Same/comparable/close powders under different labels

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From ADI.

http://www.adi-powders.com.au/handloaders/news.asp

12 March 2015

Dear Reloader,

Australian Munitions is making some changes to the way we manufacture our pistol and shotgun powders. These changes are necessary to ensure that we can sustainably manufacture these products for many years to come. We are making changes to both the manufacturing process and formulation of the powders, in order to sustain the manufacturability and throughput of the Australian Shotgun (AS) and Australian Pistol (AP) series powders.

The result of this change will be a new series of powders that will give our customers the performance excellence you have come to expect from ADI powders in both shotgun and pistol applications. This new series of powders will be called the APS series of powders, starting with APS35 that will replace AS30N, and APS45 that will replace both AS50N and AP50N. You will see these powders start appearing on the shelves after May this year, and we will be making reloading data available for them on our website and in the 2015 edition of our reloading manual, which will be released in May. Our development of APS-series powders to replace AP70N is well under way, but we will continue to supply AP70N throughout 2015 until the new powder is ready for release. AP100 manufacture is not affected by these changes, as it is manufactured differently.

While we are making these changes, it is unfortunately possible that you may experience some difficulty obtaining AS30N, AP50N and AS50N. This is due to the fact that it is getting more difficult for us to run the old process regularly, which is an important part of the reasoning behind making the changes. We ask that you please remain patient during this time, as the changes are essential to ensuring that we can continue making these powders in Australia well into the future.

Thank you for your ongoing support, and for using our World Class powders, proudly made in Australia. We appreciate your custom.

Be safe out there, and enjoy your reloading.

Ferdi Kluever

Sales Director, Australian Munitions


From Hodgdon.

Steve,

The information regarding ADI eventually phasing out the “Clays” line of powders in Australia is true, but, the “Clays” series is now being made at our manufacturing facility in Canada, so, when you post this response, be sure to quote it exactly like I have written same, which should eliminate further confusion. We simply moved the operation of manufacturing these three powders. The “Clays” series is being made to the exact same specification as in the past.

Ron Reiber
Product Manager
Hodgdon/IMR/Winchester Powder Co.
913-362-9455 Ext 113




Those with New "clays" can check the container, says Made in Canada.


.
 
ADI no longer manufactures the Clays line of powder for Hoddgon.
Hodgdon "clays line" is now manufactured in Canada.
Supposedly the same "formula", but a totally different manufacturer.
Is that still considered "Identical", I say no.

Correct about the new line of manufacturer, but do you think that Hodgdon will need to scrap their load data or put a disclaimer on their powder bottle based on where it's manufactured? Just like 700-X being originally made by DuPont but most recently made for Hodgdon by Alliant, the powder characteristics had better be close enough that no one will blow up their gun by using the same volumetric powder setting from the last jug (not wise, but loaders do it).

rsrocket1, unfortunately we can't get ADI powders here and must look for Hodgdon packaging. To be practical, I think we need to stick to powders that we can buy in the USA.
bds, I agree. I've never seen ADI powders here either so the point is moot. My guess is that you want to make a list of "rebadged" and "close" powders as candidates for us powder starved reloaders.
 
This subject is "Identical" or "close". Now that they are not made by the same company, can they really be called 'Identical".
 
This subject is "Identical" or "close". Now that they are not made by the same company, can they really be called 'Identical".


Umm he says they are the exact same specifications?? So is a Chevy engine different than a GMC engine?

The chart I posted came months after the written letter stating it moved production

Steve,

The information regarding ADI eventually phasing out the “Clays” line of powders in Australia is true, but, the “Clays” series is now being made at our manufacturing facility in Canada, so, when you post this response, be sure to quote it exactly like I have written same, which should eliminate further confusion. We simply moved the operation of manufacturing these three powders. The “Clays” series is being made to the exact same specification as in the past.

Ron Reiber
Product Manager
Hodgdon/IMR/Winchester Powder Co.
913-362-9455 Ext 113



Those with New "clays" can check the container, says Made in Canada.
 
Duvel, agree with AutoComp/CFE Pistol. I added Lovex powders to the "relative" powder listing here - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=10163949#post10163949

Updated list (will leave the ? mark until we get more verifications from other members):

Same exact powders (Same powder burn rate, charge by weight and volume):
- W231 and HP-38
- HS-6 and W540
- Ramshot Silhouette and WAP
- W269 and H110
- W760 and H414
- RL15 and Norma 203B

Comparable powders (Same powder burn rate, charge by weight but different volume):
- Red Dot and Promo
- Hodgdon Clays and Alliant Clay Dot?
- Hodgdon Clays and Titewad/Trail Boss?

Close powders (Close enough in burn rate but different powder charge by weight):
- No 2 and Lovex D032
- W231/HP-38 and Zip
- W231/HP-38 and Green Dot
- No 5 and Lovex D036
- Unique and Universal Clays
- Unique and 20/28?
- Unique and BE-86
- Power Pistol and BE-86
- CFE Pistol and AutoComp
- CFE Pistol and Silhouette?
- No 7 and Lovex D037.1
- No 9 and Lovex D037.2
- W296/H110 and 300MP?
- Ramshot TAC and H335?
- H4895 and I4895


I will say that if you look at D032 data and AA#2 data you will see that the data all overlaps, especially when you compare pressure. Lovex will list a higher max, for example, and the pressures will reflect that.
 
Here is a copy of an email I sent Hodgdon...
I know that you guys have been asked ten million times if Winchester 296 and Hodgdon H110 are the same powder ... what I need is somthing official .... a signed letter from the Big Guy that it is in fact the same powder... seems no one will except anything less. I sure hope you can help me out ....

So PLEASE send me something I can proved to the non believers .... be glad to pay for it !!!

Here is the email I just got back ....

Dear Mr. XXX

Thank you for your interest in Hodgdon. We can't sign any document that W296 and H110 are the same but I would recommend that you look at the data so you can determine if they are.

Warm regards
Chris Hodgdon
Hodgdon Powder Co
 
JimKirk said:
Dear Mr. XXX

Thank you for your interest in Hodgdon. We can't sign any document that W296 and H110 are the same but I would recommend that you look at the data so you can determine if they are.

Warm regards
Chris Hodgdon
Hodgdon Powder Co
Well, can't get any better than Mr. Hodgdon's mouth ... :D

JimKirk, this is what Hodgdon lists for .300 BLK 150 gr bullet so I guess we got our confirmation: ;)
Winchester 296 .308" 2.235" Start 15.0 gr (1,785 fps) 38,000 CUP - Max 16.2 gr (1,901 fps) 47,700 CUP

Hodgdon H110 .308" 2.235" Start 15.0 gr (1,785 fps) 38,000 CUP - Max 16.2 gr (1,901 fps) 47,700 CUP

Duvel said:
maybe 'cut & paste' each edited version to that location. That way it would be easy to find the latest version, and any potential errors could easily be seen by new viewers who might not read the whole thread.
I do not have moderator powers. I have asked Walkalong similar for other threads but THR rules only allow members to edit posts for a few days then the post is locked so no further correction can be made to freeze the content forever. So I keep having to copy/cut/paste. :D
Like post #17 lists "269" instead of "296".
Good eye. Post corrected. It was getting late and I was getting sleepy.

Maybe add W571 = HS-7
JimKirk/Duvel, I did not add HS-7 because it is discontinued but will add to the list for reference.

Ironicaintit said:
AA2495 and IMR4895 are virtually identical.
I am not familiar with 2495. Are they the same powder (characteristics/powder charge/volume) or close to it (different appearancebut same charge weight)? I can add to "close" powder until further verification.

RandyP said:
For any NEW reloaders out there - do note that some of the powders are similar BY WEIGHT. That means if you are using a disk or drum type powder dispenser and switch powders you may well need to change the settings or disk hole size to achieve the same WEIGHT as before. Only your scale can tell for sure.
Yes, very good point. Perfect example is Red Dot vs Promo.

steve4102 said:
Ramshot X-Terminator and AA 2230 Are Identical, conformed by Western Powders.

Accurate 2520 and Ramshot Wild Bore = Identical.
Thanks. Will add to the list.
 
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Thanks everyone! I am sure your efforts will help other members/guests cross reference powders to look for same/comparable/close powders or test some new ones.

Updated list (will leave the ? mark until we get more verifications from other members):

Same exact powders (Same powder burn rate, charge by weight and volume):
- W231 and HP-38
- HS-6 and W540
- HS-7 and W571
- Ramshot Silhouette and WAP
- W296 and H110
- Accurate 2230 and Ramshot X-Terminator
- Accurate 2520 and Ramshot Wild Boar
- W760 and H414
- RL15 and Norma 203B

Comparable powders (Same powder burn rate, charge by weight but different volume):
- Red Dot and Promo
- Hodgdon Clays and Alliant Clay Dot?
- Hodgdon Clays and Titewad/Trail Boss?

Close powders (Close enough in burn rate but different powder charge by weight):
- No 2 and Lovex D032
- W231/HP-38 and Zip
- W231/HP-38 and Green Dot
- No 5 and Lovex D036
- Unique and Universal Clays
- Unique and 20/28?
- Unique and BE-86
- Power Pistol and BE-86
- CFE Pistol and AutoComp
- CFE Pistol and Silhouette?
- No 7 and Lovex D037.1
- No 9 and Lovex D037.2
- W296/H110 and 300MP?
- Ramshot TAC and H335?
- H4895 and I4895
- IMR4895 and Accurate 2495?
 
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BDS .... I have asked for other confirmations form Hodgdon ... they are working on them and said they would get back soon ...

Yes ...I knew that W 571 was discontinued back sometime ago ... but I think HS 7 & was sold even after Winchester stopped selling ... but then Hodgdon quit HS 7 not much later ... I guess when the warehouse supply ran out ....

It was just a week or so ago ... believe it was on the THR ... someone was asking for data for HS 7 as they had come into some by estate sale ... heck just yesterday someone was talking about using DuPont 5066 ... I had forgot all about using some of that years ago ...
 
JimKirm, thanks. Goes to show viability of powders even after decades of storage.

I hope Alliant keeps making Herco because I really like it for 40S&W. Yes, Herco. It's the only powder that ejects clean spent brass for 40S&W, especially on the inside - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9362819#post9362819

I haven't done enough comparison tests in other calibers but for 40S&W, it's a very comparable powder to BE-86 and both produce very accurate loads (in fact, I actually use the same 6.1 gr powder charge for 180 gr bullet).

steve4102, thanks. Adding MRP and RL22 to the list.

Updated list (will leave the ? mark until we get more verifications from other members):

Same exact powders (Same powder burn rate, charge by weight and volume):
- W231 and HP-38
- HS-6 and W540
- HS-7 and W571
- Ramshot Silhouette and WAP
- W296 and H110
- Accurate 2230 and Ramshot X-Terminator
- Accurate 2520 and Ramshot Wild Boar
- W760 and H414
- RL15 and Norma 203B

Comparable powders (Same powder burn rate, charge by weight but different volume):
- Red Dot and Promo
- Hodgdon Clays and Alliant Clay Dot?
- Hodgdon Clays and Titewad/Trail Boss?

Close powders (Close enough in burn rate but different powder charge by weight):
- No 2 and Lovex D032
- W231/HP-38 and Zip
- W231/HP-38 and Green Dot
- No 5 and Lovex D036
- Unique and Universal Clays
- Unique and 20/28?
- Unique and BE-86
- Power Pistol and BE-86
- BE-86 and Herco (for 40S&W)
- CFE Pistol and AutoComp
- CFE Pistol and Silhouette?
- No 7 and Lovex D037.1
- No 9 and Lovex D037.2
- W296/H110 and 300MP?
- Ramshot TAC and H335?
- H4895 and I4895
- IMR4895 and Accurate 2495?
- MRP and RL22?
 
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I picked up three lbs of HS-7 a couple of weeks ago. t0293 & t0494 (Feb of 93', and April of 94'), they look, smell, and fire just fine :)
 
I guess I'll be the only guy to say that I think that this thread useless and might even be dangerous.

The only powders that I would trust to be "exactly" the same would be powders that were made by the same manufacturer and unless I see a current list of equivalent powders from the various manufacturers these posts are simply guesses. And as has already been posted, the lists that are available might be out of date.

Most people simply copy and paste without verifying the accuracy of the information, that's not a safe way to develop an opinion about the similarity of powders. Personally, I've never had an unsafe powder charge because I always follow the recommendations from the reloading manuals or I use QuickLoad to develop my powder charges.
 
There should be no assumptions in reloading, and those not intelligent enough to verify will either have something go wrong, or they won't.

I would say the same about those who rely solely on QL.




Most people simply copy and paste without verifying the accuracy of the information, that's not a safe way to develop an opinion about the similarity of powders. Personally, I've never had an unsafe powder charge because I always follow the recommendations from the reloading manuals or I use QuickLoad to develop my powder charges.
 
I guess I'll be the only guy to say that I think that this thread useless and might even be dangerous.



The only powders that I would trust to be "exactly" the same would be powders that were made by the same manufacturer and unless I see a current list of equivalent powders from the various manufacturers these posts are simply guesses. And as has already been posted, the lists that are available might be out of date.



Most people simply copy and paste without verifying the accuracy of the information, that's not a safe way to develop an opinion about the similarity of powders. Personally, I've never had an unsafe powder charge because I always follow the recommendations from the reloading manuals or I use QuickLoad to develop my powder charges.


I consider using quickload dangerous, so what's your point?
 
Same "specifications" probably means that Canadian Clays is the same "burn rate" and bulk density as Australian Clays.
Did IMR put in new equipment and get raw materials from Australia? I doubt it.

Mr Hodgdon's reference to "our plant in Canada" is advertising puffery. Unless they have come up with a lot of money very recently, that powder mill is owned by General Dynamics. As is the St Marks Ball powder plant.
 
Here are some pictures to compare Autocomp, CFE Pistol, and Silhouette. AC and C.P. sure look alike. Not so much with Silhouette. But I still believe the load data is compelling. :)

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Mr Hodgdon's reference to "our plant in Canada" is advertising puffery. Unless they have come up with a lot of money very recently, that powder mill is owned by General Dynamics. As is the St Marks Ball powder plant.

By contract, and for it's duration, Hodgdon could be speaking the truth. And it would only make sense for a contract to be in place. It isn't an indefinite ownership, but for the life of the contract. But that would be a different than this thread. :)
 
Same "specifications" probably means that Canadian Clays is the same "burn rate" and bulk density as Australian Clays.
Did IMR put in new equipment and get raw materials from Australia? I doubt it.

There was an interview Chris Hodgdon posted back in '14, when powders were still scarce. One subject came up about the Clays, and how a fire at ADI's plant, had brought their ball powders to a stand still. Chris Hodgdon made a statement that with ADI rebuilding the structure and equipment, that ADI was having to relearn how to may the Clays again. He didn't elaborate whether that had to do with rebuilding the exact equipment or the process it takes to duplicate the old powder.
 
Clays is not a Ball powder. If ADI makes any Ball powder, it does not show up in their own literature.
Relearn how to make Clays? They must have figured it out. Then decided to quit making the powder sold here as Clays. Same excuse as for Win 231 deemphasized if not discontinued, environmental burden.
 
Jim, he could have said flake powder. It's been a while since I watched the video. Anywho, just thought I'd throw that info out there. One can take from it what they want. :)
 
The powders that are EXACT can be used interchangeably. Those that are NOT should be treated as a different powder. You can look at any burn rate table and pick 5 each side and be close but the charges will not be the same if not the same powder. As said earlier the burn rate may be the same but the way the powder peaks may be totally different. This is why one powder is preferred over the other.

I would recommend removing all data that is not identical powders for this reason.
 
Ramshot Silhouette and WAP are NOT identical. Western Powders' own burn rate chart, v 3.4, place them on different lines, with WAP being slightly slower.

It would seem to me that the best value of this thread is to specifically and correctly list only KNOWN IDENTICAL powders, and to refer to Western's side-by-side burn rate charge to identify SIMILAR powders, making it clear that powders on the same line in Western's chart can only be considered SIMILAR in burn speed. Being on the same line does NOT mean that they are identical or interchangeable, but two powders on different lines certainly CANNOT be identical.

Western's chart seems to be much better than all other burn rate comparisons I have seen, since it is not simply a lumped list of fastest to slowest, but a COMPARISON list grouped by brand (just wish they'd update it with some of the newer powders like BE-86).
 
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