SA vs DAO rate of fire...

[Kiln]

Alright so right now, I'm stuck in an argument with a bunch of guys on another forum about fire rate in seni automatics. Is it mechanically or humanly possible to fire a double action only semi automatic pistol as fast as a single action semi automatic pistol.

For me, it seems simple. A lighter/shorter trigger with a faster reset should be able to have a higher fire rate than a pistol that requires a long reset time between shots and has a longer draw/heavier trigger.

Am I wrong? I own tons of SA pistols and DAO pistols, even firing as fast as possible, I see a noticeable difference between the two action types.

 

[Chopdoktor]

You're exactly right for the reasons you stated. Shorter pull and reset, generally lighter weight trigger break = higher rate of fire.

 

[rcmodel]

Who cares.

It takes the average man longer then the re-set on either type to bring the gun down and align the sights again.

I'd guess though, that the SA would always win.
If making noise was the only measurement of success.

You can bump-fire a 1911 so fast it sounds like a full-auto.
You can't with any DOA.

rc

 

[Sam Cade]

Well, if we take Mr.Miculek's 8 rounds in once second as the limit of human ability with a revolver that gives us a cyclic rate of 480 rounds per min.
I've seen videos of him shooting a 1911 at what works out to roughly 500 RPM.

A true machine pistol like a G18 runs at upwards of 1,200 RPM depending on ammunition.

 

[chris in va]

I knew Miculeck's revolver would come up. That thing is so slicked up and lightened it practically shoots itself. Take that same revolver with stock trigger and springs and there is no comparison to a stock SAO. This is the main reason why I converted my 97b to SAO for our competitions.

Now here's the weird thing. I can shoot my Kahr K9 just as accurately if not better than my P01, mainly because the DA pull removes any flinch I may have.

 

[Racinfan83]

I suppose it depends on trigger pull and ability...but -
I had a SIG 226 DAO and I absolutely HATED it. I have fired Daisy BB guns with triggers 10 times better. I am an experienced shooter and I'm tellin Ya - that was probably the worst trigger I ever pulled. Traded that for an XDM which of course is DAO - and that is a WHOLE LOT better. My M9 is really nice in SA as well, not so much on that first DA pull though.

 

[Kiln]

The XDM is single action.

 

[MrBorland]

I knew Miculeck's revolver would come up. That thing is so slicked up and lightened it practically shoots itself.

It's known that Miculek's revos aren't lightened. They're smooth, but not necessarily light.

At any rate, I can't shoot a SA pistol any faster than a DA revolver. I hit a hard "speed limit" at 0.19 - 0.20 sec splits, and I suspect it's more a matter of how my brain controls my finger than it is the platform.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Is it mechanically or humanly possible to fire a double action only semi automatic pistol as fast as a single action semi automatic pistol.

If you disregard accuracy, than the answer is no.

If you include hitting a target...any target...than the answer is a resounding yes

I've seen a S&W M19 beat a Beretta 92 (LE class shoot off), a SIG 226 DAK beat a whole bunch of DA/SA SIG 226/228/229 (SIG class), and a S&W 627 beat numerous 1911s, including Open guns, compensated and equipped with optics (but I think that was more the shooter)

For me, it seems simple. A lighter/shorter trigger with a faster reset should be able to have a higher fire rate than a pistol that requires a long reset time between shots and has a longer draw/heavier trigger.

Am I wrong?

As a matter of fact you are mistaken in general, but correct in a limited sense. If you are running the triggers in the way you describe, the SA pistol will be faster...because you aren't running either platform using the optimal technique for fast and accurate shooting.

Both guns should have their triggers reset while their muzzles are raising. As the gun comes back down, the SA gun's trigger should be prepped to fire as soon as the sights land. The DAO trigger would also reset while the gun is raising, but the next trigger pull starts as soon as the trigger resets...so that the shot breaks as soon as the sights land. There is actually less lag time in the DAO trigger firing the next shot, because the trigger never stops moving.

Using the optimal technique, both gun will be able to accurately shoot at the same speed for a given shooter. The limiting factor is how quickly they can see the aligned sights on target and how long it takes for that to cue the final pressure on the trigger.

So if just comparing trained and practiced shooters, the DAO trigger will actually allow faster accurate shots...because you're driving the trigger, rather than the sights

BTW: MrBorland's observation about Miculek's revolvers is pretty well known. Lightening the springs on his trigger would only slow him down

 

[Glocktogo]

All semi-autos can cycle faster than a mere mortal can manipulate the trigger. The G-17 for example runs about .05 sec per shot. Even a heavyweight trigger slapper is going to max out around .12-.15 sec.

However, physics would dictate that the faster the reset, the faster the splits. Reset speed would be just as, if not more important than reset travel. Some examples:

One of the longest resets around is the Beretta 92/96D, DAO. I can run one at about .25.
A S&W DAO (5906) is about a .22-.23.
My S&W Model 19 with a 9# DA trigger is about .22, even though the reset is longer than the 5906.
My 686 with an APEX Level IV ICORE trigger (5# DAO) is a .20 split.
I can run a Glock consistently at .18 splits.
I can get .16-.17 splits with a tuned 1911, but hits depend on the timing of the gun.

For most people it really depends on what they can train their trigger finger to do and how comfortable they are with it.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I knew Miculeck's revolver would come up. That thing is so slicked up and lightened it practically shoots itself. Take that same revolver with stock trigger and springs and there is no comparison to a stock SAO. This is the main reason why I converted my 97b to SAO for our competitions.

Absolutely incorrect. Jerry Miculek's revolvers are fitted with HEAVIER springs because he is so fast he will outrun the gun with stock or lighter springs. This is not a guess but fact, it was discussed on one of the gun shows...

BUT, we are talking about the he who is probably the best revolver shooter ever to live. BTW, he is just as fast with a semi-auto pistol, AR type rifle and the shotgun too... The man is not human. (but I mean that in a good way)

 

[HisStigness]

The OP's logic makes sense to me also.
rcmodel I think DOA means Dead On Arrival

 

[TestPilot]

What limits my rate of fire is the speed of aim recovery, not the speed I can pull the trigger.

 

[couldbeanyone]

I have to agree with MrBorland. My finger will only go so fast, regardless of action type, about a .20 split.

 

[BSA1]

Rate of fire only

OR

Rate of fire while effectively putting your rounds on target?

 

[Drail]

It's all in the fingers.

 

[ATLDave]

So if just comparing trained and practiced shooters, the DAO trigger will actually allow faster accurate shots...because you're driving the trigger, rather than the sights

I was with you for most of your post until you said this^^. If that's the case, then why do open and limited class shooters in a sport like IPSC/USPSA (who can, as you know, use any kind of trigger they please) not opt for a DAO trigger?

 

[jmr40]

Generally I'd say most SA would be faster than most DOA. Glock and possibly the M&P are the exceptions. Probably others too, but I've used those two. They are technically DOA, but feel and shoot more like SA with a very short trigger reset.

 

[Racinfan83]

The XDM is single action

Yeah I stand corrected. Late Middle Age brain fart. I still stand by my statement about that DAO SIG I had being the worst trigger I ever pulled ...

 

[9mmepiphany]

I was with you for most of your post until you said this^^. If that's the case, then why do open and limited class shooters in a sport like IPSC/USPSA (who can, as you know, use any kind of trigger they please) not opt for a DAO trigger?

Because the 1911 trigger allows shooters to fudge on the fundamentals and slap through the trigger with a less negative repercussions (pulled shots)

I wasn't referring to 1911 shooters specifically...just middle of the road shooters shooting their DA/SA guns in SA.

There is absolutely no difference in speed to the first accurate shot between a DA and SA trigger, because you're prepping the trigger on the pressout and breaking the shot as your arms reach extension. It takes longer to get there than to press the trigger. However, most newer shooters will be more accurate with a DA trigger press than a SA one, because of the temptation to jerk the SA trigger when the sights are on-target...the folks shooting DA have their mind too occupied with making a smooth DA trigger stroke to think about jerking the trigger. They are staying in the process of pressing the trigger.

A DAO and a SAO trigger stroke are exactly the same except for the distance the trigger travels during the stroke. Since that all occurs between shots anyway, there isn't much difference until you get to the higher levels of trigger management

 

[Jim K]

IIRC, Ed McGivern, who was no slowpoke with a gun, once said that he could fire a revolver (S&W) faster than a semi-auto because with the revolver he didn't have to wait for the gun to work. But he, like Miculek, he was a lot faster than any of us could ever hope to be. But a semi-auto with a long DAO trigger would seem to be the worst of both worlds, a combination of both a long pull (like the revolver) and the delay built into the functioning of the gun.

Jim

 

[MrBorland]

IIRC, Ed McGivern, who was no slowpoke with a gun, once said that he could fire a revolver (S&W) faster than a semi-auto because with the revolver he didn't have to wait for the gun to work. But he, like Miculek, he was a lot faster than any of us could ever hope to be.

A semi-auto can cycle at 1200rpm. Not taking anything away from their skill, but neither McGivern nor Miculek were/are anywhere near that fast. I suspect they rode/ride the trigger on reset, letting it push their finger forward. They might claim they'd have to wait on the trigger, but it's much more likely that what's otherwise considered a bad habit would result in short-stroking if the trigger were lightened. Miculek's got power to spare in his trigger finger, so it works for him.

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

A semi auto with a broken sear CAN fire at a high rate, like 120rpm. But try operating a functional pistol, pulling the trigger, and it cannot be done as fast as Miculek or McGivern. I believe McGivern said he could be faster with a single action than DA.

 

[RX-79G]

I used to shoot competition in Nevada against a guy who was amazing with a .38 snub revolver. I couldn't believe how fast and accurately he shot, regardless of the gun.

Someone with the right trigger control can certainly shoot a given DAO as fast as just about anyone can shoot an SA. It is just less likely.

 

[torqem]

The SA's advantage only exists at ranges that are quite unrealistic for justifiable civilian defensive firing (ie, beyond 5 yds) The top hands, using DAO pocket 9's, for chest hits at 10 ft, are considerably faster for repeat hits than 99% of 1911 users, believe it. like nearly twice as fast, nearly 3x as fast as an alloy .44 special snubby, or same frame 357 snubby. It's not so much the trigger pull as it is the "line of recoil" of the gun's design. Getting the sights back on target doesn't have much to do with realistic defense, cause the range is 5 ft or so.

McGivern said the opposite, DA faster than SA, but he was a liar, about quite a few things.. He claimed that he could cycle a 1911 so fast that it would malfunction, Trigger fanning the SA auto with the off hand proves that such a thing can't be done with normal trigger manipulation. And you are wrong about the SA auto not being faster than Jerry's DA revolver splits. .12 second splits have been attainable with 1911's, for 30 years now. Jerry's times with the revolver were .14 second