Savage 10 .308, Hornady ELD-M 168 gr, shooting good, what's next?

[bikemutt]

I finally got around to handloading with Hornady 168 grain ELD-M for my Savage 10 .308 rifle today.

The rifle certainly likes the bullet; if any group exceeded 1" at 100 yards, it was all about the shooter.

Since this was my first trial with the bullet I referenced the Hornady 10th edition handbook which includes data for the ELD bullets. I elected to go with 39.4 grains of Varget with a stated velocity of 2400 fps. Brass was twice fired Hornady with CCI BR-2 large rifle primers. I could not load to recommended C.O.L. of 2.800" as that would put me well into the lands with this rifle, I backed off 5/1000 from the lands.

Chronograph results indicated an average velocity of 2445 fps with a maximum of 2464, minimum 2432 and a standard deviation of 14.0. When I spoke with a fellow there who's probably forgotten more about hand loading than I'll ever know, he commented my velocity is rather low, but it's probably OK for punching paper.

As a new handloader always seeking improvement, what is the next parameter to play with? I know my marksmanship skills are always in need of improvement, I'm wondering more about what approach to take with respect to handloading. Different primers, brass, brass prep, powders, powder charges, that sort of thing.

I hear guys talking about ladders; the only ladder I know about is the one I fell from 20 years ago, it hurt

 

[LoonWulf]

Well fall off a pressure ladder the wrong way and itll hurt too

Theory is basically the same as your roofing ladder. You pick a starting charge, then a charge weight step (like .5 grain increments...or smaller usually) and go up (or down in some cases) untill youve reached your decided max load or see pressure signs.

Along the way you check for accuracy potential by shooting groups. I like this method personally, i usually use 5 rounds per lvl.
http://optimalchargeweight.embarqspace.com/ocw-test-example/4529811475

At that point ill usually be good as uber accuracy usually isnt a requirement for what i want. If a load will not produce a consistent 1.5" or better at 100 ill switch powder and try again. If still not luck i try a different bullet. After i get that worked out if im still looking for more ill play with seating depth.

 

[Bart B.]

Along the way you check for accuracy potential by shooting groups.

I'd shoot a 20-shot group with each load. 3-shot groups are statically meaningless.

Even 5-shot groups vary 3X to 5X in size as evidenced by all those shot by any one person shooting a couple dozen or more in a benchrest match. And those rifles are fired in free recoil unaffected by the variables we humans have aiming rifles held against us.

I'd change charge weights in 1 grain increments testing at any range 200 yards or less. Smaller increments are masked by shooter variables shouldering a rifle resting on bags atop a bench. In my experience, there's insignificant accuracy change across a 2-grain spread in charge weights through 200 yards.

 

[Orcon]

If you aren't concerned with velocities, then just stick with the load you've got and shoot the hell out of it. You should find a pretty good load around 44-45 grains with that bullet and powder combo, should you choose to pursue velocity. It seems to be a pretty agreeable load across many rifles with the 168 A-Max, my factory Remington will make a ragged 10 shot hole at 225yards that measures under an inch.

 

[LoonWulf]

I'd change charge weights in 1 grain increments testing at any range 200 yards or less. Smaller increments are masked by shooter variables shouldering a rifle resting on bags atop a bench. In my experience, there's insignificant accuracy change across a 2-grain spread in charge weights through 200 yards.

The only thing id caution is when doing this ALONG with a pressure ladder that may run near max, keep a close eye for any sign of pressure.
Ive seen loads jump from ok, to not ok, in a grain or so. You wont blow yourself up if your guns in decent shape, and your cases arnt old and worn, but you may skip right over the first signs of pressure. This also applies to small cases as the percentage of step is higher.
Once again if your working within known safe pressure, and or within book max your probably good.

 

[Kaldor]

You could chase more velocity if you want, but if you are happy then dont.

Im having issues with my Model 10, 26" 10 twist Criterion barrel, as in I cant get it to group with the 168 ELDs and TMKs and Varget. I shot this string, 5 of each, 44, 43.5, 43, 42.5, 42, no group was under an inch. These are LC cases, CCI 200 primers. The 43.35 and 44 are probably compressed, but no pressure signs, primers are good, no sticky bolt lift. Only thing I can think to do work backwards with 41.5, 41, 40.5, 40, 39.5 and see if I can hit a sweet spot, but I find it funny I couldnt find a node

 

[Bart B.]

Are those Lake City cases surplus ones previously fired in military weapons?

If so, their case heads are probably out of square enough to cause a half MOA or more group spread. Nobody finds a "node" with out of square case heads except by occasional luck. It gets worse if the bolt face isn't squared up.

That's what military rifle teams found out reloading LC match cases fired in their super accurate 7.62 service rifles whose bolt faces were not squared up with the chamber axis.

 

[Kaldor]

Are those Lake City cases surplus ones previously fired in military weapons?

If so, their case heads are probably out of square enough to cause a half MOA or more group spread. Nobody finds a "node" with out of square case heads except by occasional luck. It gets worse if the bolt face isn't squared up.

That's what military rifle teams found out reloading LC match cases fired in their super accurate 7.62 service rifles whose bolt faces were not squared up with the chamber axis.

I would imagine the cases are once fired MG brass as most 7.62 is. I know it sized really hard. But here is the thing, Ive found some really accurate loads with these cases, and was doing some testing on these. My favorite load is 168 AMAX and 8208. Shoots about 1/2" pretty consistently. Was frustrating to say the least.

 

[bikemutt]

Well, I learned a couple things yesterday with my version of a ladder test. I loaded up 15 rounds each with 41.7 and 44.0 grains Varget. All groups size were sub-MOA with 41.7 grains, only one made sub-MOA with 44.0 grains. If the rifle follows the load book I'm estimating the velocity would've been 2550 and 2650 respectively. So, I think I'll start with 41.7 grains and work it up and down.

I also learned that I have a lot more to learn; I discovered I was way off when I used the Hornady OAL gauge. Apparently I took the first sign of resistance as the point where the ogive contacted the lands; not so. I found this out while developing a starting point for my 6.5 Creedmoor rifle, the number I came up with just didn't make sense, were it correct not even factory ammo would chamber. Apparently the effort to find the lands with OAL gauge requires a bit more firmness than I thought.

The end result is rather than being 0.005 off the lands as I'd thought I was, I was more like 0.170 off the lands. Which I suppose demonstrates that a long bullet jump is not in itself a reason for poor accuracy.

Sigh

 

[Bart B.]

Yes, bullets can jump very straight out of case necks.

Whatever bullet to land jump distance you choose set by measuring from case head to some point on the bullet, it will vary by the spread in case headspace; distance from case head to a reference diameter on the shoulder. 308 case shoulders are hard against chamber shoulders when fired.

The rifling erodes down the barrel .001" for every 30 to 40 shots fired. Bullet jump can increase near 1/10th inch and good accuracy happens.