Saiga 7.62x39 vs .223 questions/thoughts

[stealth]

Well, I'm looking to get a Saiga 16" very soon, But have been hung up on this one for awhile (and yes, i have searched and read just about every saiga comment on THR).

7.62x39 or .223(Saiga is 5.56x45 capable as well)

Primary use I guess you could say is SHTF, HD in a pinch and practice + plinking. Conversion is a possibility.

I've seen very little posts with people who have experience with both of these calibers in the Saiga.
Pros and Cons would be very helpful.

some points of interest.
-.223 any less reliable in the AK's (natively 7.62x39) action?
-.223, the more accurate version? (barrel thickness)
-Reloading easier/cheaper in any given caliber? (AFAIK 7.62 Saiga is .3105 bore)
-Converted Saiga .223's mags less sturdy/reliable as common 7.62x39?
-.223/5.56x45 the better SHTF caliber? (think availability)
-7.62x39 ammo choice less 'sensitive' (as the .223 MUST expand .087 to equal effectivness) choosing the wrong bullet for the wrong range could result in a mere .223 hole.
-Recoil, noticable or moot?
-Saiga chews up brass casings?

Thats all I can remember at this point, lol. Anyhow for those of you who own both, You'd come into your own on this one, fellas. t/y

 

[aka108]

Have one of each. My experience is that the 223 has a edge on accuracy and if you reload the 223 bullets are less expensive than the ones for the 7.62x39. Little less recoil on the 223. You will get some dented brass in either but your sizing die will keep the stuff workable.

 

[Don't Tread On Me]

some points of interest.
-.223 any less reliable in the AK's (natively 7.62x39) action?

Not really. It could be argued that the x39 is more reliable. For example, the .223 sometimes requires chamfering the chamber face. x39 cartridge feeds better due to its conical shape. The main factor comes from magazines. x39 mags are for x39. More on that below.

-.223, the more accurate version? (barrel thickness)

I doubt it. The only thing that would make it more accurate is the barrel thickness to bore size ratio. The .223 is a stiffer barrel for the cartridge it is shooting. The real difference comes from the ammunition. With x39...you're pretty much limited to Russian ammo. The .223 you can shoot some match-grade ammo or just decent quality commercial ammo and that will be a lot more accurate than Wolf.

-Reloading easier/cheaper in any given caliber? (AFAIK 7.62 Saiga is .3105 bore)

Without question, this goes to the .223. 7.62x39 reloading is just not in the same league as .223 when it comes to costs, availability and practicality. However, x39 factory ammo is cheaper. So overall, the x39 is the cheaper rifle to feed unless you have a fairly decent reloading setup that can do the volume you expect to shoot in .223.

-Converted Saiga .223's mags less sturdy/reliable as common 7.62x39?

Depends. They require a lot more modification. The x39 mags require nothing. Depending on the .223 mag, it may need grinding in multiple places, some require building up the front of the mag to serve as a "ramp" ...the availability is much less in .223 mags, they are more expensive and that is also true of the magazines that are suitable for "conversion" ...With the x39, all you have to do is grind down the mag catch and install the feedramp on the rifle (you have to do this for the .223 also anyway) and you use stock AK mags without bothering them. And they are cheaper too. In short, with the x39, you modify the rifle in 2 simple ways and all the x39 mags will work flawlessly without modification, and they'll keep compatibility with other AK rifles too (if that's a concern).

.223/5.56x45 the better SHTF caliber? (think availability

That's a thread of it's own. I'd say they are close to equal but with the .223 having the edge. .223 won't be hurt as badly by an "import ban" and there's a well established reloading market for .223 (brass/bullets). Try looking for 7.62x39mm brass and cheap .311 bullets. Not the same. The x39 has one key advantage in that is really is a better penetrating round. Say, if you have to punch through a cinderblock wall ...the x39 will do it. In a SHTF though, I don't think it is wise to shoot at walls at blind targets and waste ammo or kill innocents.

-7.62x39 ammo choice less 'sensitive' (as the .223 MUST expand .087 to equal effectivness) choosing the wrong bullet for the wrong range could result in a mere .223 hole.

I wouldn't worry about that. Don't make your decision based on which will do the super-duper gelatin wound channel test better. The reality is both are going to put a serious hurting on whatever they hit. They each have not been the 2 major calibers of the last 40-50 years for no reason. You are not undergunned with either. Hits count, not misses. Don't worry so much this factor. More mental energy and research should be placed in training, techniques and mindset rather than insignificant differences in caliber effectiveness. Trust me on this one. People nitpick ammo on the internet to death, but won't lift a finger to advance themselves in any other area of firearm self defense. Makes no sense at all.

-Recoil, noticable or moot?

Both are mild. Then again, I'm not recoil sensitive. The .223 has about 1/2 of the recoil of the x39. But the x39 isn't a lot of recoil anyway. The only advantage here is .223 is easier to keep the muzzle on target. Less recovery time, which makes it faster.

-Saiga chews up brass casings?

Yes. All AK's do. Big beefy extractor, nice sloppy wide chambers (reliable), that huge fixed ejector ...brass does get a bit more beat up out of an AK than it would out of say, an AR-15. When Kalashnikov designed it, he wasn't worried about reloaders - his primary concern was the most reliable ejection possible, even if that means dented and beat up brass (they use steel anyway)

 

[SN13]

I have the x39 in 20" barrel. I do not have the .223. That being said, I get 2-3" groups at 100yrds with Wolf MC HP ammo.

$200 for 1000 x39 shipped to you is easily found online. (Ammoman.com)

I've hit a 12" steel plate at 565 yrds with the iron sights (not bragging about me, but about the gun as being not "inaccurate") about 4 out of 10 shots (the others landing inches outside according to my spotter)

I've heard the .223 is more accurate, and I don't doubt it, Flatter trajectory and the barrel OD on the .223 vs x39 are identical.

I converted my own x39 on my own with hand tools and a dremel.... the second one was alot easier with a drill.

It really all boils down to preference as I've not read anything on Saiga-12.com that suggests the .223 is any less reliable.

I'd worry mostly about initial ammo cost since at .20 per shot, it'll be cheaper to shoot factory ammo than reload for a long time. The cheap .223 will run you .40-.50 per shot but you can reload it if (A) you can find the brass, and (B) it's not dented all to hell.

Oh and one more thing, the x39 has a step-down in the chamber along the case neck to show that it's a civilian AK (Russian mandate, it's in the owner's manual) and the .223 has a rim on the bolt face that leaves an indent on the bottom of the brass (Same type of distinguishing mark but in a different location) The .223 is easily remedied if you're patient with a small, flat grinding stone.... the x39 you're stuck with but it doesn't affect reloads (or so i read) and some don't even re-size the neck bulge while reloading.

 

[rangerruck]

I agree with everything the dude above me has said, except I think the brass dents are mostly caused by it hitting the charging handle, or the edge of the ejector port, on the way out. There is a dude over on saiga12 with a fix for this. Accuracy 223 is better, however, i scope neither or mine, they will both shoot hogs on the run at 100 yds like butta, so if you need it for shtf, then accuracy worries are negligible here.

 

[rangerruck]

Oh, and yeah, I have had all 3 cals, sold them all, and now still have again the 223 and the 762.39. neither are ever leaving me again.

 

[TheDriver]

Get both, but I'd get the x39 first. Master Molder mags are cheap ($11) and require a 45 second mod to work with the x39. (I got the x39 first, due to my slight bias for more robust eeeeevil rifle rounds. I have both now )

 

[SSN Vet]

good analysis posted above....

I'll add one point.

If you're really cheap (like me ) you can cast for the x39.

There are molds and dies specifically for this and despite a lot of boo-whooing about lead clogging the gas port by posters who haven't tried it, there is very reliable load info. out there from noteworthy figures such as Ed Harris.

At $.02/ea. for copper gas checks, you can cast some of the most accurate x39 ammo. possible, loaded up to darn near factory ammo velocities (2,000 fps+)

.223 velocities (~3,000 fps) are not really obtainable wth cast bullets.

In my simple mind....there are some specific calibers that go naturally with a specific platform. I'd opt for each platform in the caliber that made it famous as a first pick.

7.62x39 = SKS & AK (commie guns for commie calibers)
.223/5.56x45 = AR-15/M-16
.308/7.62x51 NATO = M-14/M1A
.45 ACP = M1911
.30 WCF = Model 1894

 

[Darth AkSarBen]

"Oh and one more thing, the x39 has a step-down in the chamber along the case neck to show that it's a civilian AK (Russian mandate, it's in the owner's manual) and the .223 has a rim on the bolt face that leaves an indent on the bottom of the brass (Same type of distinguishing mark but in a different location) The .223 is easily remedied if you're patient with a small, flat grinding stone.... the x39 you're stuck with but it doesn't affect reloads (or so i read) and some don't even re-size the neck bulge while reloading."

Only one problem with this idea of grinding down the raised area on the bolt face. It changes the headspace and can, and more than likely, make it out of tolerance for proper headsapce. Bolt contact to the neck shoulder is the headsapce of the .223. Unfortunately, the first part that it contacts is around the primer... that raised area. and any changes there change head space.

 

[WardenWolf]

Well, I'm looking to get a Saiga 16" very soon, But have been hung up on this one for awhile (and yes, i have searched and read just about every saiga comment on THR).

7.62x39 or .223(Saiga is 5.56x45 capable as well)

Primary use I guess you could say is SHTF, HD in a pinch and practice + plinking. Conversion is a possibility.

I've seen very little posts with people who have experience with both of these calibers in the Saiga.
Pros and Cons would be very helpful.

some points of interest.
-.223 any less reliable in the AK's (natively 7.62x39) action?

My .223 Saiga has been 100% reliable. No problems whatsoever.

-.223, the more accurate version? (barrel thickness)

The .223 barrel is an underbored 7.62x39 barrel. They use the same receiver. The barrel is VERY thick, but also very heavy. The barrel probably will deform less with the lighter projectile, however. I can get a 2.5" group or better all day with my Saiga .223.

-Reloading easier/cheaper in any given caliber? (AFAIK 7.62 Saiga is .3105 bore)

AK's tend to destroy their brass, in both calibers. You can fix this by padding the receiver cover with door molding. 7.62x39 is .311 and can use some of the lighter Enfield bullets.

-Converted Saiga .223's mags less sturdy/reliable as common 7.62x39?

The polymer mags are plenty strong, and you can get some metal 5.56 mags.

-.223/5.56x45 the better SHTF caliber? (think availability)

.223 / 5.56 is better for SHTF because it's all non-corrosive. While it's more expensive to stock up on, it won't wreck your gun if you can't clean it soon.

-7.62x39 ammo choice less 'sensitive' (as the .223 MUST expand .087 to equal effectivness) choosing the wrong bullet for the wrong range could result in a mere .223 hole.

I've seen .223 hollowpoints blow right through a javelina without expanding. Use soft points. They're guaranteed to work. The larger round won't really make a difference there. It'll still go right through.

-Recoil, noticable or moot?

On the both .223 and 7.62x39, recoil is a moot point. I did notice that my stock Saiga had a surprisingly sharp recoil with the .223, but this went away after I installed the skeleton stock. I've since modified it to the extent that recoil is perfectly comfortable. You can get a recoil pad for the stock Saiga stock now, as well.

-Saiga chews up brass casings?

Yes, it does, but you can put door molding on the receiver cover to prevent this.

 

[chauncey]

I vote 308.

but back to your questions:

I had and sold a Saiga 7.62x39, primarily b/c it wasn't accurate enough for my tastes (6"+ groups at 100 yards) and the rifle had no novelty value to me (it had been my SHTF rifle until I had the $$ to move up to the 7.62x51 platform).

I have also had AK-style rifles in 5.56 and 5.45 (neither were Saigas). in my experience, 7.62x39 is the main accuracy problem with the AK platform. both my 5.45 and 5.56 rifles shot as accurately as an inexpensive AR (2-3" at 100 yards, open sights).

..on the other hand, I don't like 5.56 or 5.45 from an ammunition perspective...I don't subscribe to the small/fast bullet philosophy.

i'd guess my advice is this: this most important thing you can do is get a rifle and learn to shoot it accurately. if the rifle isn't accurate enough for your tastes, you probably won't get a lot of satisfaction out of shooting it, won't practice, and will violate weapon rule #2 - know how to use your weapon (#1 is have a weapon).

I would base your decision on which ammunition will satisfy your accuracy expectations. if you can be happy with 7.62x39, I'd pick it based upon my belief in its greater ability to end a fight. one advantage of 5.56 is that you can get frangible rounds, which I believe you should use in a HD scenario, and will allow you to shoot at indoor ranges.

308 will give you both: accuracy and the ability to stop a fight. no frangible rounds, though.

I won't comment on conversion questions, i don't have any experience with Saiga conversions.

NEITHER rifle is a BAD choice.

more info may be available on Saiga-12.com

 

[rbernie]

in my experience, 7.62x39 is the main accuracy problem with the AK platform.

The chambering is not inaccurate. In fact, the PPC chamberings use 7.62x39 as the parent case. There are inaccurate rifles, and inaccurate loads, but the basic chambering is capable of fine accuracy. My 'go-to' deer rifle has been a 7.62x39 16" AR15 for many years now, and it's given me MOA performance with very little effort.

I have both 223 and 7.62x39 Saiga rifles. The posts to date in this thread have done a superb job of articulating the pros/cons of each. But if I had to pick one, it'd be the 7.62x39. I say this for two reasons - availability of cheap ComBloc magazines (if you install a bullet guide), and the superior punch of 7.62x39 for HD/SD use. I hunt almost exclusively with the 7.62x39, and with appropriate bullets it's more than adequate for deer and hogs (under 500lbs) and such. I can think of few chamberings that are as balanced as the 7.62x39.

 

[M1key]

Saigas are the best deal in a semi-auto rifle on the market today. Own all calibers. None are converted. All are perfectly reliable and plenty accurate for my purposes. Will keep all of them. Planning on adding the 5.45 as soon as I can get my hands on one.

 

[chauncey]

The chambering is not inaccurate.

ok, but my 7.62x39 Saiga was.

no other comments on you post. otherwise, i agree.

I'm not sure that my response constitutes disagreeing, either, but I've never met a 7.62x39 semi-auto that could beat 4-5" at 100 yards, which I consider marginally acceptable (because I want to hit 6-8" at 300 yards).

imo your AR's and bolts (being discussed on another thread) are built to much higher tolerances than AK's. this allows for much better groups. I agree from "go" that the 7.62x39 is a better stopper than 5.56 or 5.45. I wouldn't hunt anything bigger than a groundhog with 5.56, I'd hunt deer with 7.62x39, any day.

 

[RedLion]

What rate of twist does the .223 saiga have?

 

[rbernie]

According to Russian American Arms (the importer), the 223 Saiga's have a 1:10" twist. I've never checked mine...

 

[Sebastian the Ibis]

but I've never met a 7.62x39 semi-auto that could beat 4-5" at 100 yards

I agree with you on that. I was getting 6-8 inch groups at 100 yds with my 16inch Saiga x39 on a bench today. That's about the best I'd expect with it.

I think the Saiga's are quite rough when clambering a round. On mine there is always a gash/scratch halfway down the case after it is ejected and I believe there are frequently nicks on the bullet itself. I took the powder out of a couple rounds I use for mag change drills and those cartridges are really beaten to hell. I think the .223 would have the same problem. So I'd get the x39 which is not designed to be as accurate, and is cheaper, and has better stopping power.

 

[RP88]

-.223 any less reliable in the AK's (natively 7.62x39) action?

if that is true, then the Russians must feel real bad about the AK-74 and the AK-1xx models that use .223/5.56 NATO

-.223, the more accurate version? (barrel thickness)

you'll have a better chance with .223 since it has a flatter trajectory and longer range, but the AK platform is the deciding factor of accuracy, and it generally decides to not be anything better than 4" moa

-Reloading easier/cheaper in any given caliber? (AFAIK 7.62 Saiga is .3105 bore)

.223 now has the price edge. The ammo panic makes cheap steel-case x39 cost as much as decent brass .223. Reloading also makes the .223 cheaper now as well.

-Converted Saiga .223's mags less sturdy/reliable as common 7.62x39?

the .223 Orlite and such are usually way more expensive and not as rock-solid as your steel ComBloc AK mag in x39

-.223/5.56x45 the better SHTF caliber? (think availability)

if SHTF, then either will work.

-7.62x39 ammo choice less 'sensitive' (as the .223 MUST expand .087 to equal effectivness) choosing the wrong bullet for the wrong range could result in a mere .223 hole.

both cause horrific damage. The .223 fragmentation can pretty much leave a hole the size of a lemon inside of you and a nasty, ragged exit wound, and the x39 round can tumble and pretty much excise a baseball-sized chunk of flesh on its way through you. Both can end up doing nothing more than poking a hole through you, so it does not matter; keep in mind that having a 1/4" or a 1/3" hole poked through you is going to suck a lot, so don't worry too much about 'reliability or sensitivity of wound ballistics'. If that is something to worry about, then grab a Saiga in .308 instead.

-Recoil, noticable or moot?

I have not shot a 5.56/.223 Saiga next to my x39 Saiga, but I did get to shoot an AR in x39 next to my AR in .223/5.56. I honestly did not see much of a difference. The 7.62x39 does have more recoil, but it was still a tap without any flip or movement to the AR.

In comparison, my brake-less converted Saiga has a nice flip to it from every shot.

The recoil comes down to the platform more than anything, from what I experienced. in the AR, the recoil goes into the light and small BCG, a big buffer with a long, 1.5" dia. spring behind it, with all of the recoil and movement in-line with the gun and you; whereas the AK has a very narrow recoil spring that is meant to handle a big block of metal and the gas piston with only like 4-5" of space for the recoil. Just something I noticed - maybe it's me.

-Saiga chews up brass casings?

maybe a dent, but nothing that would ruin the brass.

 

[hunter25]

Make sure you try different ammo. My .223 will only shoot 6 MOA with Wolf or Barnaul but drops to under 3 with cheap Federal.
My x39 SAR-1 will shoot under 3 with Wolf HP.

 

[M1key]

My Norinco MAK-90 would shoot 2-2.5 inch groups with Chinese mil-spec steel core ammo all day long. The same rifle with Russian would group 4-6 inches as you say.

I have not put my Saiga x39 16" on paper yet, but it will powder 4 inch clays with a solid hit at 100 yards every time with Wolf MC Hollow Point. I call it 4 inches or LESS MOA. I will try paper eventually, but for now that is all I ask out of the Saiga AK.

My Romanian SAR or Bulgarian Arsenal milled won't break them that consistently.

The Saiga 16" 223 will go 2-3 inches on paper with Silver or Brown Bear 62 hollow point.

BTW, I only shoot iron sights...

And yes, your mileage may vary.

 

[Girodin]

I own both (as well as 308, 12 and 410). I couldn't decide which caliber I wanted so I just bought both.

some points of interest.
-.223 any less reliable in the AK's (natively 7.62x39) action?

In my experience no. The x39, 223, and 308 have all been very and equally reliable

-.223, the more accurate version? (barrel thickness)

I haven't put glass on mine and personally I am limited by the crude open sights as much as anything. They are not bench guns and I typically shoot both from field positions and with the cheapest steel cased ammo I can find. Shooting with the stock sights from field positions with cheap ammo I am not sure there is a big difference. Both are accurate enough for my purposes. At my ranch we often shoot clays pigeons that are placed 100 yards from the porch. Resting on the railing I can hit them all day with either. 200 yard head shot on silhouettes are easy, after that my eyes and the sights are what holds me back.

-Reloading easier/cheaper in any given caliber? (AFAIK 7.62 Saiga is .3105 bore)

Sorry, IDK I have never reloaded for the 7.62x39 caliber.

-Converted Saiga .223's mags less sturdy/reliable as common 7.62x39?

Most of the mags people use for the .223 are less available and more expensive than the x39. In this category the the x39 is the clear winner. I actually am considering a AR magwell for my .223. It runs $165 or so IIRC. It makes sense if one already has a number of AR mags.


-.223/5.56x45 the better SHTF caliber? (think availability)

I have never bought into the idea that in SHTF there will be a big advantage to having a 5.56 rifle. I suppose it depends on the scenario one imagines, If it is battle field pickup then there is likely to be a nice 5.56 rifle laying around with all that ammo.

-7.62x39 ammo choice less 'sensitive' (as the .223 MUST expand .087 to equal effectivness) choosing the wrong bullet for the wrong range could result in a mere .223 hole.

The x39 has more punch but I would not feel under-armed with my .223, although if the chips were really down I might just as soon have the .308 to either or them.


-Recoil, noticable or moot?

Neither recoils much at all but I would say the .223 has less. More important might be the fact that the x39 has considerable more muzzle rise. Followup shots are faster with the .223 for me.

-Saiga chews up brass casings?

Yes they dent brass. This can be prevented though and is an easy issue to resolve. A bigger problem is that they throw the brass very far so finding it can be hard sometimes.

I use to always advise buying the x39 first. The mags and ammo were notably cheaper. Mags are still cheaper but ammo prices vary a lot right now depending on where one is buying.

I think the Saiga's are quite rough when clambering a round. On mine there is always a gash/scratch halfway down the case after it is ejected and I believe there are frequently nicks on the bullet itself. I took the powder out of a couple rounds I use for mag change drills and those cartridges are really beaten to hell.

Do you have bullet guide in it? When I install a new bullet guide it will scratch up the cartridges and be fairly rough at first if I don't bother to polish it. After either shooting or polishing it is not a problem and I have never noticed in on a stock gun (I have owned multiple exemplars of them BTW and shot even more).

Get both, but I'd get the x39 first. Master Molder mags are cheap ($11) and require a 45 second mod to work with the x39.

Modding every mag is kind of silly to me. I think filing down the mag catch one is much easier, to each his own though.

 

[Hammerhead6814]

I've come to the conclusion that Nailoth is dead , or miles away from a broadband connection. Whenever someone even whispers the word "Saiga" it's been a nearly universal experience to see Nail post. But this is the second Saiga thread in a week here that he has not posted in.

Where are you Nailoth?

 

[W L Johnson]

Quote:
-.223 any less reliable in the AK's (natively 7.62x39) action?

if that is true, then the Russians must feel real bad about the AK-74 and the AK-1xx models that use .223/5.56 NATO

AK-74s and up use 5.45x39 not .223/5.56

 

[BigNYMini]

Have done a cold bore 3" 3-shot benchrest with Wolf MC (Saiga 7.62x39 16") @ 100yd while sighting in a Kobra red-dot. Shocked me as I thought it wouldnt fare so well... the Kobra that is. Was always satisfied with Saiga accuracy for my needs and it will perform as long as you do your part.

 

[Darth AkSarBen]

My Saiga does well. I reloaded with Hodgon Benchrest powder and a Sierra FMJ BT 55 gr bullet.