SA for CCW?

[David E]

And those who have practiced more can shoot a single action faster than most people can imagine.

Not one handed, tho.

TWO handed, you're absolutely correct.

In fact, a practiced pair of hands can keep up, if not surpass, the speed of a 1911 for the first 5-6 shots.

.

 

[ArmedBear]

Hear, hear.

Six-legged, and I'd be scared, though.

 

[ArmedBear]

Not one handed, tho.

Wrong.

There are nice old ladies in Idaho who could draw and shoot you center-mass with a single action before you had your DA out of its holster -- probably before you could fire a DA that was already out. One-handed.

Again, a DA is a more versatile choice, and a better one for CCW. However, I stand by what I said: people underestimate what a skilled SA shooter can do one-handed. Note that one-handed shooting was the standard, when the SAA was commonplace.

 

[scottishclaymore]

This strikes me as being an interesting idea. I haven't got a SAA, but I think if I had one I would want to spend just as much time drawing and firing as I do practicing drawing and firing my DA -- probably a little bit more. I don't think it's so much an inferior manual of arms as it is one that probably requires a little more initial practice to learn.

It occurs to me that people who say that a SAA wouldn't work for CC are a step away from people who say that a DA revolver is antiquated technology and inferior in a SD situation. In reality I think it is probably just a matter of what you've trained with and what you know.

If anybody ever works on that CC SAA revolver, I would be very, very interested in seeing how it turns out.

 

[ArmedBear]

Look at some of the video here: http://www.cowboyfastdraw.com/

 

[David E]

There are nice old ladies in Idaho who could draw and shoot you center-mass with a single action before you had your DA out of its holster -- probably before you could fire a DA that was already out. One-handed.

I doubt it. Especially if _I_ get to define the start position, like, both hands naturally at sides or even wrists above shoulders.

But that wasn't the point originally made. You changed it from firing SIX shots one handed to drawing and firing ONE shot out of a competition-only rig with hand or hands hovering millimeters over the gun anticipating an imminent start signal, ready to execute a funky only-good-for-fast-draw presentation. AND they're shooting blanks ! Or at best, wax bullets.

Totally different dynamics here and not related in the slightest to the original point.

I maintain that even the "good" single action shooters cannot fire SIX shots, one handed, as fast as someone can fire SIX shots one handed out of a DA revolver.

If you know of a Single Action shooter that can maintain split times (time between shots) of 14/100ths for SIX SHOTS one handed, let me know.

.

 

[Carl]

Capacity and reload time shouldn't be a big problem. How many times have any of you ever reloaded during a SD situation and had to fire more? Usually one shot into the criminal or brandishing the weapon without firing any shots usually ends the situation.

 

[Elbert P . Suggins]

David E, you sir haven't a clue what you are talking about. All of us that are proficient in SA can attest to the fact that SA is some of the time quicker than DA but ALL OF THE TIME more accurate. We work with a time restriction and there is no way that I can shoot as accurate DA as I can SA under timed shooting. You can pull the trigger as fast as you want to with DA and try to be point on but you will never beat SA mode. Don't even bring up Munden because there is nobody better. You can DA or Semi all you want to at your bad guy, take out his shoulder, crotch, or hip, but you pull Single action on your bad guy with a 45LC and his Johnson gets buried in the dirt. Throw the speed loaders and clips out in the trash and carry technology that has worked since 1847. Gee Whiz Good God Almighty!

 

[1911Tuner]

With a CAS chapter at the range that I belong to, I get to watch those guys...and gals...do their thing. There's one who does a fast-draw exhibition and he's...well...pretty damn quick. He does it with wax bullets and primers only in special cases that accept shotgun primers. ( A neat setup, by the way.)

I asked him how he could do with live ammo. He answered honestly:
"For the first shot...just as fast as with the wax. For followup shots...it depends on whether I'm using the low velocity/recoil "game" ammunition, or full-power .45 Colt loadings. (250 grains at 900 fps from a 4.75-inch barrel.) The live game ammo will slow me down, and the full house stuff will slow me down even more. It's recoil...just like with any other platform."

So, while the 1873 SAA holds the distinction of being the fastest out of the gate for the first shot...beyond that, it falls apart even in the hands of a pro if the ammunition is suitable for serious purpose.

Trust me. The original .45 Colt BP loading and the SAAMI standard modern loadings aren't exactly what I'd call anemic. Until the appearance of the .357 Magnum in 1935, it was the most powerful handgun cartridge in the world...a niche that it occupied for over 60 years.

That said...Recently I've been carrying a '73 SA clone in the form of a 4.75 Cimarron Model P in .44 Special. It's surprisingly easy to carry...compact...and so well-balanced that the 38 ounce heft feels much lighter, and it points like the finger of God...or as Wyatt Earp noted: The Colt's revolver falls on target with a deadly certainty." (Or was that Bat Masterson?)

Because of its accurate reproduction, it's carried as a 5 shooter...hammer down on an empty chamber. No, I don't keep a rolled-up double sawbuck in the empty chamber.

I feel not at all under armed with it in *most* places that I carry it. If I plan to go to or through areas that are a little more prickly than knockin' around centeral Davidson to Southmont and points south by southeast...I revert back to the 1911.

I also sometimes carry a .45 caliber Ruger New Vaquero, a platform which I'm becoming more enamored with the more I shoot it...and firing a 255 grain cast lead SWC and 9 grains of Unique,
it hits hard.

Yeah. I know. A handload is a liability, and shouldn't be used for defense. I figure that...at my age and condition...using a "Western Style" revolver without "killer hollowpoint" ammo...one might tend to cancel the other out.

"It's target ammo. It's just a plain, old lead bullet made for punching holes in paper. I used it because: A...It's cheap, and B...it's all I had on hand, and C...I could have brung the .44 Magnum if I'd wanted all that killer-diller power."

 

[Elbert P . Suggins]

And here is something else to consider, I legally carry concealed on some days when I damn well feel like it black powder in the form of an 1858 Remington 44 cal. which as some of you may know can be loaded with six and carried safely. Also a speed loader pouch with 2 cylinders that are primed and I can put 18 rounds down range with this system and still reholster in under 30 seconds. And if the bad guy isn't down after 3 rounds then his shirt is on fire and the fire dept will also have to respond also.

 

[ArmedBear]

One does need to compare apples with apples, WRT recoil.

Full power .45 Colt in, say, a S&W Mountain Gun, is going to recoil significantly also. However, followup shots can be relatively quick, a tad quicker than a 4 5/8" SAA, which is a fair comparison when you consider size and weight.

My point is simply this: David E, you might picture someone just fumbling with a single action by the third shot. However, if someone actually does practice and gets good, you'd be mistaken.

SASS has a Double Duelist class, one gun in each hand. It's a speed competition, obviously.

Not everyone can do it when they first try it, but with enough practice, it can be done. Recoil slows it down -- but it does slow down DA shooting as well.

It's similar to the endless hi-cap auto vs. defensive revolver argument. Yeah, 13+1 > 7, but the difference in effective self-defense isn't as significant as auto-only shooters imagine. Same goes for DA vs SA.

 

[ArmedBear]

if the bad guy isn't down after 3 rounds then his shirt is on fire and the fire dept will also have to respond also.

When we have an inversion, you'd probably get arrested for causing excess pollution, too.

I love the NMA, myself. I have to get a holster for mine (and some internals for the oldest one).

 

[1911Tuner]

This is turnin' out to be a good thread.

My...um...sainted grandfather was a WW1 vet who carried and used a 1911 pistol. When he came home, he went back to the same 1873 SAA that he'd owned and carried from the age of 12.

I first saw him use it when he was about 65 or so. Even with his old eyes, he could knock apples off the tree at 20 paces nearly every time from the draw...surprisingly fast.
It was the first time I'd ever seen anyone point-shoot, and it was impressive.

He talked about the revolver versus the autopistol to some extent, and said although the 1911 was faster to reload, that:

"I figger that if I live long enough to shoot 6 rounds, I'll have all the time I need to reload."

He carried the gun as a 5-shooter around the house. When he went to "town" it was topped off with the firing pin resting between chambers, cushioned on the rims. (Town, for many years was Harlan Kentucky...aka "Bloody Harlan.") When he moved to Fordtown, Tennessee...he still carried it. If he had his pants on, he had that Colt on him. When he died, my uncle came and got the gun...loaded with the hammer down on an empty chamber. It was on the nightstand beside the bed.

I mistakenly "remembered" that the gun was a .44 Special...but research has turned up the location of the gun...and it's a .44WCF, or as it's more commonly known .44-40.

 

[Elbert P . Suggins]

Armed Bear, you should be safe in south Idaho as far as inversion violations, but up here in central Idaho we live on the reservation and the air quality standards are stiffer. So you can only shoot Black Powder from Monday thru Friday and the weekends and holidays is off limits. So that is why I only carry BP concealed five days a week and actually shooting BP illegally after dark during an inversion you will never get caught and the fire and sparks from ALL directions is kind of like the 4th of July in time you want.

 

[ArmedBear]

LOL

One more note...

I have a Colt clone with aftermarket springs in it, and cocking it is WAY different from wrestling with a stock Super Blackhawk. Single Actions aren't all created equal, WRT speed. I like the SBH, but it occupies another niche IMO.

 

[David E]

David E, you sir haven't a clue what you are talking about. All of us that are proficient in SA can attest to the fact that SA is some of the time quicker than DA but ALL OF THE TIME more accurate.

I was laughing pretty hard reading your response........then I realized you were serious !

Now, with all due respect, what makes YOU think that you are "proficient" at all ? Much less if you're proficient in ways that matter?

We work with a time restriction and there is no way that I can shoot as accurate DA as I can SA under timed shooting.

I believe you!

But you're introducing yet another unrelated element to the discussion. It sounds like you are talking strictly about Bullseye shooting when no one else was. "Timed" fire is what, 5 rounds in TEN seconds? For recreational shooting with known time frames, knock yourself out and cock the hammer for each shot. You have plenty of time to do so.

But the original question had to do with carrying a Single Action revolver for CCW defense, purposes. That's where MY comments are focused on, not recreational Bullseye shooting ! So let's compare YOUR time with mine on a 7 yd IPSC target for five shots, starting from a concealed holster, hands at sides. You can only use ONE hand, as will I.

You can pull the trigger as fast as you want to with DA and try to be point on but you will never beat SA mode.

Depends on the venue and the task being accomplished. For defense, a good DA is better suited than a good SA. This does NOT mean that a practiced hand with an SA is as good as dead. Quite the contrary.

Throw the speed loaders and clips out in the trash and carry technology that has worked since 1847.

Be sure and alert ALL the law enforcement agencies world wide that they've been doing it all wrong !!!

.

 

[David E]

My point is simply this: David E, you might picture someone just fumbling with a single action by the third shot. However, if someone actually does practice and gets good, you'd be mistaken.

That's not at all what I picture. Where did you get that idea ?

My first several guns were single actions and I got to be pretty decent with them.

But they won't keep up with a DA when shooting them one handed. THAT is my point.

.

 

[Carl]

I just figure, if you're good and comfortable with a SA, then nobody is stopping you from making that choice. If you're not comfortable with a semi auto or DA revolver then you'll less likely be willing to get a lot of range time and practice out of it whether it be because of recoil or grip comfort. If you're confident and comfortable with a SA, then that can do a lot more in a SD situation since you wont' be worried and nervous if your new unfamiliar semi auto that everyone said would be better for SD has all the safeties on or off and if it'll fire when you squeeze the trigger and not jam on an extracting round. (or whatever else could go wrong with a Semi auto)

Bottom line, whatever you want to do is fine. Nobody can tell you to otherwise, if they do then it's infringement on your 2nd.

 

[JWF III]

But a SD handgun should be as effective as possible. I see nothing logical about handicapping your self because you don't like the looks of newer designs.

So do you think Bob Munden is handicapped by it at all?

Sorry for being the educated donkey, but I think if the carrier is proficient with the weapon, it doesn't matter what it is. It's just easier for the average person to become proficient with a semi or a DA.

Wyman

 

[qwert65]

can we please not get this thread locked?

 

[qwert65]

David E when I use 45acp in my bh I have no problem working the hammer quickly. the recoil is actually less as it is a heavier gun, further as the gun rocks back you thumb the hammer back. I know it sounds cumbersome but it's not. To compare you need weapons using the same load. my ruger security six snub with 357s is no way easier to bring back on target, now with 38s it's easier then my BH but I'm carrying 38s not 45's.
One other point is that you have to time the entire sequence ie the time the SA is buying you in the beggining is there at the end. I'm not going to say that SA is quicker but I will say it's the same speed, and if you want to argue fractions of a second. remember in trained hands the first shot(which is quicker then DA) is the most important and the SA is hitting (usually) with a much heavier caliber.

 

[Carl]

Agreeing with qwert65, I don't want my thread locked because of a few personal remarks between some members that decided to step off the high road. This is an interesting topic that I want to hear more educated opinions and suggestions on.

 

[thunder173]

Interesting thread going here. If everyone would cool down,...it could be some useful reading.

Back in #25, I mentioned two rules of a gunfight,...I forgot to mention one other. "Have the resolve to use what ya brung."

I have known a lot of really good pistolero's over the years. Some were and are very quick,..some very accurate,..some both,..with SA revolvers, DA's and semi auto's alike.

I have also known hard men, who have strong resolve, that I wouldn't want to square off with if all they had was a .22 peashooter. They were and are tough enough mentally to USE what they bring..and they know how. I also know,...and have known,.. excellent gunner's,... that probably don't possess that mental toughness necessary to kill another man. Just saying it like it is.

You can pull the trigger on paper as fast and as many times as a stop watch and clicker can measure or count,...but can you do that against another man who is about to do the same to you,.,.. and can you keep your cool well enough take him out first?

So,...let's carry on the thread like gentlemen,..and ladies as well if you weigh in,...and see if an intelligent conversation can take place on the matter of CCW'ing the SA Revolver,......

 

[BigBlock]

This is an interesting topic that I want to hear more educated opinions and suggestions on.

I think you've heard about all there is to hear. You might also go and check one of the other 25 or so threads asking this EXACT same question over and over.

Don't act like this is some new unexplored topic.:banghead:

 

[Carl]

Making a new thread about an old topic is a good way to get opinions from new members that are unaware of the old threads as well as opinions of older members that might have changed their view of things due to experiences since the time the old threads were made.