In the old days, "riot guns" were pretty much just that. They sat in headquarters racks until there was a riot, dangerous raid or shoot-out, or a major man hunt.
As soon as the emergency was over, they went back in the racks until next time.
All this changed in the 1960's when violent crime and anti-police radicals caused crime rates to explode.
The police response was to take the guns out of the racks and start putting them in squad cars.
Suddenly, wear and tear on the guns became an issue, but the old forged steel tank shotguns could handle it with no problem.
Where the problems appeared was in the new post-war aluminum and stamped steel guns. Companies like Winchester, High Standard, and others replaced forged steel guns with aluminum and stamped internals guns.
These guns had problems handling the heavy daily wear and the usual abuse the police give shotguns.
Typically, the shotgun was issued to the car, or to the next officer in line at roll call. This meant the shotgun was used by everyone but "owned" by no one.
As is always the case with anything used by everyone, the guns got abused and beaten around badly, often in the police night watch version of "Hold my beer and watch this".
The result was the new aluminum guns just didn't stand up too well.
The Winchester Model 1200 was heavily sold based on the Model 12's reputation, and when it failed to stand up to the use and abuse like the old guns, law enforcement lost confidence in it.
The problem was systemic. It wasn't any one issue Winchester could correct, it was simply the aluminum and stampings weren't durable enough.
When law enforcement made it clear that they wouldn't buy any more Model 1200's Winchester tried to fix the problems, then did a redesign and re-issued the gun as the Winchester Model 1300.
The Model 1300 did better, but still didn't stand up. As a result, American law enforcement virtually abandoned Winchester as a shotgun supplier and few major departments ever again bought a Winchester shotgun.
Among the new post-war guns was the Remington 870.
While other companies went with aluminum receivers and stamped and even plastic internals, Remington got it right with a forged steel receiver and heavy duty fabricated internals that was as strong as the old guns, but still cheaper to make.
The 870 stood up as well as the old forged steel guns, and the 870 captured the police market at levels above 95% of the market.
So, it wasn't that the Winchester 1200 was a "bad gun", it was designed using still new technology of aluminum castings and stamped internal parts that just wasn't up to the often unreasonable demands of police use.
The 870 could take it and continue to work and took over the police market, which it still owns by a large percentage.
It's hard to argue with success, and the 870 is the most successful pump shotgun ever made.
When you've earned a reputation that good in a market where the leader failed so badly with a new type of gun, it's hard to convince the once-burned buyers that your Japanese made gun is better.
All this is a matter of history. After 1964 Winchester's market share of police shotguns plummeted to nearly nothing.
The S&W Model 3000 was very aggressively sold to law enforcement, but saw very little gain of market share and was discontinued by S&W.
Remington's market share soared to over 95% of the market and stayed there, even when other guns were significantly cheaper to buy.
At the time, foreign made pump guns didn't have a great reputation and law enforcement is conservative.
Whatever, the facts on the ground are that S&W tried very hard to sell the Model 3000 to law enforcement, and they weren't buying.
Possibly the cops were still suspicious of new guns after the Winchester mess.
In 1964 Winchester was pricing themselves out of the gun market with their old forged steel tank Model 12.
They just couldn't continue to compete with other brands made with aluminum and stampings, so they made the faithful decision to make major changes across the Winchester line.
Famously, this was a case of Winchester taking cold dead aim, and emptying the gun into their own foot.
The Model 12 was discontinued and replaced with a new aluminum and stamped steel Model 1200.
This was advertised as a more modern gun than the old Model 12 that was both lighter and better in all respects.
Winchester heavily sold the Model 1200 to law enforcement, who readily bought it because of the extraordinary reputation of the old 1897 and Model 12 guns the cops had used for 60 to 70 years.
The short version is, the new aluminum and stamped Model 1200 just failed to stand up to police use.
In the old days, "riot guns" were pretty much just that. They sat in headquarters racks until there was a riot, dangerous raid or shoot-out, or a major man hunt.
As soon as the emergency was over, they went back in the racks until next time.
All this changed in the 1960's when violent crime and anti-police radicals caused crime rates to explode.
The police response was to take the guns out of the racks and start putting them in squad cars.
Suddenly, wear and tear on the guns became an issue, but the old forged steel tank shotguns could handle it with no problem.
Where the problems appeared was in the new post-war aluminum and stamped steel guns. Companies like Winchester, High Standard, and others replaced forged steel guns with aluminum and stamped internals guns.
These guns had problems handling the heavy daily wear and the usual abuse the police give shotguns.
Typically, the shotgun was issued to the car, or to the next officer in line at roll call. This meant the shotgun was used by everyone but "owned" by no one.
As is always the case with anything used by everyone, the guns got abused and beaten around badly, often in the police night watch version of "Hold my beer and watch this".
The result was the new aluminum guns just didn't stand up too well.
The Winchester Model 1200 was heavily sold based on the Model 12's reputation, and when it failed to stand up to the use and abuse like the old guns, law enforcement lost confidence in it.
The problem was systemic. It wasn't any one issue Winchester could correct, it was simply the aluminum and stampings weren't durable enough.
When law enforcement made it clear that they wouldn't buy any more Model 1200's Winchester tried to fix the problems, then did a redesign and re-issued the gun as the Winchester Model 1300.
The Model 1300 did better, but still didn't stand up. As a result, American law enforcement virtually abandoned Winchester as a shotgun supplier and few major departments ever again bought a Winchester shotgun.
Among the new post-war guns was the Remington 870.
While other companies went with aluminum receivers and stamped and even plastic internals, Remington got it right with a forged steel receiver and heavy duty fabricated internals that was as strong as the old guns, but still cheaper to make.
The 870 stood up as well as the old forged steel guns, and the 870 captured the police market at levels above 95% of the market.
So, it wasn't that the Winchester 1200 was a "bad gun", it was designed using still new technology of aluminum castings and stamped internal parts that just wasn't up to the often unreasonable demands of police use.
The 870 could take it and continue to work and took over the police market, which it still owns by a large percentage.
It's hard to argue with success, and the 870 is the most successful pump shotgun ever made.
When you've earned a reputation that good in a market where the leader failed so badly with a new type of gun, it's hard to convince the once-burned buyers that your Japanese made gun is better.
All this is a matter of history. After 1964 Winchester's market share of police shotguns plummeted to nearly nothing.
The S&W Model 3000 was very aggressively sold to law enforcement, but saw very little gain of market share and was discontinued by S&W.
Remington's market share soared to over 95% of the market and stayed there, even when other guns were significantly cheaper to buy.
SwampWolf
Member
This sounds like a good story and may well be true but I'd be interested in seeing the documentation and empirical evidence to support said account. The Mossberg shotgun, like the Model 870 , is full of stamped parts and has an alloy receiver to boot but the U.S. military has adopted it as one of their mainstay combat shotguns. Good design can trump better material (the AK 47 is a great example). Having both, of course, is having the best of both worlds.
In the case of the Model 870, isn't this just another way of saying "heavy duty" stamped parts?
dfariswheel
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The evidence is to check web bases listing the kinds and brands of guns used by law enforcement and look at the number of agencies that continued buying Winchester shotguns after 1964.
The numbers dropped like a rock to almost nothing and stayed there.
While I'm not selling the 870, I will say this about the Mossberg's use by the military.
Mossberg used to make a big deal that "Only Mossberg passed the grueling 3000 round US government tests and that the military issues Mossberg shotguns".
This infers that other makers (Remington) guns failed the test and that the Mossberg was a better gun.
The fact is, NO ONE other than Mossberg even bothered to submit a gun for testing.
The US shotgun test is not a "which gun is the BEST", it's simply a pass-fail test.
If your gun passes the minimum test, you're allowed to bid on the contract.
Since Remington wasn't going to be able to under price Mossberg's cheaper to make gun, there was absolutely no chance Remington was going to get the contract.
Why go to the high cost of entering a gun in a test when no matter what, you're not going to get the contract?
This was somewhat dishonest or at least deceptive advertising by Mossberg.
Truth is, almost any pump shotgun will last an owner for a very long time.
The only people who see actual problems with a design are either very high round count clay shooters, or police departments who use large numbers of guns.
The clay shooters say that the aluminum guns will start to wear out at around the 70,000 to 80,000 round mark, while the 870 begins to develop receiver cracks around the ejection port somewhere around the 250,000 round mark.
The police use large numbers of guns and when you put a few hundred thousand guns into the hands of police and your gun gives a lot of trouble, your design has problems.
The Winchester had problems.
This in no way means it's no good for the average shotgun owner.
The numbers dropped like a rock to almost nothing and stayed there.
While I'm not selling the 870, I will say this about the Mossberg's use by the military.
Mossberg used to make a big deal that "Only Mossberg passed the grueling 3000 round US government tests and that the military issues Mossberg shotguns".
This infers that other makers (Remington) guns failed the test and that the Mossberg was a better gun.
The fact is, NO ONE other than Mossberg even bothered to submit a gun for testing.
The US shotgun test is not a "which gun is the BEST", it's simply a pass-fail test.
If your gun passes the minimum test, you're allowed to bid on the contract.
Since Remington wasn't going to be able to under price Mossberg's cheaper to make gun, there was absolutely no chance Remington was going to get the contract.
Why go to the high cost of entering a gun in a test when no matter what, you're not going to get the contract?
This was somewhat dishonest or at least deceptive advertising by Mossberg.
Truth is, almost any pump shotgun will last an owner for a very long time.
The only people who see actual problems with a design are either very high round count clay shooters, or police departments who use large numbers of guns.
The clay shooters say that the aluminum guns will start to wear out at around the 70,000 to 80,000 round mark, while the 870 begins to develop receiver cracks around the ejection port somewhere around the 250,000 round mark.
The police use large numbers of guns and when you put a few hundred thousand guns into the hands of police and your gun gives a lot of trouble, your design has problems.
The Winchester had problems.
This in no way means it's no good for the average shotgun owner.
SwampWolf
Member
The "evidence" you speak of is not readily accessed even if it exists and, though the inference might be made that Winchester's products did not meet some police department's standards because they weren't procuring them, that in no way necessarily implies Winchester was making an inferior shotgun for police use. There could be all kinds of reasons why a police department would choose one firearm over another that doesn't involve issues of performance, durability or reliability. Or, as you claim, those could be the reasons in the case at hand. Who knows? I certainly don't and I don't think anybody else does. When I said I'd be interested in seeing real evidence that the use of an aluminum receiver and stampings by Winchester meant their shotguns "weren't durable enough" and "failed to stand up to police use", I was pretty certain that said evidence would be unattainable simply because it probably doesn't exist. So, we're left with the typical internet anecdotes, hyperbole and conjecture that may or may not have an element of truth to them and leaves me still looking for the evidence.
Whether only Mossberg and no others submitted to the military's test or not isn't the issue. The fact is that the military's test is a stringent one and Mossberg passed it, aluminum receiver, stamped parts and all. Most would agree that a shotgun deployed for military combat missions will encounter far more rigorous and environmentally challenging conditions regularly than any police department will encounter even on rare occasions. Which isn't to say that the Model 870, even with all of its stamped parts innards, couldn't pass the military test (Specification MIL-S-3443D); it's to say that the Mossberg 500 did.
In truth, there was very little in terms of design, material or workmanship changes in this transition to distinguish the Model 1200 from the Model 1300.
I'm very acquainted with how a police "riot" shotgun is treated by police personnel: it's carried a lot and shot (relatively) little. Being banged about mounted on the dash of a cruiser or stowed in the trunk is not going to cause any decently made shotgun to fail. Shooting it to its design and material limits will. Most police-issued shotguns will never come close to that "mysterious" round count line of demarcation in terms of shots fired.
I'm an old-timer who much prefers blued steel, machined parts and walnut stocks. I have an indefensible aversion to the use of plastic, aluminum or MIM parts in the making of a firearm. But I would be the first to concede guns made with tin can and Tupperware parts work and they can work for a long time, as well as making guns more affordable.
I prefer Winchester Model 12s to S&W Model 3000s, Winchester Model 1200/1300s, Remington Model 870s and Mossberg Model 500s. I prefer Remington Model 870s to S&W Model 3000s, Winchester Model 1200/1300s and Mossberg Model 500s. And I prefer Remington Model 31s to Remington Model 870s...
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