Same/comparable/close powders under different labels

[LiveLife]

Fair enough to those who raised counterpoints about exactness or closeness of powders.

What I had hoped for this thread is to help reloaders identify same exact powders to purchase when the preferred powder was not available (like W231) but another exact powder was (like HP-38) and also to identify other powders that were comparable/close enough in burn rate and characteristics to be considered for the same caliber/bullet weight application.

So I will add a disclosure statement on top of the listing and merge the three categories into two: same/exact powder vs comparable/close enough powders. Let me know if I need to further modify the listing.

Updated list of same/exact vs comparable/close powders (will leave the ? mark until we get more verification from other members):

Disclosure: While efforts were made by THR members based on available information obtained by the posting date, consider the accuracy posted with a grain of salt and please always reference published load data when developing your loads. When powders are recommended for calibers that lack current published load data, use them at your own risk.

Same exact powders (Same published load data, powder burn rate, charge weight and volume):

- W231 and HP-38
- HS-6 and W540
- HS-7 and W571
- W296 and H110
- RL15 and Norma 203B
- Accurate 2230 and Ramshot X-Terminator
- Accurate 2520 and Ramshot Wild Boar
- W760 and H414


Comparable/close powders (Different load data, similar burn rate for reference BUT MUST USE published charge weight):

- Red Dot and Promo (Alliant recommends using Red Dot load data by weight and not by volume)
- Hodgdon Clays and Alliant Clay Dot
- Hodgdon Clays and Titewad/Trail Boss
- No 2 and Lovex D032
- W231/HP-38 and Ramshot Zip
- W231/HP-38 and Alliant Green Dot
- Ramshot Silhouette and WAP
- No 5 and Lovex D036
- Unique and Universal Clays
- Unique and 20/28
- Unique and BE-86
- Power Pistol and BE-86
- BE-86 and Herco (for 40S&W)
- CFE Pistol and AutoComp
- CFE Pistol and Silhouette?
- No 7 and Lovex D037.1
- No 9 and Lovex D037.2
- W296/H110 and 300MP
- Ramshot TAC and H335
- Hodgdon 4895 and IMR 4895
- IMR4895 and Accurate 2495?
- MRP and RL22?

 

[Rule3]

I did not read all the posts.

Did anyone link to ADI Powders "Equivalence" chart"?? They are not always the SAME but close.


So if HP 38 does go away then look for AA2


http://www.adi-powders.com.au/handloaders/equivalents.asp

 

[LiveLife]

Rule3, I was hoping to do the same exact powder listing based on actual verification by powder manufacturers (like W231/HP-38) and comparable/close powder listing based on actual member experience and load testing.

I can definitely appreciate the concern raised by some for posting same/comparable powders with the possibility that some new reloaders may try to substitute comparable powders using the same powder charge without verifying published load data, and that's why I decided to add the disclaimer and narrow the categories down to two.

As to No. 2 and W231/HP-38, below is "relative" burn rate grouping of powders I have done based on powder manufacturers' claim of comparability and from various burn rate charts. Based on what other members have posted on different threads, I think No. 2 maybe faster burning than W231/HP-38 and No. 5 slower burning to be more "comparable" to W231/HP-38 - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=10163949#post10163949

I am not familiar with No. 2/No. 5 so perhaps others can chime in which is closer to W231/HP-38.

Faster burning pistol powders:

E3 - Competition - Nitro 100 - N310 - R1 - Ba10 - S011 - D013

No. 2 - Bullseye - Clays - WST - Red Dot/Promo - 700X - TiteGroup - Solo 1000 - Am. Select - International - Trail Boss - PB - N320 - AS - Ba9 1/2 - S015 - D032

No. 5 - W231/HP-38 - Zip - Green Dot - SR7625 - N32C - A1 - S020 - D036

Slower burning pistol powders:

Unique - Universal - BE-86 - Power Pistol - 20/28 - WSF - N330 - Ba9

HS6 - AutoComp - CFE Pistol - Silhouette - Long Shot - Herco - 800X - True Blue - N340 - 3N37 - A0

No. 7 - SR4756 - Blue Dot - N350 - SP2 - Ba7 1/2 - D037.1

No. 9 - Enforcer - W296/H110 - 2400 - Steel - SR4759 - H4227 - Lil'Gun - 3N38 - R123 - SP3 - Ba6 1/2 - D037.2

Updated list of same/exact vs comparable/close powders (will leave the ? mark until we get more verification from other members):

Disclosure: While efforts were made by THR members based on available information obtained by the posting date, consider the accuracy posted with a grain of salt and please always reference published load data when developing your loads. When powders are recommended for calibers that lack current published load data, use them at your own risk.

Same exact powders (Same published load data, powder burn rate, charge weight and volume):

- W231 and HP-38
- HS-6 and W540
- HS-7 and W571
- W296 and H110
- RL15 and Norma 203B
- Accurate 2230 and Ramshot X-Terminator
- Accurate 2520 and Ramshot Wild Boar
- W760 and H414


Comparable/close powders (Different load data, similar burn rate for reference BUT MUST USE published charge weight):

- Red Dot and Promo (Alliant recommends using Red Dot load data by weight and not by volume)
- Hodgdon Clays and Alliant Clay Dot?
- Hodgdon Clays and Titewad?
- Hodgdon Clays and Trail Boss?
- No. 2 and Lovex D032
- W231/HP-38 and Ramshot Zip
- W231/HP-38 and Alliant Green Dot
- W231/HP-38 and No. 5?
- No. 5 and Lovex D036
- Ramshot Silhouette and WAP
- Unique and Universal Clays
- Unique and 20/28
- Unique and BE-86
- Power Pistol and BE-86
- BE-86 and Herco (for 40S&W based on 2004 Alliant load data. No current load data from Alliant for Herco and 40S&W)
- CFE Pistol and AutoComp
- CFE Pistol and Silhouette?
- No. 7 and Lovex D037.1
- No. 9 and Lovex D037.2
- W296/H110 and 300MP
- Ramshot TAC and H335
- Hodgdon 4895 and IMR 4895
- IMR4895 and Accurate 2495?
- MRP and RL22?

 

[ljnowell]

BDS, my experience would definitely show that AA#2 is faster burning than W231. I've loaded both in 38 special and 45 acp.

 

[LiveLife]

Thanks. That's what I thought.

So would No. 5 be more comparable to W231/HP-38?

 

[LiveLife]

I am also not familiar with Clay Dot and Titewad.

I think Clays and Trailboss looks comparable but not sure on Clays with Clay Dot/Titewad.

Anyone load pistol loads with Clay Dot/Titewad/Trail Boss care to comment?

While I referenced Accurate Powder Burn Rate chart, one thing that I can't understand is why they placed W231/HP-38 with Bullseye to indicate faster burn rate than Red Dot/Promo/N320? I think a better place would be near N320 and slightly faster than Green Dot.

http://www.accuratepowder.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/burn_rates.pdf

 

[Jim Watson]

AA#5 is slower than 231, about half a grain in typical .38, .45, and 9mm.
It is even slower than Unique, although sometimes called "ball unique."

 

[LiveLife]

Great. So moving No. 5/D036 down to Unique group (Manufacturer claimed D036 is at No. 5 burn rate).

Also updated with "same/exact" powders verified by Hodgdon.

Faster burning pistol powders by "relative" burn rate:

E3 - Competition - Nitro 100 - N310 - R1 - Ba10 - S011 - D013

No. 2 - Bullseye - Clays - WST - Red Dot/Promo - 700X - TiteGroup - Solo 1000 - Am. Select - International - Trail Boss - PB - N320 - AS - Ba9 1/2 - S015 - D032

W231/HP-38 - Zip - Green Dot - SR7625 - N32C - A1 - S020

Slower burning pistol powders by "relative" burn rate:

No. 5 - Unique - Universal - BE-86 - Power Pistol - 20/28 - WSF - N330 - Ba9 - D036

HS6/W540 - AutoComp - CFE Pistol - Silhouette - Long Shot - Herco - 800X - True Blue - N340 - 3N37 - A0

No. 7 - SR4756 - Blue Dot - N350 - SP2 - Ba7 1/2 - D037.1

No. 9 - Enforcer - W296/H110 - 2400 - Steel - SR4759 - H4227 - Lil'Gun - 3N38 - R123 - SP3 - Ba6 1/2 - D037.2

Updated list of same/exact vs comparable/close powders (will leave the ? mark until we get more verification from other members):

Disclosure: While efforts were made by THR members based on available information obtained by the posting date, consider the accuracy posted with a grain of salt and please always reference published load data when developing your loads. When powders are recommended for calibers that lack current published load data, use them at your own risk.

Same exact powders (Same published load data, powder burn rate, charge weight and volume):

- W231 and HP-38
- HS-6 and W540
- HS-7 and W571
- W296 and H110
- RL15 and Norma 203B
- Accurate 2230 and Ramshot X-Terminator
- Accurate 2520 and Ramshot Wild Boar
- W760 and H414


Comparable/close powders (Different load data, similar burn rate for reference BUT MUST USE published charge weight):

- Red Dot and Promo (Alliant recommends using Red Dot load data by weight and not by volume)
- Hodgdon Clays and Alliant Clay Dot?
- Hodgdon Clays and Titewad?
- Hodgdon Clays and Trail Boss?
- No. 2 and Lovex D032
- W231/HP-38 and Ramshot Zip
- W231/HP-38 and Alliant Green Dot
- No. 5 and Lovex D036
- Ramshot Silhouette and WAP
- Unique and Universal Clays
- Unique and 20/28
- Unique and BE-86
- Power Pistol and BE-86
- BE-86 and Herco (for 40S&W based on 2004 Alliant load data. No current load data from Alliant for Herco and 40S&W)
- CFE Pistol and AutoComp
- CFE Pistol and Silhouette?
- No. 7 and Lovex D037.1
- No. 9 and Lovex D037.2
- W296/H110 and 300MP
- Ramshot TAC and H335
- Hodgdon 4895 and IMR 4895
- IMR4895 and Accurate 2495?
- MRP and RL22?

 

[Jim Watson]

Clay Dot is a direct replacement grain for grain for Clays in shotshells. (Check your bushing drop, though.) Alliant recommends you not load pistol ammo with it. Although I know one guy who does.

 

[LiveLife]

Jim, thank you for the clarification. So per Alliant's recommendation, I will note for shotgun loads only.

Also correcting spelling for Wild Boar.


Updated list of same/exact vs comparable/close powders (will leave the ? mark until we get more verification from other members):

Disclosure: While efforts were made by THR members based on available information obtained by the posting date, consider the accuracy posted with a grain of salt and please always reference published load data when developing your loads. When powders are recommended for calibers that lack current published load data, use them at your own risk.

Same exact powders (Same published load data, powder burn rate, charge weight and volume):

- W231 and HP-38
- HS-6 and W540
- HS-7 and W571
- W296 and H110
- RL15 and Norma 203B
- Accurate 2230 and Ramshot X-Terminator
- Accurate 2520 and Ramshot Wild Boar
- W760 and H414


Comparable/close powders (Different load data, similar burn rate for reference BUT MUST USE published charge weight):

- Red Dot and Promo (Alliant recommends using Red Dot load data by weight and not by volume)
- Hodgdon Clays and Alliant Clay Dot (for shotgun loads, not pistol loads)
- Hodgdon Clays and Titewad?
- Hodgdon Clays and Trail Boss?
- No. 2 and Lovex D032
- W231/HP-38 and Ramshot Zip
- W231/HP-38 and Alliant Green Dot
- No. 5 and Lovex D036
- Ramshot Silhouette and WAP
- Unique and Universal Clays
- Unique and 20/28
- Unique and BE-86
- Power Pistol and BE-86
- BE-86 and Herco (for 40S&W based on 2004 Alliant load data. No current load data from Alliant for Herco and 40S&W)
- CFE Pistol and AutoComp
- CFE Pistol and Silhouette?
- No. 7 and Lovex D037.1
- No. 9 and Lovex D037.2
- W296/H110 and 300MP
- Ramshot TAC and H335
- Hodgdon 4895 and IMR 4895
- IMR4895 and Accurate 2495?
- MRP and RL22?

 

[Rule3]

Rule3, I was hoping to do the same exact powder listing based on actual verification by powder manufacturers (like W231/HP-38) and comparable/close powder listing based on actual member experience and load testing.

I can definitely appreciate the concern raised by some for posting same/comparable powders with the possibility that some new reloaders may try to substitute comparable powders using the same powder charge without verifying published load data, and that's why I decided to add the disclaimer and narrow the categories down to two.

As to No. 2 and W231/HP-38, below is "relative" burn rate grouping of powders I have done based on powder manufacturers' claim of comparability and from various burn rate charts. Based on what other members have posted on different threads, I think No. 2 maybe faster burning than W231/HP-38 and No. 5 slower burning to be more "comparable" to W231/HP-38 - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=10163949#post10163949

I am not familiar with No. 2/No. 5 so perhaps others can chime in which is closer to W231/HP-38.

Updated list of same/exact vs comparable/close powders (will leave the ? mark until we get more verification from other members):

Disclosure: While efforts were made by THR members based on available information obtained by the posting date, consider the accuracy posted with a grain of salt and please always reference published load data when developing your loads. When powders are recommended for calibers that lack current published load data, use them at your own risk.

[

I wrote to ADI a maybe a year ago to question the chart, they will only give info that is on the chart. They state on the chart.


NOTE: These tables are only approximate, showing equivalent values within about 5%.

Actual burning rates can vary depending on the calibre, weapon, loading components and practices, as well as from powder lot to powder lot. As a consequence it must be understood that Australian Munitions cannot accept any responsibility for the use of this information in any way.

SO FOLKS DO NOT CONFUSED

Again the chart is not a DIRECT SUBSTITUTE

 

[LiveLife]

You raise a good point.

The various powder burn rate charts I have looked at are "relative" burn rates for reference and not for precise powder substitutions. In fact, different burn rate charts published by different powder manufacturers do not agree with each other and as I posted previous, there are some wide differences.

We should use them as guides to group "relative" burn rate powders together for our reloading applications but must follow published load data for our load development.

The "relative" burn rate listing I did was to combine the various charts together with powder manufacturers' claims along with my experience over the years so the groupings are more useable and I do believe with input from other members, we can refine the listing further.

 

[Rule3]

Yes, so it is a definition of relative. Relative to all that are within the group,

They have to number them somehow and if it falls at say number 25 or #28 out of 150 powders that is pretty close. The ADI powder company states within a 5% range. So whatever that really means is up to the actually testing. Other than a few powders like the HP38/W231 it does not mean a direct replacement. Even switching from lot to lot may have a slight variation. This compares to the ADI chart

I like Hodgdons Burn Rate chart, color coded for the reading impaired.

https://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/Burn Rates - 2015-2016.pdf

 

[SARuger]

Maybe I over looked it but I don't see a substitute for Varget?

 

[Jim Watson]

I have used IMR 4064, IMR 4895, and Reloder 15 in the same application as Varget.
Not a grain for grain substitution, just the same cartridge, bullet, and attainable velocity.

 

[SARuger]

That's good news! I have 4# of Reloader 15. I will check the data to be sure as always.

 

[AnselHazen]

OK I have run across many posts regarding Silhouette as being a direct substitute for Winchester Action Pistol.....

But it's in the comparable listing here.

 

[Rule3]

Maybe I over looked it but I don't see a substitute for Varget?

ADI (Australia) makes Varget it is their AR2208 they list the closest EQUIVALENT
NOT SUBSTITUTE AS IMR4064

http://www.adi-powders.com.au/handloaders/equivalents.asp

This shows that the burn rate charts are only RELATIVE.

 

[macgrumpy]

If you think that those of us who use QuickLoad don't verify the load's performance in any other way then you are ignorant of how hand loading works. But then that would explain why you think making these lists is useful.

 

[kcofohio]

bds, looking at the data from Western Powders for 357 & 10mm.

AA 4100 and Ramshot Enforcer look very comparable if not exact.

 

[7mmb]

AA 4100 and Enforcer are the exact same powder. Rob Behr at Ramshot confirmed this for me. Silhouette is WAP, at least according to Handloader Magazine. Load data is fully interchangeable. That's exact enough for me. And Hodgdon now shows the same data for H4227 and IMR4227 in their 357 Magnum rifle data just like they do for H110/296, HP38/231 and H414/760. H4427 and IMR4227 used to be comparable/close but after Hodgdon bought IMR they are now exact.

 

[horsemen61]

Ttrl

 

[Jim Watson]

H4427 and IMR4227 used to be comparable/close but after Hodgdon bought IMR they are now exact.

Hodgdon did not buy IMR. They acquired IMR Powders of New York, the distributor. The factory in Canada remains under General Dynamics.
What they did was to get H4227 from ADI (now Thales) in Australia and IMR4227 from IMR in Canada.
Then they rolled it all into one source. Then they quit listing H4227. I think what is now labeled IMR4227 may be from Australia, but I don't have a fresh can to look at.

Hodgdon has maneuvered and manipulated powder sources and labels that you need a Secret Decoder Ring to figure out what you have.

 

[styles]

There are two lovex d036 powders and only one is the aa#5. Auto pistol and ultimate pistol are d036.03 and d036.07. You can't just call it d036

 

[Walkalong]

Add WST and Competition to the comparable powders list. They are very close.

Unique and Universal Clays

I disagree that these are comparable, as Universal is faster and gets spiky at the top where Unique is more forgiving. Similar.