S&W Bodygaurd, the best snubby ever?

[isp2605]

OAN--isp2605, how'd you get your grips with that symbol in 'em? Special run or something?

Those are our miniature badges. I installed the top 2 myself. I outlined the grip and then cut the grip to where the badge fit flush. The bottom one was cold soldered by my SIL who is a jeweler.

 

[David E]

David E, I have to admit, I'm kind of curious.....why are you arguing with a physicist about things in his territory?

Who is arguing? You must've missed the part where said physicist AGREED with me on the high grip.

Different things work for different folks, that's why there's varieties of firearms out there. And you're not going to win people over to your line of logic by telling them why they're wrong and your method is supreme.

I'm not saying anyone is "wrong," per se. I'm only pointing out what works better rapid fire, defined as .30 or less between shots. My method does work better for the high backstrapped guns. For slowfire or recreational shooting, technique doesn't matter very much. To be blunt, it doesn't sound like anyone here is worried about accurate rapid fire, only slowfire. This may be the problem, even tho' I've defined it repeatedly. Everyone seems to read "my way is best for ALL shooting..." even tho that's not what I've written.

Besides....most people are more likely to take the side of a physicist in areas of his expertise, or one of the mods who've been shooting longer than many posters here have been alive, over the words of someone who claims to know more than either

I never claimed to know more than the physicist (about physics) or more than anyone else about anything. However, that doesn't mean I don't have something to contribute.

I have been shooting for quite some time, have seen the very best shooters in the world first hand, been to various shooting schools and have taught a multitude of students to shoot better and faster, etc.

I will tell you WHY I think this or that is "better" than something else. If you disagree, then fine, but at least you'll know WHY I think what I do.

Unlike many here, I won't bash someone's ideas or techniques with vague criticism...... At least the physicist offered specifics.

.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Hey David, if you wouldn't mind telling me, how old are you?

 

[David E]

Hey David, if you wouldn't mind telling me, how old are you?

My birthday is coming up in a couple months. Buy me a present and I'll tell you !

 

[Polish_Pounder]

My comment about slow fire was in reference to the 158 gr hunting loads only. The lighter bullet weights were being used for informal IDPA style shooting at the club. Where I shoot, having a draw + 1st shot time above 2 seconds is like a beer frame (you owe everyone a round). We were comparing them in practical use, and the revolvers were humpbacks being drawn from a belt slide type holster (I don't know the maker). Where does your standard of .3 second splits come from? That may be good for competition, but I certainly don't want to train myself to empty my gun in 2 seconds into a single target. What about target transition for multiple assailants, or proper target ID? Under stress we do what we have practiced, and speed demons are gonna end up with an empty gun in a hurry, which may not be the best thing if you are trying to defend yourself (on the street or in court). While rapid fire is important, I have no need or desire to shoot like Miculek in a self defense situation.

-Polish

 

[David E]

Where does your standard of .3 second splits come from?

It comes from the need to define what "rapid fire" really is. Many think that one shot per second is "rapid fire." It is not. And "as fast as I can pull the trigger" means squat, because people can pull the trigger at different speeds. I set .3 as a maximum time frame between shots to define "rapid fire." As a physicist, I'm sure you appreciate a clear definition over a speculative one. (By the way, Miculek's split times for his records were .14 or so.)

That may be good for competition, but I certainly don't want to train myself to empty my gun in 2 seconds into a single target.

Defending your life IS a competitive activity ! And who said anything about emptying the gun into a single target ? Certainly not me. Faster shots, on target, are better than slower shots on target.

What about target transition for multiple assailants, or proper target ID?

What about it ? Transitions are a good thing to practice as well. Proper target ID should be done prior to and during the draw. Once the decision to shoot the proper target(s) has been made, however, faster hits are better than slower hits.

Under stress we do what we have practiced, and speed demons are gonna end up with an empty gun in a hurry, which may not be the best thing if you are trying to defend yourself (on the street or in court). While rapid fire is important, I have no need or desire to shoot like Miculek in a self defense situation.

I suppose it depends on what you have practiced......or not practiced. I very rarely practice emptying my gun into a single target. Anyone that only does that is focusing on the wrong thing.

Jumping to your conclusion that the "speed demon will end up with an empty gun" is baseless. It IS possible to shoot fast AND be under control at the same time. This is often a difficult concept to grasp.

If you have "no need or desire to shoot like Miculek in a self defense situation," then I'd like to know who WOULD you prefer to shoot like? Someone slower ?

Faster hits on target are better than slower hits. If I had 4 armed guys that were getting ready to kill me, you can bet I'd like to be able to put 2 rounds into each of them in 1.06 seconds, first shot to last, like Jerry can do.

As for court, the FIRST priority is to defend myself and survive the encounter. The SECOND priority is to explain it in court, if necessary. People often reverse this sequence, overlooking the fact that if they don't survive, explaining it in court is moot !

.

 

[SwampWolf]

David E : I don't see how anybody could disagree with anything you said in your last post. Thirty years of training/qualifications has made me cognizant about an axiom in shooting a handgun in self-defense: be as fast as you can be accurate. Speed and accuracy are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Good training makes them partners.

And why is your age germane to anything being discussed?

 

[isp2605]

And why is your age germane to anything being discussed?

And why and how is any of this related to the topic which is about a S&W Bodyguard?

 

[David E]

David E : I don't see how anybody could disagree with anything you said in your last post. Thirty years of training/qualifications has made me cognizant about an axiom in shooting a handgun in self-defense: be as fast as you can be accurate. Speed and accuracy are not necessarily mutually exclusive. Good training makes them partners.

BINGO !!!!!!!

And why is your age germane to anything being discussed?

I suppose if I am "too young," then my comments can be ignored by those with more "experience."

If I am "too old," then my techniques are antiquated and can also be ignored.

(In truth, I am "just right!")

Oh, and I wish I'd never sold my Model 38 Bodyguard......it was the one I used to qualify with. At least I have a 642 and 442 to take its place.

 

[tipoc]

The Bodyguard is a gun I've seldom run across. I've never owned one. My first opinion of them was that they were ugly. I've changed my mind though.

I was drawn first to the Centennial and for the same reason most folks are, a good snag free pocket gun. Smooth all over like a carry gun oughta be. I still like these guns and have a good one.

Some years back I made a discovery though, actually I just figured a couple of things out. One was a limitation of mine the other just physics or maybe my physics.

In da shooting I'm better shooting a K frame or a Colt Detective Special size gun than I am a J frame. I'm faster and more accurate with the bigger guns. Part of this is that the structure of a J frame makes the trigger pull heavier than on a K frame and with I believe a shorter arc. This leads a fella with my hands to need a larger set of stocks on a J frame than makes for good concealment purposes. So like everything about guns I compromise. With a J frame I just ain't as fast or as accurate as with a K or my Colt Cobra. Most folks aren't I've noticed.

I also figure that to make up for this I like the single action capability of the Bodyguard type. My Cobra wears a shroud which renders it both capable of being fired from inside a pocket or bag and slick on the draw. (Yep I learned to draw with my thumb over the hammer a while back, but even so...).

My experience has shown that, knowing my limitations, the capability for a more accurate aimed single action shot at longer ranges in a defensive handgun is a useful thing. So a body guard seems useful to me.

tipoc

 

[Eightball]

My first opinion of them was that they were ugly. I've changed my mind though.

Why'd you change your opinion? They ARE ugly.

Doesn't mean it isn't a win in the functionality department. That's why I bought mine. I didn't buy it to win any beauty contests--it'll be beautiful in its own way if it ever sees light in a "situation," if you catch my drift.

 

[XavierBreath]

I got mine together for a group pic. Here they are.

 

[Mp7]

....i´ve never envied people for owning such ugly things - b4.

 

[tipoc]

Well I suppose they still are ugly or at least not as balanced as a Centennial or the Chief's Special family.

Shooting with your hand as high up on the backstrap as possible for most shooters acts to lower the axis of the bore in the hand (useful in wheelguns and semis both) and provide more leverage for a useful da pull. This is old school. Ed McGivern was taught to shoot this way.

Of course not everyones hands are the same and this has kept grip makers in business for generations. Selma Hayak and Kobe Bryant may both pick up a J frame but the same Uncle Mike's stocks may not be useful for both.

One of the drills I use on occasion for rapid da work is named the Higginbotham, after the fella who developed it. The drill is used in a couple of states for CCW qualification as I understand it. It begins with a target onto which you can affix a piece of paper 8 1/2" long by 5 1/2" wide. Stick this up 5 yards from you. From the low ready (or a draw) place 5 rounds in the paper in 2 seconds. At my range I have to begin a 7 yards. It's about controllability. The aim being to place all the shots into the piece of paper. When I get bored with 7 yards I run it out some. I find it a useful exercise.


tipoc

 

[saltydog452]

tipoc, post # 60 pretty much hit the nail TDC.

It can't hurt, and might help, so why not?

Ain't it amazing how brilliant minds seem to agree?

salty

ps.

Xavier oughta be arrested for hoarding a Natural Resource. He just needs to be educated about Biramis and Tylers.

sd.

 

[SAG0282]

I think the Bodyguard, the REAL Bodyguard and not the gun confused by the thread starter, is the best snubby by far. I love mine VERY much.

 

[saltydog452]

David said that if someone masters DA shooting, that they'd be no need for SA cocking of the hammer.

Thing is what anyone else thinks the rest of us may, or may not, need is'nt relevant.

My notion is that options are a good thing.

salty

 

[David E]

David said that if someone masters DA shooting, that they'd be no need for SA cocking of the hammer.

Actually, I said this:

With all due respect, once proper trigger control is learned, there is NO need for the single action feature on a 2" snubby.

Note the 2" snubby reference.

I didn't say squat about WANTING the single action option. I was framing my comment in the context of defensive use of a snubby. In that context, the comment stands.

But, if you like the SA option, then that's why they still make the Bodyguard series ! Buy one you like and shoot it often!

.

 

[tipoc]

One spot that I may disagree with David E on (or maybe it's just that I misunderstood his intent) is that on most guns an exposed backstrap is best. While I agree on the high hold on the question of open or enclosed backstraps I believe the shooters hand size, length of fingers, palm size, etc. play a role.

I mentioned before that the smaller size of the J frame makes for a heavier trigger pull while at the same time a shorter distance between the front of the trigger and the back strap. Given different hand sizes leverage on the trigger will be effected. A different set of stocks, matched to the shooter, often improve someones speed and accuracy. Finding those that suit your hands best is part of the fun of handgunning. To me anyway.

tipoc

 

[David E]

Let me clarify.......again.

My comments about the open backstrap with high grip apply specifically to the Bodyguard and Centennial style revolvers when it comes to rapid fire with serious loads. I did not say it applies to all revolvers all the time.

If hand fit is such that the person requires larger stocks, one must first wonder why they don't go to a larger gun (K-frame 2" Model 12) as adding large stocks to a small gun turns the small gun into a large one.

However, one does what one must to make things fit.

Certainly, rapidfire can still be accomplished with a lower grip, it just won't be quite as rapid as a high grip.

Maybe some think I'm picking nits, but if doing it one way decreases the time by 1/4 second per shot while maintaining accuracy, then that's the better way to do it.

I find that 1/4 second extremely significant.

 

[yeti]

Why do people say, "with all due respect", when the neither have, nor intend to give any?

 

[Big Matt]

I personally think that the bodyguards are very good looking revolvers. Certainly much better than the Centennial versions. But then again; we all know what can be said about opinions, as well as a certain part of the human anatomy....

 

[David E]

Why do people say, "with all due respect", when the neither have, nor intend to give any?

Speak for yourself.

.

 

[F1]

Those aluminum Bodyguards with the shrouded hammer are great guns. They only take non-plus P's, tho some say you can use plus p's for a carry load, but you're on your own then. S&W tech said, "don't even keep +P in the same room with it."

 

[Guillermo]

The Bodyguard is one of, if not the finest snubbies ever produced...no question.

As to all of the banter concerning double action, I find such to be silly.

That one could shoot a harder, longer trigger pull as well as a shorter smoother is a dubious claim at best. Even if such is true, why would you want to?

It is important to remember that the gun at hand may not be ideal for the job. You might have to take a long shot with a snubbie.