Scary thing at drill this weekend

Status
Not open for further replies.
Titan6

I am not trying to lead you on a paper chase but,,,

Define how and why firing on a state militia is lawful based on oath of entry.

Define insurrection.

Then look to states rights under the constitution.
 
When the war between the states started in 1861, the Northerners thought they were fighting for the freedom and the nation that had been established by the heroic Founding Fathers. The Southerners thought that they were fighting for the freedom that had been established by the heroic Founding Fathers.

What makes you think that this would not repeat. The average guy in any organized military unit is going to react to a really serious crisis based on his belief system. Most of these guys are young and inexperienced, and subject to the conditioning in their lives up to that date. Most of them will follow orders, and will view the trouble makers in their sights as enemies.

Virtually nobody rebelled against the respective orders that originated with Adolph Hitler, or Joseph Stalin, or Franklin Roosevelt.
 
Yep, no one told Hitler no. Except those that tried to kill him. But lots of people in the South told their state houses they did not want to secede and they were crushed.

Next, tell me how the civil war was not about slavery and really was about states rights. Un-huh the right to do what?

But if you really read my post you would address that and not something else unrelated.
 
I do not disagree.

Think about the age of many of the troops, level of education, indoctrination etc. It is quite likely that many soldiers do not know when to question orders. It is not a course taught in boot.

My personal belief is that many soldiers will do whatever they are told based on their training. It is up to the senior enlisted to educate the junior guys about appropriate behavior in those circumstances to try to shut it down.
 
The reason for the training and the Marine answer (previously posted) is…

The oath:

I, {insert name here}, do solemnly swear, (or affirm), that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and DOMESTIC; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God.

While in uniform, there is no discussion if your oath means anything.

The flag we serve is red, white and blue, it flys above the 50 states flags. It is the United States and it is the Federal Government.

If you disagree, you still have the freedom to make a choice, but you only get one shot. Choose wisely grasshopper, the winners write the history books.
 
Most senior enlisted are clueless and could not tell you how many branches of government there are much less what the constitution says. Sure there are exceptions but they are not many.

One thing I do before I allow a mid-senior grade to reenlist is make them read the constitution. One of the little ways I fight that fight.
 
USN Retired,

It says to defend the constitution, not the government, not a particular political party's agenda.

Don't worry, I practice a lot.:D
 
+1 paco,
THE FLAG IS NOT THE GOVERNMENT!!!!!! The flag stands for the people of this country and the courage and sacrifice that made this country great. I am a citizen of the U.S. and I would take up arms against a govt that was oppressive, or sought to take away the freedoms granted in the Constitution, in a second!
 
So what if the State of __________; By free election of it's people combined with it's legislature decided to leave the union as it entered, by the will of the people? Say said State ratified a Declaration of Independance similiar to our nation's and the Governor ordered the borders closed and defended by the state militia. What would be the reaction of the federal government?

What if it were several states all at once? What if those state's militias were formidable enough to make a real defense?

Our nation is a confederation of independent states who joined together by choice. What if it all unraveled? Would active duty soldiers really fire on our own countrymen? I would hope not, but history seems to foretell the opposite.
 
I am a little confused about this thread. I suppose it is because I hate the destruction of freedom, and I see the real purpose of our present government as being to support the interest of the privileged few who manage to capture control of this government.

I assume that any insurrection, where people are willing to risk life, would be motivated by an attempt to rebel against this imposed slavery shifting wealth out of the pockets of the average man into the pockets of the power behind the politicians. So I am automatically sympathetic to the rebels and view the duty to suppress insurrection that Titan6 points out as just part of the
unacceptablel suppression of we slaves.

I suppose I go back to the initial idea of Jefferson who felt that periodic spilling of blood to nourish the tree of freedom was a necessity.
 
Next, tell me how the civil war was not about slavery and really was about states rights. Un-huh the right to do what?

I will. The northern states politicians wanted to consolidate more and more power to the Federal government. The southern states politicians were not going along with this, so the northern politicians, being the politicians they were, took an issue (slavery) that was growing in popularity and decided that it would use it to cripple the souths economy (which was entirely based on slave labor). This of course was seen as a violation of states rights by the south more so that any form of civil rights struggle (which is how the issue was sold in the north). The states started to succeed.

Notice it was the "Confederate States of America". Confederate means allied. As in separate but united. I doubt the word confederate was just the word of the day when they picked it.

Racism was the disgusting political face of the war.

Terrorism is the disgusting political excuse for the Patriot Act.
 
Not quite, SIOP. IIRC, about 25% of Marines questions said they would disarm insurrectionists. 61% responded either "no," or "hell, no." And if you go to the back of the study and read the margin comments turned in with the surveys, you draw a very different conclusion.

Given that these were young Marines products of the educational system of the early 90s, I'd say a 61% pro-gun response is pretty good.
 
Yeah, so the Southern states were right on the whole slavery question? Couch it however you want, the South was anti-freedom, anti-liberty. The same as the Islamic terrorists using an anti-freedom message to spread their hatred.
 
Yeah, so the Southern states were right on the whole slavery question?
Outlaws don't get into a discussion on the civil war with someone who refuses to advance his education on the subject past eighth grade history class, especially when his only recourse is to resort to twisty tactics
Couch it however you want, the South was anti-freedom, anti-liberty.
So was Lincoln, now what
Interestingly the northern generals got to keep their slaves even after the war , so tell me again how the war was about ending slavery and how the north was all about freedom, and liberty
Our nation is a confederation of independent states who joined together by choice.
No, that motion was soundly defeated in 1864
We are a federation of states not a confederation

Those states willingly entered into a system of a strong central government not an alliance between states
I agree that they were within their rights to leave the covenant, but we are not now nor have we ever been a confederation of states
 
Yeah, so the Southern states were right on the whole slavery question?

I never said that.

Outlaws don't get into a discussion on the civil war with someone who refuses to advance his education on the subject past eighth grade history class, especially when his only recourse is to resort to twisty tactics

You are probably right.


IMO the North was right on the anti-slavery thing, but for the wrong political reasons (attempting to bully the South into submission). The South was right on succeeding to preserve states rights, but for the wrong reason (an issue that has no moral defense). The United States of America, as intended by Founding Fathers, could only be destroyed no matter who won.
 
I agree with the reasons for being alarmed. But if I play devils advocate for a moment.

1. A "local militia" is not different than an "insurgents"
2. Was this specifically based in the US?
3. there is a chance all be it small that a situation of armed individuals attempt to attack .gov buildings or property and that would have to be defended. Although our constitution says we have the right to over through oppressive regimes it does not guarantee that we wont be opposed.

4. For me the scary thing is that if a local group of folks ever trained to "prepare for government abuse" they would be labeled as terrorists and effectively have rights ripped away in an instant.
 
Good to hear that you experienced this. I've read that this HAS taken place in the military with some units as well as NG units around the nation.

I think there might be a REVOLT but not a revolution. The difference? A revolt is put down.

How do I come up with this conclusion?

Easy.

There's no way in Hell the US gov't (no matter the administration) would stand by and not incorporate assistance from NATO and the UN (which includes Russia and China - you know, Gog and Magog).

If we were to suceed it would be disastrous for Europe and China as we would show their people how vulnerable the US gov't was for one. For two: WHO would have control of the nukes?? Europe, China and Russia would gladly assist in putting us down and the US gov't agents in charge at the time would gladly invite them.
 
Titan6 said:
Why would suppressing an insurrection be unlawful? That makes no sense.
Who said there was an insurrection? In pretty much every state that has a state militia, the state militia is sort of the junior varsity National Guard, filling in when the Guard is over-tasked (or busy being sent to places National Guard units should not be sent).
 
4. For me the scary thing is that if a local group of folks ever trained to "prepare for government abuse" they would be labeled as terrorists and effectively have rights ripped away in an instant.
Is it possible that this is the type of group that Lt was speaking of

Not all that long ago the word militia was perverted to mean this
 
There have been several criminal groups over the last couple of decades who feel that if they dress up in swiss alpine camo and run around the woods with aks and ars they should call themselves the militia of the state of X. In a way they are sort of are in the way your local softball team is a farm team for the Yankees.

They then use this to justify all kinds of nutty and criminal behavior. Because for example they might believe banking laws are somehow illegal they should be allowed to steal money from banks.

Railing on about gog and magog and invasion of UN troops is pretty typical craziness. After all we all know that power house UN military is the only thing that would be able to control the US population with that massive secret Airforce they keep hidden so well that nobody but them can see it (must all be super stealth bombers).

You can pretend they do not exist if you like or it will make you feel better. But that won't change reality.

This is the type militia that is dangerous not because any reasonable person will swallow that garbage but they reach a point in their paranoia where they take actions of killing people for no reason.

This is a type of insurrection a govenor might have to deal with. But the State of Texas Declaration of Independence and the State Guard being called up to close down the borders is more than a little far fetched.
 
I like that post that says the LT get his orders from the CPT and the CPT from the COL. As if some battalion commander doesn't have anything better to do then plan some platoon element lane training down to the minute detail.

I've been in the Texas Army National Guard going on 20 years and I have never witnessed or even heard of the guard training to fight civilians other than riot control and I haven't even seen the riot control training in over 10 years. I'm not saying the OP is a liar. I believe him. What I'm saying is it isn't a directive from high up to train to fight civilians.

Here are some myths I've read on these forums:

- US soldiers (recently) having firefights on the Mexican border
- Soldiers being deployed on the border with no ammo.
- Military conspiracy to fight US civilians.

There are others.

It's amazing to me how some people focus on the evil of the government and call people naive because they refuse to go along with simple minded conspiracy theories focused around the UN and the military.

In the meantime they go buy a bunch of Chinese crap from Walmart and "I love GW" bumper stickers while they look in the sky for the black helicopters.

The duality of this would be comical if it didn't cost the gun community credibility.
 
Titan6,

And here's the "If you disagree with me you're a racist" line. Sorry kid, doesn't wash. If you're trying to make a point, that's only going to make you look like a fool. Now if your motivation is to prove to yourself how you're in some unfathomable way superior to an untermench who dares disagree with you... well, everyone's got their own pet delusion or two.

You might want to read up on the means Lincoln used before you go singing the praises of holding a nation together by force and fear. Prison camps for anyone who spoke out or wrote in opposition to him isn't american.

It's easy to fault the south for slavery, but at the time that was hardly exceptional. If the civil war was over nothing more than slavery, it'd have been one hell of a lot easier for the federal government to have, if abolishing slavery was the goal of the Lincoln administration, to have done so, and compensated the former owners for their financial loss. Certainly seems a lot more reasonable than 4 years of war, over 600,000 dead, and 100 years of bitterness and scapegoating blacks for the southern defeat.

Of course this requires one to consider that Union's causus belli was the fact that the people of the CSA had that mistaken and peculiar notion that that one person could own another. Nevermind that line of thinking being contradicted by Lincoln's own orders to the US military, and that the emancipation proclamation was made only after a Union victory a full year after the beginning of the Civil War, was limited in scope to avoid offending border slave states still in the Union, and above all to effect public opinion in europe to end British and French aid to the CSA.

As to the issue of slavery in the south in the mid-19th century, politics is about perceptions. The perception at the time was that the prospect of ending slavery was akin to if today, your property is condemned so the town can get more tax revenue from having a Wal-Mart put there, or the issue we on THR are most concerned with, infringement of our human right to self defense and bearing of the means to do so. In the south in the 1860s, slaves were property. Judge it all you want, but at least have the intellectual honesty to admit that you do so as a person in the 21st century with 21st century attitudes.

Neither side took the "high road" in the matter while the option of a peaceable solution was available. And neither side behaved during the conflict in any fashion we'd today consider "american", except maybe the officers and soldiers on both sides. Slavery was immoral, and Lincoln ruled as a tyrant. In the end, both got their due, slavery was abolished, and Lincoln got a well deserved bullet.

Accounts always settle out.
 
I'd assume they use the militia since anyone else would be non-PC. And the Army, even though they exist solely to kill people, is extremely PC.

Replace "militia" with "insurgent group" and your outlook on the situation would be totally different, but they cant have that put out on the 11pm news.

Kharn
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top