Saving or Protecting Guns From A House Fire?
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we are not amused
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Get some good smoke and fire detectors, invest in a home security system with fire alert capabilities, and install a fire suppression system, such as a sprinkler system.
Or buy a fire rated safe, preferably, one of the high rated ones.
Personally, I am saving up my money to buy a fire rated safe.
The only other possibilities seem to be put the safe where fire can't get at it, such as an outside metal shed or building, not that I would recommend such.
Oh, and make sure your home owner's or renter's insurance covers your guns. Having once had a house fire, a good insurance policy is priceless.
Or buy a fire rated safe, preferably, one of the high rated ones.
Personally, I am saving up my money to buy a fire rated safe.
The only other possibilities seem to be put the safe where fire can't get at it, such as an outside metal shed or building, not that I would recommend such.
Oh, and make sure your home owner's or renter's insurance covers your guns. Having once had a house fire, a good insurance policy is priceless.
oneounceload
member
Beware about many of the so-called fire rated ones - they typically have nothing more than a layer or two of sheetrock in between thin steel; others utilize better materials (higher priced) that actually insulate the insides better
45_auto
Member
Insurance is your friend.
denton
Member
On one of the boards I frequent, maybe this one, someone who had investigated thousands of fires offered that he had never seen a case where the fire protection in the safe had prevented the guns inside from being ruined.
frankenstein406
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don't the guns usually flash rust from all the humidity anyways? so if they are okay to still shoot depending on fire temp they wont be perfect anymore.
Ignition Override
Member
A friend's safe is rated to be fire-proof for something like thirty or maybe sixty minutes at XXX degrees.
ColtPythonElite
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Yep...
leadcounsel
member
Perhaps build the safe into layers of oven-style bricks and fire resistant drywall on 5 sides, build some sort of a hindged door using the same materials.... would create a LOT of weight and be a lot of work. Better to just buy an appropriate safe.
BSA1
member
Good comments so far.
My suggestion is select the location of your safe carefully. I cringe when I read about folks putting a safe on the second floor of their house. What kind of shape do they expect to find the contents in when the safe falls all the way into the basement in a burning bed of rubble?
Install your safe on a solid floor that will not collapse. You can also add protection from fire damage by surrounding the safe with two layers of 5/8" sheetrock. I think (somebody help me out my memory is a little hazy) two layers of 5/8" sheetrock is rated for 45 minutes of fire protection. For example you could put the safe in a small room/closet with two layers of 5/8" sheetrock on the walls and ceiling and a good steel door.
My suggestion is select the location of your safe carefully. I cringe when I read about folks putting a safe on the second floor of their house. What kind of shape do they expect to find the contents in when the safe falls all the way into the basement in a burning bed of rubble?
Install your safe on a solid floor that will not collapse. You can also add protection from fire damage by surrounding the safe with two layers of 5/8" sheetrock. I think (somebody help me out my memory is a little hazy) two layers of 5/8" sheetrock is rated for 45 minutes of fire protection. For example you could put the safe in a small room/closet with two layers of 5/8" sheetrock on the walls and ceiling and a good steel door.
MikeJackmin
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I don't think there is any practical way to really protect guns from a full-blown house fire. Insurance, to replace them, is the way to go.
If it gets to the point where your floors collapse, either your safe falls into the basement, or, if the safe is in the basement, then the entire house falls onto it. I don't think any fire safe can endure that.
Of course, not every fire is a major disaster. Sometimes the fire department can save the structure, and your biggest problems are water and smoke rather than heat.
The only time a firesafe will make a difference is if you are between those two extremes; when you are facing a moderate amount of heat for a fairly short period of time. This seems like a pretty unlikely scenario, not impossible of course, but unlikely. If it every got that hot in my house, next to my gun safes, my entire house would be almost certainly be lost.
If it gets to the point where your floors collapse, either your safe falls into the basement, or, if the safe is in the basement, then the entire house falls onto it. I don't think any fire safe can endure that.
Of course, not every fire is a major disaster. Sometimes the fire department can save the structure, and your biggest problems are water and smoke rather than heat.
The only time a firesafe will make a difference is if you are between those two extremes; when you are facing a moderate amount of heat for a fairly short period of time. This seems like a pretty unlikely scenario, not impossible of course, but unlikely. If it every got that hot in my house, next to my gun safes, my entire house would be almost certainly be lost.
Deaf Smith
Member
Fire safes come in different ratings. Some go for 4 hours at 2000 degrees!
http://www.safeandvaultstore.com/content/fire_ratings/
And then you can get compact fire safes for handguns and put them INSIDE your fire safe for added protection.
And insurance. NRA has a good program on that.
Oh, and while the guns are safe... what about YOU and your family?
Deaf
http://www.safeandvaultstore.com/content/fire_ratings/
And then you can get compact fire safes for handguns and put them INSIDE your fire safe for added protection.
And insurance. NRA has a good program on that.
Oh, and while the guns are safe... what about YOU and your family?
Deaf
Fella's;
There's some huge problems with trusting just a set of numbers provided to you by the manufacturer of an RSC. If you don't know what the test procedures were, you don't have enough information to make good decisions between brands, or if any brand provides enough protection for you. Go to the Underwriter's Laboratory website & find the specs for their one-hour thermal protection test. It's incredibly detailed, but when they say it passed their 1750 f for one hour, holding the interior temperature below 350 f test, you can be sure it's true data.
I've posted on this several times in the past on this site, but I'll go ahead & do it again. Thermal protection isn't rocket science, the methodology of how to provide it has been known for hundreds of years. Simply put, if you have more, or denser, or both, materials between the heat source and what you want to save, you get better protection.
Sheet rock is a good flame barrier, but it's not dense enough to provide a substantial time delay to heat soak. Sheet metal is just that, a thin layer of a dense material; emphasis on thin. Therefore, any RSC has to stack several layers of gypsum wall board to get a better true insulating capacity. Which takes room out of the interior of the unit you just paid some pretty good money for. Yes, there are now units that use a foam insulator that's supposed to be superior to sheet rock. They are high refractory/low density "plastics" that work kinda like this: They have a high melt temp for the plastic that gives a stable wall for the air bubbles that are actually the insulating medium. And lots of air bubbles mean low density/light weight.
Not being in the testing business myself, I don't know if they actually give the RSC a marginally better thermal performance factor, or a superior one. I'm old school, and I know that solid steel plate and concrete do have the ability to pass the U.L. one-hour test. Up the thickness of the steel plate & that type of construction will also pass the U.L. two-hour test.
True safes, not RSC's, cost more because they use better materials and more of 'em. Whether or not it's worth it to you is a personal decision you have to make. But, if the worth of your valuables is at least that of a true safe, how much can you afford to lose? Which, I admit, begs the question of how much does a true U.L. rated safe cost?
I sell Graffunder safes, and I'd be glad to quote you via PM if you so desire.
900F
There's some huge problems with trusting just a set of numbers provided to you by the manufacturer of an RSC. If you don't know what the test procedures were, you don't have enough information to make good decisions between brands, or if any brand provides enough protection for you. Go to the Underwriter's Laboratory website & find the specs for their one-hour thermal protection test. It's incredibly detailed, but when they say it passed their 1750 f for one hour, holding the interior temperature below 350 f test, you can be sure it's true data.
I've posted on this several times in the past on this site, but I'll go ahead & do it again. Thermal protection isn't rocket science, the methodology of how to provide it has been known for hundreds of years. Simply put, if you have more, or denser, or both, materials between the heat source and what you want to save, you get better protection.
Sheet rock is a good flame barrier, but it's not dense enough to provide a substantial time delay to heat soak. Sheet metal is just that, a thin layer of a dense material; emphasis on thin. Therefore, any RSC has to stack several layers of gypsum wall board to get a better true insulating capacity. Which takes room out of the interior of the unit you just paid some pretty good money for. Yes, there are now units that use a foam insulator that's supposed to be superior to sheet rock. They are high refractory/low density "plastics" that work kinda like this: They have a high melt temp for the plastic that gives a stable wall for the air bubbles that are actually the insulating medium. And lots of air bubbles mean low density/light weight.
Not being in the testing business myself, I don't know if they actually give the RSC a marginally better thermal performance factor, or a superior one. I'm old school, and I know that solid steel plate and concrete do have the ability to pass the U.L. one-hour test. Up the thickness of the steel plate & that type of construction will also pass the U.L. two-hour test.
True safes, not RSC's, cost more because they use better materials and more of 'em. Whether or not it's worth it to you is a personal decision you have to make. But, if the worth of your valuables is at least that of a true safe, how much can you afford to lose? Which, I admit, begs the question of how much does a true U.L. rated safe cost?
I sell Graffunder safes, and I'd be glad to quote you via PM if you so desire.
900F
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wally
Member
Probably the best way given the unpredictability and rarity of fires. Save yourself and your family first, all the "stuff" can be replaced!
Disclaimer: I have no actual expertise or experience with housefires. However I did teach advanced placement physics for a few years.
If you want to keep the temperature inside the safe from getting very hot, you have to put thermal insulation between the outside world and the inside of the safe. The cheapest way to do that is sheet rock, preferably the five eights inch thick stuff that is fire rated. Buy enough to put at least two thicknesses on all sides of the safe, get the joint compound, find a way to stuff in a removable front panel so you can protect it, remove the panel, and open the safe.
There is going to be some heat get through the insulation, it's a factor of the temperature difference between the two sides of the insulation, the area of the insulation, and the time. You want something on the inside of the safe that will prevent things from reaching any dangerous temperatures. There are two ways to absorb heat without allowing the temperature to rise. You either have to melt something, or you have to boil something. So you could put lots of lead in there in pans and it will melt and absorb heat, or you could put lots of water in there, and let it vaporize. I've heard anecdotal stories of people storing their potatoes inside the safe, well cooked potatoes, completely protected papers. Obviously, you would prefer to have your guns well oiled, greased, and inside waterproof Containers that won't melt at low temperatures.
Repeat of disclaimer: I have no experience with actual housefires. I would imagine the temperatures are astonishing, and continue for a long time. Even campfires go for hours.
If you want to keep the temperature inside the safe from getting very hot, you have to put thermal insulation between the outside world and the inside of the safe. The cheapest way to do that is sheet rock, preferably the five eights inch thick stuff that is fire rated. Buy enough to put at least two thicknesses on all sides of the safe, get the joint compound, find a way to stuff in a removable front panel so you can protect it, remove the panel, and open the safe.
There is going to be some heat get through the insulation, it's a factor of the temperature difference between the two sides of the insulation, the area of the insulation, and the time. You want something on the inside of the safe that will prevent things from reaching any dangerous temperatures. There are two ways to absorb heat without allowing the temperature to rise. You either have to melt something, or you have to boil something. So you could put lots of lead in there in pans and it will melt and absorb heat, or you could put lots of water in there, and let it vaporize. I've heard anecdotal stories of people storing their potatoes inside the safe, well cooked potatoes, completely protected papers. Obviously, you would prefer to have your guns well oiled, greased, and inside waterproof Containers that won't melt at low temperatures.
Repeat of disclaimer: I have no experience with actual housefires. I would imagine the temperatures are astonishing, and continue for a long time. Even campfires go for hours.
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As others have said, the fire protection in most gun safes is just drywall. When the internal temperature reaches the critical point all the moisture in the drywall is released and the inside of your safe is cooled by a steam bath. If the fire is bad enough for this to happen you probably won't be able to enter your house for a few days for safety reasons. By then your guns will be rusted beyond repair.
wrc
Member
This brings up something I've been wondering about. How effective are automatic fire suppression systems when dealing with fires that start somewhere else and travel to where a safe is?
I know that things like the QuickFire systems and other systems that seem geared towards engine compartments and closets work fine when putting out a fire that *starts* there, but I'm curious how they deal with fires that are already in-progress.
For example: You have your safe in a small room or closet that you install a fire suppression system in. Something like the examples above that are not meant to be used around people...they have foam and powder to put out flames when a certain temperature is reached. Presumably the fire isn't starting in the safe, so they're dealing with a fire that is spreading from elsewhere.
Has anyone heard of or even tested the effectiveness of this sort of setup in a house?
I know that the US has ditched standards for fire safe protections in favor of installation fire suppression in the case of GSA containers. Can you go half-way in your own house with a automatic fire suppression system that covers the area where a non-fire-safe is?
I know that things like the QuickFire systems and other systems that seem geared towards engine compartments and closets work fine when putting out a fire that *starts* there, but I'm curious how they deal with fires that are already in-progress.
For example: You have your safe in a small room or closet that you install a fire suppression system in. Something like the examples above that are not meant to be used around people...they have foam and powder to put out flames when a certain temperature is reached. Presumably the fire isn't starting in the safe, so they're dealing with a fire that is spreading from elsewhere.
Has anyone heard of or even tested the effectiveness of this sort of setup in a house?
I know that the US has ditched standards for fire safe protections in favor of installation fire suppression in the case of GSA containers. Can you go half-way in your own house with a automatic fire suppression system that covers the area where a non-fire-safe is?
Millwright
Member
Poster:
IMNEO you can expect wood stocks, optics, electronics to be toast ! But the base gun may be salvageable if gotten to quickly enough ! But if water has hit them all bets are off ! Fire Depts use some nasty additives to suppress fire these days !
You can find a variety of "tempil stick" type passive temperature recording devices you can place inside the safe that will tell you what temperature the safe interior reached. Me, I'd be concerned about how all those nifty pads/shelves/dividers inside the safe react/perform to exterior heat. >MW
IMNEO you can expect wood stocks, optics, electronics to be toast ! But the base gun may be salvageable if gotten to quickly enough ! But if water has hit them all bets are off ! Fire Depts use some nasty additives to suppress fire these days !
You can find a variety of "tempil stick" type passive temperature recording devices you can place inside the safe that will tell you what temperature the safe interior reached. Me, I'd be concerned about how all those nifty pads/shelves/dividers inside the safe react/perform to exterior heat. >MW
Huskerguy
Member
If I installed one I would do the following:
1. put it up off of the floor on metal reinforcement. Bolt the metal to the floor and then bolt the safe to the metal floor.
2. Cover the floor with at least two sheets of 5/8" sheet rock
3. Install at least two layers of 5/8" sheet rock on the back side, sides and top.
4. Use metal studs to screw the sheet rock to.
Essentially making a cabinet of sheet rock to set the safe it.
Put the safe against at least two concrete walls and in an area where it is hard to get to.
Now if you really want to get wild. Build a metal door with some very solid hinges that encloses the entire safe and extra sheet rock. Put the same 2 sheets of 5/8" sheet rock on the door.
Disguise the door.
None of this would be that hard to do.
1. put it up off of the floor on metal reinforcement. Bolt the metal to the floor and then bolt the safe to the metal floor.
2. Cover the floor with at least two sheets of 5/8" sheet rock
3. Install at least two layers of 5/8" sheet rock on the back side, sides and top.
4. Use metal studs to screw the sheet rock to.
Essentially making a cabinet of sheet rock to set the safe it.
Put the safe against at least two concrete walls and in an area where it is hard to get to.
Now if you really want to get wild. Build a metal door with some very solid hinges that encloses the entire safe and extra sheet rock. Put the same 2 sheets of 5/8" sheet rock on the door.
Disguise the door.
None of this would be that hard to do.
rduchateau2954
Member
My safe is near a window, best case I chuck them out the window if I get time. After hours and hours of reading stories and seeing pictures of safes and their contents after house fires I am beginning to think it's a big hoax.
Like the previous post, alarms, prevention, suppression.
Like the previous post, alarms, prevention, suppression.
cbuttre835
Member
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- Oct 8, 2011
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- 64
I'm not an expert but am educated in some areas. Licensed professional engineer (4 year degree); state of TN basic firemanship (57 hours) plus 4 live burns, and level II thermographer (80 - hour course).
Energy in the form of heat travels in three ways: convection, conduction, and radiation.
Conducted heat should be of minimum concern in a house fire. something hot has to be physically touching the safe. if it falls into a bed of coals, or hot coals surround it, there is a little conduction.
Convected heat is more of a concern. A hot fluid (in this case, air and steam) circulates around the safe and heats it up.
My biggest concern in a house fire, and what I think people (i.e. consumers and safe manufacturers) neglect, is radiated heat.
People say heat rises, right? WRONG. Heated AIR rises because it is less dense. If you don't believe me, hold your hand <below> a 1500W metal halide light bulb for a few minutes. It won't get hot, because HEAT RISES, RIGHT?
That being said, when a fire is rolling, heat is being radiated and absorbed also by the exterior of the safe. Stand beside a big bonfire, like one made of pallets. You get hot on one side (and can be freezing on the other side). That's radiated heat. It is present in house fires... it's how you get hot even after the fire has vented itself and cool air is coming in through the windows.
Energy is conserved - what the safe doesn't reflect, it absorbs. That pretty paint should have a low emissivity to help the life of the safe. I've not brought a FLIR home to check the emissivity of my safe, because I don't want to know. Ignorance is bliss.
As others have said, the sheetrock is not really "insulation"; it's more "thermal mass". It has a specific heat capacity (fairly high, I guess) as well as trapped water that will absorb its molar heat of vaporization and help slow heat energy from traveling outside inward.
The ideal safe to me, would be placed on an outside wall; in an area of the house with the lowest fire load; and rigged so that if the structure collapses it falls to the outside. It would be coated with polished silver (emissivity of 0.02, about as low as you can get - 98% of heat energy is reflected) that is stuck onto 1" plate steel, and lined with R50-worth of insulation (or better yet, vacuum) and another inner plate... all of which are polished silver plated.
I'd really like to see the specs on the test chambers safe manufacturers use. "1200 degrees at 30 minutes" ratings like those shown on the Walmart / Costco safes are useless to me; they are marketing crap like torque values for an engine.
What speed is the 1200 degree air circulated around the safe? What method is used to heat the air to 1200 degrees - electric elements, gas burners in the chamber, gas burners outside the chamber... what is the emissivity of the walls of the chamber itself? How similar are these conditions to an actual fire? What happens AFTER the 30 minutes; is the safe cooled quickly? At what rate? Is it insulated on the outside with ash or buried in a bed of coals?
My safe's on an outside corner in the lowest part of the house that also happens to have the least fire load. FD around here makes decent stops and should I ever have the need arise I'll try to instruct them to cool that particular corner and the safe down....
Energy in the form of heat travels in three ways: convection, conduction, and radiation.
Conducted heat should be of minimum concern in a house fire. something hot has to be physically touching the safe. if it falls into a bed of coals, or hot coals surround it, there is a little conduction.
Convected heat is more of a concern. A hot fluid (in this case, air and steam) circulates around the safe and heats it up.
My biggest concern in a house fire, and what I think people (i.e. consumers and safe manufacturers) neglect, is radiated heat.
People say heat rises, right? WRONG. Heated AIR rises because it is less dense. If you don't believe me, hold your hand <below> a 1500W metal halide light bulb for a few minutes. It won't get hot, because HEAT RISES, RIGHT?
That being said, when a fire is rolling, heat is being radiated and absorbed also by the exterior of the safe. Stand beside a big bonfire, like one made of pallets. You get hot on one side (and can be freezing on the other side). That's radiated heat. It is present in house fires... it's how you get hot even after the fire has vented itself and cool air is coming in through the windows.
Energy is conserved - what the safe doesn't reflect, it absorbs. That pretty paint should have a low emissivity to help the life of the safe. I've not brought a FLIR home to check the emissivity of my safe, because I don't want to know. Ignorance is bliss.
As others have said, the sheetrock is not really "insulation"; it's more "thermal mass". It has a specific heat capacity (fairly high, I guess) as well as trapped water that will absorb its molar heat of vaporization and help slow heat energy from traveling outside inward.
The ideal safe to me, would be placed on an outside wall; in an area of the house with the lowest fire load; and rigged so that if the structure collapses it falls to the outside. It would be coated with polished silver (emissivity of 0.02, about as low as you can get - 98% of heat energy is reflected) that is stuck onto 1" plate steel, and lined with R50-worth of insulation (or better yet, vacuum) and another inner plate... all of which are polished silver plated.
I'd really like to see the specs on the test chambers safe manufacturers use. "1200 degrees at 30 minutes" ratings like those shown on the Walmart / Costco safes are useless to me; they are marketing crap like torque values for an engine.
What speed is the 1200 degree air circulated around the safe? What method is used to heat the air to 1200 degrees - electric elements, gas burners in the chamber, gas burners outside the chamber... what is the emissivity of the walls of the chamber itself? How similar are these conditions to an actual fire? What happens AFTER the 30 minutes; is the safe cooled quickly? At what rate? Is it insulated on the outside with ash or buried in a bed of coals?
My safe's on an outside corner in the lowest part of the house that also happens to have the least fire load. FD around here makes decent stops and should I ever have the need arise I'll try to instruct them to cool that particular corner and the safe down....
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