SAO 9mms, or the lack thereof...

[balance 740]

This pistol popped into my head when I read the first post for some reason. No longer in production, but you may find one if you look hard enough:

http://forum.pafoa.org/pistols-41/8347-fn-fnp9-sao-review.html

This isn't rocket science. Jesus. Like I said, the technology already exists. I just want to know why it is so scarce in a market so big and supposedly diverse.

I wish there were more options in this category as well.

 

[jbauch357]

The 75 compact is da/SA, not SA only.

yes, but run with a round in the chamber, hammer back, and safety on and you basically have a single action only pistol - what is it missing is the light rail though...

here is another option, get an HK USP Compact and have it converted to SAO by this guy http://grayguns.com/

 

[railroader]

No rail but here is my 75compact sao. I had it that way for awhile.

 

[C0untZer0]

I used the forward assist many times on my M16s because the things malfunctioned so many times.

Never once, not one single time, did using the forward assist get the weapon functioning again. I always had to clear the round and feed a new one.

 

[mdauben]

Now, she really likes my BHP, but when she has to go through the motions necessary to get the safety off, a round chambered, the hammer cocked or some combination of the three in a high stress situation, she feels she needs as simply a gun as possible.

You are right, that is too complicated a process to put a gun into action in an emergency situation.

In my opinion, any "ready" SAO gun (that is, one being used for SD or HD) needs to be carried/stored in "Condition One" or "Cocked and Locked" with a full mag, one in the chamber, the hammer cocked and the safety on. That's the way they were designed to be carried. If you are not comfortable with having the gun in that condition, you really should look for a different type of gun.

I'm more into Glocks and Revolvers as SD/HD firearms, so I don't need to worry about safeties, but if I am carrying or using one as a HD gun, it will be fully loaded with one in the chamber. Storing/carrying a SD/HD gun with an empty chamber, requiring you to rack the slide before its ready, can lose you precious seconds that you just might not have in an emergency.

Not everyone may agree, but those are my thoughts.

 

[Skribs]

I'm more into Glocks and Revolvers as SD/HD firearms, so I don't need to worry about safeties, but if I am carrying or using one as a HD gun, it will be fully loaded with one in the chamber. Storing/carrying a SD/HD gun with an empty chamber, requiring you to rack the slide before its ready, can lose you precious seconds that you just might not have in an emergency.

Exactly why I only go for DAO/SFA type. And I agree, C1 for SAO is the best bet.

 

[KnekBeard]

After looking at every compact 9mm available here; my gf decided on a CZ pcr. I liked it so much i had to get one, but i wanted that gun with a safety.

CZ Custom had several P02's for sale some time ago, and i bought one. They were called Omega Compacts and have the same swappable decocker/safety as the P07. I'm not sure how many the have sold, but maybe they would be able to find some more.

It is a great shooter.

 

[Walking Dead]

I'm guessing you can't drive a 5 speed either?

 

[Walt Sherrill]

...Storing/carrying a SD/HD gun with an empty chamber, requiring you to rack the slide before its ready, can lose you precious seconds that you just might not have in an emergency.

The "empty chamber carry" method also presupposes that you'll have BOTH HANDS FREE to chamber that round. That may not always be the case -- particularly if you're with someone and you're trying to get them out of harm's way.

 

[skt239]

Single action guns are great, except for the manual safety. DA/SA is simple, draw, fire, decock.

 

[Skribs]

Single action guns are great, except for the manual safety. DA/SA is simple, draw, fire, decock.

That's why I prefer SFA. No need to decock (unless you get something weird like the FN variant), medium, consistent trigger pull, and no manual safety to forget about.

 

[MTMilitiaman]

Since when did taking the safety off become such a big deal? For Pete's sake, it's a simple gross motor skill in most cases far less complicated than trying to text and drive at the same time. Our technology driven culture can apparently figure anything out as long as you give it an LCD screen.

I run Glocks primarily now, but I never really considered it not having a safety to be much of an advantage. A safety device on a firearm isn't a complicated issue for me. Some guns have them, some do not. I have, however, come to appreciate a decent, consistent trigger, and good sights. The Glock comes up decent but not exceptional in both. If I am switching to something else, I would like it to improve on the Glock's trigger. This is why I was considering single action guns. Flicking off a safety isn't a big deal for me. I do it every time I shoot a rifle, I don't know why it would be so much harder to remember to do with a handgun.

 

[sixgunner455]

I have a CZ75B SA. It is fantastic. I carry it concealed or openly on a regular basis, and I'm nowhere near as big as you are.

But it's bigger than you said you wanted. So I looked at the CZ website, which you said you'd done, and discovered a gun that I didn't know existed: the P-07 Duty. You said you'd looked at it, but I don't get where it doesn't meet your criteria:

It has a rail. The barrel length is 3.8" - they call it a compact, and it is a nice weight. You can put whatever sights you want on it. It can be carried cocked and locked - you never have to put in the decocker if you don't want to. The safety is ambidextrous. It comes in 9mm, and you'll actually gain a round over a standard G19 magazine.

What doesn't it have that you wanted?

 

[Skribs]

Since when did taking the safety off become such a big deal? For Pete's sake, it's a simple gross motor skill in most cases far less complicated than trying to text and drive at the same time. Our technology driven culture can apparently figure anything out as long as you give it an LCD screen.

Well, texting and driving has actually become a huge problem. It has resulted in numerous crashed because people aren't watching the road. In fact, a 17-year-old was recently charged with (I believe it was) negligent homicide after a crash caused by him texting resulting in a death.

It's not so much about the motor skill. It's about remembering if the safety is on or not. If you've trained with it, fine. If not, then you may have it condition 0 and have a ND, or draw in condition 1 and not be able to pull the trigger.
When I was looking at purchasing my first firearm, I looked at the safety as something I needed to train on. I prefered the simpler MOA of the SFA pistol.

 

[Sam Cade]

Since when did taking the safety off become such a big deal? For Pete's sake, it's a simple gross motor skill in most cases far less complicated than trying to text and drive at the same time.

No it isn't.
Moving one of your digits in a precise manner is actually the definition of a fine motor skill.

 

[Myles]

Referring to the odd hate of DA/SA: It's been around since the Colt M1877 revolver, the "Lightning", the "Thunderer", and the "Rainmaker." No safety or decocker, though. Designed by William Mason at Colt's Manufacturing Company.

 

[Skribs]

DA/SA is different in a revolver than in an autoloader, Myles.

 

[Girodin]

The "empty chamber carry" method also presupposes that you'll have BOTH HANDS FREE to chamber that round. That may not always be the case -- particularly if you're with someone and you're trying to get them out of harm's way.

Not really. I think carrying with an empty chamber is stupid. That said, if you cannot camber a round with only one hand you don't know how to properly run your gun. That is handgun 101 stuff.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

I think carrying with an empty chamber is stupid. That said, if you cannot camber a round with only one hand you don't know how to properly run your gun. That is handgun 101 stuff.

It depends on the gun. It would be pretty easy with some full-size Glocks, but the smaller the gun, the more stout the recoil spring, the harder it becomes to do it -- and the more time it takes. And in a self-defense situation, quick is critical. (Another reason for NOT carrying with an empty chamber.)

I've got a BHP with an 18 lb. recoil spring that you won't chamber easily one-handed. It would be difficult with my PF-9, too. I don't agree that it's Handgun 101. I do agree that carrying with an empty chamber is not a good idea.

 

[Girodin]

A heavier recoil spring doesn't make it notably harder. The main thing that makes it an issue is when you don't have a rear sight that is conducive to snagging, say a gun like an LCP. If that is the case one can use the ejection part. A second potential difficulty is you don't have something to snag the sights or ejection port on. However, that rarely will be the case. One can typically use an decent holster to catch the sights or port. Other things that work are mag pouches, stiff belts, or any hard edge. One can easily use their shoe (although I prefer using my holster). I just pulled my LCP (which is pretty small) out of my pocket and easily caught the ejection port on the heal of my shoe. Some folks even run a strip of grip tape across the top of the slide to better facilitate one handed manipulations. I've never not been able to manipulate a gun one handed. If I couldn't I sure as heck would not being carrying it for defensive use.

I'm not sure why a hi power with a 18 lbs recoil spring should be difficult. I just walked down to my safe and got out 9 different handguns of various makes and models from sub compacts to full size guns (ruger, glock, steyr, CZ, Kahr, Colt, etc) and was able to rack every single one on both my belt (which isn't even a stiff gun belt) and my shoe. My K9 has a 20 lbs recoil spring and is smaller than a hi power and was no problem at all. None really took any appreciable more time than any other. Try it with your hi power. I'd be astonished if it couldn't be done.

and the more time it takes. And in a self-defense situation, quick is critical. (Another reason for NOT carrying with an empty chamber.)

A one handed manipulation of the slide is not something I want to have to do in a time is life situation. To be honest neither is a two handed manipulation, which is part of the reason I think it would be pure folly to carry empty chamber.

However, anyone who has basic defensive handgun skills will be able to manipulate the slide one handed unless he or she is belt-less, shoe-less, and away from any other stiff edges.

One handed manipulations (including ones more difficult than simply racking the slide) are the type of thing that is taught in any decent introductory defense handgun course, that's why I say it is handgun 101. Perhaps it would have been more correct to say defensive handgun 101.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

We do agree on the silliness of empty-chamber carry. So the following comments are almost peripheral; we're arguing about angels dancing on the point of a pin.

When our local IDPA club was very active, several years back, I did the stage design -- creating scenarios that challenged the shooter, while trying to keep it somewhat realistic AND SAFE. (We had an indoor range, so we could compete during the ugly Winter months, too.) We tried a number of different things, including one-handed and weak-handed starts, engaging targets with the weak hand, using unfamiliar weapons left on the floor, etc., But, we never tried starting from an empty chamber with either one hand or two.

Chambering a round using the sight and a belt loop or pocket is certainly possible with most guns, but if you're engaging an opponent, moving to cover, trying to get a companion (a child/grand-child, for example) into a protected position, trying to protect yourself from an attacking dog, or simply trying to cope with a rapidly changing and confusing situation, having to deal with the EXTRA COMPLICATION OF AN EMPTY CHAMBER seems both unnecessarily burdensome and time-consuming. Why practice a skill you can only use under the BEST of conditions?

If you find yourself in a situation where you have an empty chamber and the need to engage rapidly, and only one hand available to do it, I'd argue you've already ignored or overlooked the most important gun defense practice: situational awareness.

I would agree that one-handed chambering IS something to understand, but I question the need to do much more than prove to yourself that it can be done. And, of course, if I were to try it, it would only be with snap caps in the gun. Like you, I've yet to hear a convincing rationale for carrying a self-defense weapon with an empty chamber in the first place, and can't understand why anyone would train -- as a basic gun defense skill -- for that awkward practice. To me, becoming proficient with one-handed chambering seems a bit like trying to teach a pig to whistle: why bother? If I find myself in a self-defense situation with an empty chamber, it'll because I'm out of rounds and have used my spare magazine. As you note, it isn't a proper carry method.

(And, while I'll arguably never use this particular gun for carry or self defense, at least in it's current state, I have a SA SIG X-FIVE in .40, that I defy you to chamber with one hand, using belt-loop or pants pocket, or shoe... and, maybe bench vise. That gun, while absolutely factory stock, is a challenge to handle with two hands -- and once the slide is locked back, it almost takes a bumper jack to release the slide. I'm waiting to hear back from Gray Guns about what we might do to house-break it.)

 

[Girodin]

To me, becoming proficient with one-handed chambering seems a bit like trying to teach a pig to whistle: why bother?

Why practice a skill you can only use under the BEST of conditions?

It is more about one handed immediate action drills, one part of which is manipulating the slide rather than one handed chambering per se. An example is a "tap, rack, bang." One handed manipulations are not something I would say should be part of a shooters skill set so that he or she can carry with an empty chamber. Rather, it is a basic part of being proficient at immediate action drills.

One handed manipulations are not a skill for the BEST conditions, rather they are a skill one may need in the WORST conditions, i.e. not only have things gone so far south that you are in a gun fight, but your gun has malfunctioned. Worse still you are injured, or otherwise do not have a free hand (we could think of a host of hypothetical reasons why). Why practice a skill like that? Because it may be your one shot at getting your gun back up and into the fight and surviving when everything has gone wrong.

I also think you overstate the difficulty of manipulating a slide in the above described manner. The statement "if I were to try it" may explain why. Depending on how I am carrying a BUG, I can one do a one handed tap, rack bang and fire an aimed shot, faster than I can draw and fire the BUG. Simply racking slide eliminates a step and would be even faster (again no reason to needlessly add the complication). Honestly, with a half decent holster, in a reasonable position, and decent rear sight, it really is roughly as fast as then racking the gun with two hands. I have not gotten out a timer to make exact comparisons and do not have time to experiment now to do so.

In short, I think it is unwise to carry empty chamber, however, the you might not have two hands argument is far down the list of reasons why and of its self not particularly compelling in any additional way than the arguments against needing to rack the slide at all, even with two hands.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

One handed manipulations are not a skill for the BEST conditions, rather they are a skill one may need in the WORST conditions...

First, let me reiterate points already made: we both think empty-chamber carry isn't good, and we both agree that knowing how to chamber a weapon with one hand is something worth learning. Where we disagree, I think, is whether one-handed chambering is an IMPORTANT "basic handgun 101" skill. The use of "skill" in this context was my choice of words -- you used "stuff" -- and "Skill" implies more than just knowing how to do it. Maybe you don't consider it a required SKILL.

With regard to your comment, above... You quoted my words as written, but subtly changed the context so that the words seemed to mean something quite different. When I wrote in an earlier response, "were I to try it..." I wasn't suggesting that I hadn't tried it -- but simply that I would NOT do the drills with live ammo. I let it slide until your reply, above.

Using one hand to chamber a gun will be required in the worst of conditions and, I argue, will be successful when the conditions are just right and you've got the TIME to do the drill! That is, in effect, the BEST situation possible for a one-handed chambering action. In the worst situation, you won't have the time or the conditions needed for it to happen. And, more generally, the situation described is in the worst of conditions: having to use lethal force already implies the worst of conditions! But thing can and do go downhill in even the worst of conditions. If we're not talking about a real-life lethal force situation, this is a meaningless discussion.

As you say, one-handed chambering (or clearance drills) are not something you want to do in a time-critical situation. I agree. But that is typically the most common self-defense situation: a surprise confrontation. When you're attacked or threatened, you need to act quickly or to move rapidly. As I said, knowing how to chamber your weapon with one hand is a good thing, but making it something you practice a lot makes less sense to me. Perhaps you're not advocating a lot of practice or higher proficiency. Never having an empty chamber seems like a far more sensible gun defense practice.

A question for you: do you practice one-handed chamber loading with your weak hand? Do you practice reaching your holster with your off hand before starting that drill? When you combine a strong-side carry with an empty chamber and you're using only your weak hand, you've really got your hand(s) full, but not quickly. Would you also consider that expanded exercise "basic handgun 101 stuff," too?

An analogy: knowing how to start a fire with twigs, string and a small stick, indian-style, may be a good thing to know if you're lost in the wilderness, but going into the wild carrying waterproof fire-starting equipment (striker and plate, matches, lighter) makes a lot more sense than becoming highly proficient in indian-style fire starting. That doesn't mean you don't want to know how to do it. But being able to do it quickly?

I guess we'll just have to disagree on how critical one-handed chamber loading proficiency is for most shooters and whether it is - as you previously claimed - "basic handgun 101 stuff." Basic handgun 101 stuff SEEMS to suggest more than just trying it and knowing you can do it. (There's also the question of weak hand skills, not just shooting with the weak hand, but also filling an empty chamber and doing clearance drills. Just shooting with the offhand seems like a much more critical one-handed skill, and it's almost never discussed.)

 

[Skribs]

It's interesting that this has devolved into an empty-vs-loaded-chamber debate, because I was just having the same debate with my Dad. It seems that everyone he has talked with, except for me, carries unloaded chamber. One guy "only chambers a round in rough neighborhoods." I mentioned that 75% of the people here, based on polls I've seen, carry with one in the chamber, and my Dad said "yeah, but those are gun guys." Of course, I said "exactly - guys who have been carrying for decades with one in the chamber and haven't shot their leg off yet."

Kind of a rant, but anyway...I don't plan to need 1-handed slide manipulation. I'd rather keep a round loaded and have an ambi slide stop, so if I do empty it and slap in another magazine, I don't need to rack the slide. It's why I'm leaning heavily towards the M&P over the XDm, even though I'm a XDm fan.

 

[Girodin]

Yes, I fully agree empty chamber is pointless and unwise. My discussion of one handed manipulations and their usefulness is really more aimed at clearing malfunctions. I would anticipate that any reasonable person who dedicates enough time to properly training such things will likely gain an understanding of why an empty chamber is a misguided idea.

As I said, knowing how to chamber your weapon with one hand is a good thing, but making it something you practice a lot makes less sense to me. Perhaps you're not advocating a lot of practice or higher proficiency.

I think all one handed immediate action drills should be practiced enough that one has reasonable proficiency, which is of course could mean different things to different people. It is not the most vital skill set and not where I would spend the most significant amount of my training time. However, these aren't particularly difficult things that require huge amounts of time to stay reasonably proficient.

do you practice one-handed chamber loading with your weak hand?

Yes, one can no more guarantee that the hand he or she will have available will be the strong hand rather than the support hand. I personally do not find it greatly more challenging. It can be more of an issue if I am not wearing a mag pouch, but I typically wear a belt so it is not much of an issue.

Do you practice reaching your holster with your off hand before starting that drill?

I typically practice immediate action drills with a gun already out (as one typically doesn't identify a stoppage until the gun is up and out). I do of course regularly practice drawing my primary weapon, worn strong side, with my support hand. From there doing an immediate action drill is the same.

Would you also consider that expanded exercise "basic handgun 101 stuff," too?

I would consider both one handed manipulations with both the strong and support hand as well as support hand drawing from a strong side holster to fall under defensive handgun 101. These are the types of skills that are often taught at "introductory" or "basic" or "Level I" defensive hand gun courses.

Just shooting with the offhand seems like a much more critical one-handed skill, and it's almost never discussed.

I would agree it is a priority skill. After all, what good is getting the gun back up and running if you can't use it effectively? That said this skill is not mutually exclusive with the others. Like anything one needs to identify what are the most important skills and what skills he or she needs to work on the most and allocate training time efficiently. I'd wager most people who have carry permits do not train anyways, they go and shoot.

One handed manipulations are not something I personally practice with a great deal of regularity. I practiced them much more often when I first was learning them and developing the muscle memory. I might work on it once every couple months now as I feel that is enough to stay reasonably proficient. After all my primary carry gun has never had an non intentionally induced malfunction (meaning one's I've set up for training purposes).

As to the empty chamber stuff I stand by what I first said. It is is not a good idea. I advise against it. However, the argument that I might only have one hand adds little for me personally over the arguments against an empty chamber with two hands. I feel this way because it really doesn't take me much longer to draw and rack the slide with a single hand versus two hands (next time I get out to the range I want to use the time and get real figures). Of course I would imagine the sort of folks that opt carry empty chamber likely have not trained a lot with their weapons and likely have limited proficiency with such things. Ultimately, I cannot achieve the time that is my personal bench mark for drawing from concealed and firing an effective first shot with an empty chamber whether I used two hands or one to rack the slide.

Personally if fore some inexplicable reason I was heck bent on an empty chamber (or legally required like in some states for OC) I would carry a 7 shot revolver and leave 1-2 empty chambers and pull the trigger twice. I have tried that on a shot timer versus racking the slide and for me it is faster. Still slower than properly loaded gun which is what one is best served carrying.

In sum, an empty chamber is a bad idea for a carry gun. On an only tangentially related note one handed pistol manipulations, while not the most important defensive handgun skills, really aren't that hard to do. So how about those SAO 9mms?