School me on ARs, please - looking to purchase first

[Skylerbone]

My reasoning for a complete rifle is that if there is an issue, I can send it back.

You can do that with an upper or lower if purchased complete. Even the individual parts can be sent in if you build one. Same ease as warranty on a complete rifle, rest easy.

 

[danez71]

I bet most of us could.. I'm just saying, get the PSA and get going. No worries.
The colt costs a lot more.. may lend itself to being carefully handled.. wouldn't want to scratch or ding a thousand dollar colt. Lol.
I need to get out shooting more.

I hear ya and mostly agree.

As I said earlier, I'm not an AR guy. But I probably should be and may be one eventually. They are certainly appealing for all good reasons.

Personally, if I were to jump in today, I'd touchy feely a Ruger and S&W and see if I like either noticeably better or worse. I'm guessing the answer would be 'close enough to same'.

Then I'd ask here for pointers to specific items and look at PSA to see if there was a complete upper & lower that maybe gets me to something not quite what Ruger & S&W has to offer that I might like better.


What maxxhavoc said below is something that I finally understood a couple years ago after reading 50 threads. Unless you're truly building one from stripped lowers & uppers, it's really more of a plug and play game - a couple of pins and like magic you have a functional AR.

The support here is great.... and free, if ever needed.

.....the first thing you should do is clean it. This is most easily done by separating the upper and lower, which takes a few seconds. Reassembling is the same process as assembling a new upper and lower. So when people tell you to buy an upper and lower and put them together, you would not be building it Just undoing the first step in a cleaning.

 

[C-grunt]

There is a difference between Colt and at least the cheaper PSA rifles. It has to do with materials and testing.

It's up to you to decide if you need or want that extra expense.

But i can tell you from experience it does make s difference if you run the guns hard. I started with a Bushmaster duty rifle and changed over to Colt. I had more issues in the first week with my Bushmaster than I've had in the last decade with the Colt.

But like I've said I have had good experiences with the PSA rifles. But I've never run one really hard.

 

[Megawatt maker]

There is a difference between Colt and at least the cheaper PSA rifles. It has to do with materials and testing.

It's up to you to decide if you need or want that extra expense.

But i can tell you from experience it does make s difference if you run the guns hard. I started with a Bushmaster duty rifle and changed over to Colt. I had more issues in the first week with my Bushmaster than I've had in the last decade with the Colt.

But like I've said I have had good experiences with the PSA rifles. But I've never run one really hard.

Not wishing to argue with you, but have you actually checked what PSA is using lately? Its all high grade stuff now. 7075 aluminum, 4160 steel....416 stainless...all the same stuff Colt and other high dollar names use. This is even for almost all PSAs entry level stuff to boot. They use "machine gun steel" (Sorry...the number slips my mind at the moment) on their top end premium rifles and kits.

I agree with an earlier poster in Aero does a little better for economics(while its great, its not really Mil Spec either)...but as far as materials and function go..again, PSA offerings are just as good to them as well.

 

[Choctaw]

Not wishing to argue with you, but have you actually checked what PSA is using lately? Its all high grade stuff now. 7075 aluminum, 4160 steel....416 stainless...all the same stuff Colt and other high dollar names use. This is even for almost all PSAs entry level stuff to boot. They use "machine gun steel" (Sorry...the number slips my mind at the moment) on their top end premium rifles and kits.

I agree with an earlier poster in Aero does a little better for economics(while its great, its not really Mil Spec either)...but as far as materials and function go..again, PSA offerings are just as good to them as well.

This video came along just in time and shows that PSA products are good to go.

 

[Megawatt maker]

This video came along just in time and shows that PSA products are good to go.

lol! Entertainment supreme!

 

[mshootnit]

another boys playing in the mud video...useless for anything except amusement. The only conclusions that are valid are: 1. Guys like to throw and stomp and play with mud. 2. Guys like to watch same.

 

[Skylerbone]

Its all high grade stuff now. 7075 aluminum, 4160 steel....416 stainless...all the same stuff Colt and other high dollar names use.

PSA hasn’t upgraded any of those materials, they’ve always used them. That does not make them the same grade, those materials must be tested and certified. Beyond that, testing is done on the finished parts by Colt, and the spec sheet is followed for every task specified throughout the build.

They use "machine gun steel" (Sorry...the number slips my mind at the moment) on their top end premium rifles and kits.

We know that the proprietary steel used comes from FN, but we don’t know if these are untested, reject blanks, reject barrels, or blanks sold to PSA; which is to say we cannot say they are FN barrels or the same as FN barrels.

Neither guarantees the best barrel, or speaks to accuracy which is often mediocre at best because milspec specifies this too (and it isn’t very stringent).

I’m still surprised by this thread and all the voices recommending dipping down to the bottom dollar rifle, carrying on about “commercial spec” parts leaving you a rifle that isn’t compatible (the only “commercial parts” sold for an AR are the receiver extension and corresponding stocks, easily changed out or left the hell alone). Who says buy a 700 and blueprint it, then buy a replacement barrel instead of buy a Bergara for $100 more upfront and $800 less in the long run.

So little really speaks to what’s been asked for, like pointing to a Ford Fiesta when the guy asked for an F-Series.

 

[Megawatt maker]

PSA hasn’t upgraded any of those materials, they’ve always used them. That does not make them the same grade, those materials must be tested and certified. Beyond that, testing is done on the finished parts by Colt, and the spec sheet is followed for every task specified throughout the build.



We know that the proprietary steel used comes from FN, but we don’t know if these are untested, reject blanks, reject barrels, or blanks sold to PSA; which is to say we cannot say they are FN barrels or the same as FN barrels.

Neither guarantees the best barrel, or speaks to accuracy which is often mediocre at best because milspec specifies this too (and it isn’t very stringent).

I’m still surprised by this thread and all the voices recommending dipping down to the bottom dollar rifle, carrying on about “commercial spec” parts leaving you a rifle that isn’t compatible (the only “commercial parts” sold for an AR are the receiver extension and corresponding stocks, easily changed out or left the hell alone). Who says buy a 700 and blueprint it, then buy a replacement barrel instead of buy a Bergara for $100 more upfront and $800 less in the long run.

So little really speaks to what’s been asked for, like pointing to a Ford Fiesta when the guy asked for an F-Series.

Suppliers to PSA certify the materials are at spec....same as those Colt and Daniel etc get.

To say Colt tests each part is just. .lol. They don't!
They grab random samples...just like everyone else, even PSA.

PSA is actually held to a higher standard...they can get their pants sued off if they push defective products..same as Colt says to civilians, but not so much for Government sales.

It laughable you think the material PSA uses...made and sourced by the same mills and foundries as all makers...is somehow inferior because its not stamped Colt.

Far as the FN barrel arguement....they are FN barrels, plain and simple. If it was otherwise...again, false advertising is both bad for business...and can also be grounds to get sued.

If you like spending more for that fancy stamp.. .go nuts...your money.

 

[GravelRider]

Ok Team, I know next to nothing about ARs. Well, I know there are different caliber options, uppers, lowers, but that’s about it.

Gas piston, direct impinge, gas block, staked, pinned, chrome lined bores….I’m lost.

That out of the way, what I’m interested in - and relying on my fellow THR enablers - is research and experience! Tell me your horror stories and what you learned the hard way.

I want a 223, preferably a 1x7 or 8 twist (so I can run the 50-77grs), carbine (16”) length, and I think mil-spec “furniture” as opposed to “commercial?”
Seems the prices are finally coming down, so probably better to buy on the dip.

Not really looking to hunt with, but might with another upper one day. Coyotes and maybe a small hog.

Budget? $1000 or just under.
Brands I’ve looked at:
Windham
CMMG
Anderson
Ruger
Smith & Wesson

More or less interested in a serious plinker that may see some neglect or occasional abuse, but not going to battle with it.
Who makes the F150 of ARs? That’s what I’m interested in. Doesn’t have to be the top-of-the-line, but rather a solid choice. What do I need and can do without?

Thanks in advance.

PSA hasn’t upgraded any of those materials, they’ve always used them. That does not make them the same grade, those materials must be tested and certified. Beyond that, testing is done on the finished parts by Colt, and the spec sheet is followed for every task specified throughout the build.



We know that the proprietary steel used comes from FN, but we don’t know if these are untested, reject blanks, reject barrels, or blanks sold to PSA; which is to say we cannot say they are FN barrels or the same as FN barrels.

Neither guarantees the best barrel, or speaks to accuracy which is often mediocre at best because milspec specifies this too (and it isn’t very stringent).

I’m still surprised by this thread and all the voices recommending dipping down to the bottom dollar rifle, carrying on about “commercial spec” parts leaving you a rifle that isn’t compatible (the only “commercial parts” sold for an AR are the receiver extension and corresponding stocks, easily changed out or left the hell alone). Who says buy a 700 and blueprint it, then buy a replacement barrel instead of buy a Bergara for $100 more upfront and $800 less in the long run.

So little really speaks to what’s been asked for, like pointing to a Ford Fiesta when the guy asked for an F-Series.

Suppliers to PSA certify the materials are at spec....same as those Colt and Daniel etc get.

To say Colt tests each part is just. .lol. They don't!
They grab random samples...just like everyone else, even PSA.

PSA is actually held to a higher standard...they can get their pants sued off if they push defective products..same as Colt says to civilians, but not so much for Government sales.

It laughable you think the material PSA uses...made and sourced by the same mills and foundries as all makers...is somehow inferior because its not stamped Colt.

Far as the FN barrel arguement....they are FN barrels, plain and simple. If it was otherwise...again, false advertising is both bad for business...and can also be grounds to get sued.

If you like spending more for that fancy stamp.. .go nuts...your money.

Jesus, this is difficult to watch play out. On one hand, you've got a guy who is calling PSA bottom of the barrel junk because... Well, it isn't a Colt. On the other hand, you've got a guy who is claiming that a budget priced PSA is just as good as high dollar premium brands.

Do guys realize you're both wrong, right? The truth is somewhere in the middle of your argument. Of course a PSA isn't as good as a high dollar premium brand. But, they're not junk either.

 

[BigBlue 94]

I buy whatever is cheapest while not being junk. Aero, AR-Stoner, Anderson, KE, DPMS, Luth-AR etc. I like cassette triggers because the mill spec stuff is pretty tough and gritty.

For furniture, I buy whatever suits the look im going for. I dont care for carbine stocks or really aggressive looking fore ends. Current build is getting Boyds laminated wood furniture. Another has camo furniture from Yankee Hill.

 

[Skylerbone]

Jesus, this is difficult to watch play out. On one hand, you've got a guy who is calling PSA bottom of the barrel junk because... Well, it isn't a Colt. On the other hand, you've got a guy who is claiming that a budget priced PSA is just as good as high dollar premium brands.

Do guys realize you're both wrong, right? The truth is somewhere in the middle of your argument. Of course a PSA isn't as good as a high dollar premium brand. But, they're not junk either.

Im not calling PSA junk, I’ve got one in the safe. I’m also not advocating buying a Colt, plenty of AR owners have no interest in a fighting carbine.

Suppliers to PSA certify the materials are at spec....same as those Colt and Daniel etc get.

To say Colt tests each part is just. .lol. They don't!
They grab random samples...just like everyone else, even PSA.

First things first; materials can be in the same family and not the same quality. Like USDA Prime is not the same as Grade A Beef. Both still cows, same cut, same butcher, different quality. If you think all 7075 aluminum is “the same” then you are wrong.

It laughable you think the material PSA uses...made and sourced by the same mills and foundries as all makers...is somehow inferior because its not stamped Colt.

Not sourced from the same foundries, PSA forges their own and hammers their own barrels. Now the fact that they specify a proprietary steel leads to your inference that FN manufactured the barrel. Furthermore, you infer that it is the exact same barrel FN uses in their own ARs. Now read below and tell me where it says any of that beyond FN makes THE STEEL. Where is PSA’s guarantee (that must hold up in court???) that states empirically these are not seconds, not blanks finished off in house, etc.

Far as the FN barrel arguement....they are FN barrels, plain and simple. If it was otherwise...again, false advertising is both bad for business...and can also be grounds to get sued.

Again, refer to above. These are made with FN’s proprietary steel, all else is speculation and PSA won’t reply to a direct question.

I don’t own a single Colt rifle. If I had to pick one to run 1,000 rounds without failure, on penalty of having my arm chopped off, I’d chose Colt over PSA every day. Is Colt a premium rifle? Yes, for what it does best. Is it what I truly believe every AR owner wants for paper punching small groups and hunting with? Not even close.

By the same token, I’ve taken care not to bad mouth PSA, beginning with the explanation that I own one (shot a few more as well). My “claims” are only substantiated by what is not written.

Example: a geometric shape having 4 90 degree corners and only two sets of parallel line segments perpendicular to one another is a rectangle sure enough, but can you really guarantee that what I described is ALSO a square? You can believe it, you can say that guy is always drawing squares, selling squares, and talking about squares, but you cannot prove from the above that the shape is a square. That’s not bad mouthing, that’s cutting through the fog to show the veil that remains.

I have zero at stake when it comes to what someone else spends their money on. I build mine. For those who chose not to I recommend finding as close to what you want as possible. For an almost apples to apples between Aero and PSA, the PSA will cost more and will not enjoy the same aesthetics inside or out. The second thought is that someone who has no desire to build probably has no desire to simply pull everything apart to upgrade, which again is money wasted. I learned that lesson the expensive way as well.

This is an AR.


This is an AR.


Not all ARs are built for the same purpose.[/QUOTE]

 

[hawg]

When I bought my first one I didn't want to build one either mainly because I didn't know jack about them. I went with a S&W. When my wife shot it she wanted one and went with a Ruger. They're both good guns. No malfunctions in the year or so we've had them. They both run steel cased and brass with equal efficiency. Accuracy from what I've seen is up there with the best of them. I will say the trigger on the S&W is better than the Ruger.

 

[Megawatt maker]

Im not calling PSA junk, I’ve got one in the safe. I’m also not advocating buying a Colt, plenty of AR owners have no interest in a fighting carbine.


First things first; materials can be in the same family and not the same quality. Like USDA Prime is not the same as Grade A Beef. Both still cows, same cut, same butcher, different quality. If you think all 7075 aluminum is “the same” then you are wrong.



Not sourced from the same foundries, PSA forges their own and hammers their own barrels. Now the fact that they specify a proprietary steel leads to your inference that FN manufactured the barrel. Furthermore, you infer that it is the exact same barrel FN uses in their own ARs. Now read below and tell me where it says any of that beyond FN makes THE STEEL. Where is PSA’s guarantee (that must hold up in court???) that states empirically these are not seconds, not blanks finished off in house, etc.
View attachment 1042626



Again, refer to above. These are made with FN’s proprietary steel, all else is speculation and PSA won’t reply to a direct question.

I don’t own a single Colt rifle. If I had to pick one to run 1,000 rounds without failure, on penalty of having my arm chopped off, I’d chose Colt over PSA every day. Is Colt a premium rifle? Yes, for what it does best. Is it what I truly believe every AR owner wants for paper punching small groups and hunting with? Not even close.

By the same token, I’ve taken care not to bad mouth PSA, beginning with the explanation that I own one (shot a few more as well). My “claims” are only substantiated by what is not written.

Example: a geometric shape having 4 90 degree corners and only two sets of parallel line segments perpendicular to one another is a rectangle sure enough, but can you really guarantee that what I described is ALSO a square? You can believe it, you can say that guy is always drawing squares, selling squares, and talking about squares, but you cannot prove from the above that the shape is a square. That’s not bad mouthing, that’s cutting through the fog to show the veil that remains.

I have zero at stake when it comes to what someone else spends their money on. I build mine. For those who chose not to I recommend finding as close to what you want as possible. For an almost apples to apples between Aero and PSA, the PSA will cost more and will not enjoy the same aesthetics inside or out. The second thought is that someone who has no desire to build probably has no desire to simply pull everything apart to upgrade, which again is money wasted. I learned that lesson the expensive way as well.

This is an AR.
View attachment 1042628

This is an AR.
View attachment 1042627

Not all ARs are built for the same purpose.

[/QUOTE]
Steel and Aluminum are not beef....lol.

The standard for those materials is....well Standard. Doesnt matter who makes it...in however many different production plants...the final product is certified to meet the STANDARD established by SAE...or ASTM...or whoever it is...I can look up the specific abbreation of whatever group or committee wrote the standards...thats not important. My point is...if its certified as 7075 Aluminum....THATS WHAT IT IS! If its certified as 4160 steel....THATS WHAT IT IS!
These standards were created so final end products made from theses materials can be counted on to perform whatever job they are intended to do...be it steam piping, step ladders, cutlery, or GUNS! and whatever the hell else is made out the stuff.

Its an industrial standard....not one just for gun makers...

Second...to my knowledge PSA doesn't own steel mills or Aluminum foundries. So they buy it...just like Colt, Daniel, Ruger and whoever else does....and seeing how steel mills tend to produce batches of the same STANDARD materials...its a good bet they all buy it from the same batches as well.

If I'm not mistaken...the CFM (high end) Rifles and kits PSA sells...that advertise FN steel...also have barrels marked as such....seems to me...FN wouldnt like their name being associated with a product they didn't directly produce...especially for something like a gun barrel that could kill people if defective.


THEY ARE FN BARRELS...plain and simple. Why they don't come right out and say that...I don't know, but I'm sure they have a good reason.

Colt is no better than PSA. I handled, shot, cleared enough damn jambs from Colts to know this first hand. I've never seen a Daniel Defense in person to make a judgment if they are really any better than PSA either...seeing how all parts can fit and cross fit onto either brand.. Just seems like more cost for the name for the same...but I'm staying open minded till the day comes that I get to try one out. I don't honestly see how or what they do any different that makes them any better.

Stag and S&W....nope. My stag is one of the worse accuracy guns I've ever owned. Had a S&W once too. It was no better or worse than my PSA. I've never owned a Ruger AR... seeing how I've never been impressed with a damn thing they have ever made...but I suspect they make a decent AR

 

[Skylerbone]

Have it your way, not here to argue. If you don’t know that not all materials meet standards that’s fine. If your belief trumps what PSA claims, fine. If you believe PSA doesn’t forge its own parts, fine. If you believe PSA doesn’t produce its own barrels at their subsidiary DC Machine, fine.

My experience having owned (and still an owner) of PSA, Anderson, Aero, SOLGW, and RRA is that Aero produces a rifle with better parts, more accurate barrel, and nicer finish compared to anything made by PSA and at a price point that is difficult to beat.

If we want to reduce standards to ___ uses ___ steel then we should say anything labeled as an AR 15 is exactly the same.

 

[Gus Chiggins]

Have a peek at Radical Firearms offerings. They're in Stafford Texas. I couldn't get a complete rifle up here. Just the upper and lower. Interesting the lower has the 'auto' stamped on it.

 

[Megawatt maker]

Have it your way, not here to argue. If you don’t know that not all materials meet standards that’s fine. If your belief trumps what PSA claims, fine. If you believe PSA doesn’t forge its own parts, fine. If you believe PSA doesn’t produce its own barrels at their subsidiary DC Machine, fine.

My experience having owned (and still an owner) of PSA, Anderson, Aero, SOLGW, and RRA is that Aero produces a rifle with better parts, more accurate barrel, and nicer finish compared to anything made by PSA and at a price point that is difficult to beat.

If we want to reduce standards to ___ uses ___ steel then we should say anything labeled as an AR 15 is exactly the same.

Wow. You don't want to argue, so you change or ignore almost everything I say...

ok...here we go...

I'm not the one who "doesn't know" all materials don't meet the standard...that be you.

PSA lists the materials they use...Those materials are INDUSTRY STANDARD certified materials....and not the cheap stuff either.

You think they are lying?

And just what the heck do you mean...my beliefs Trump PSAs claims? What are you even talking about?

I never said PSA doesn't forge their own parts...I also know damn well they make their own barrels...never claimed they didn't. They forge and machine these parts...from the certified materials they list in the descriptions of their products...again, unless you are accusing thrm of lying.

I was talking about the FN barrels on their premium rifles and kits. FN steel...with double chrome lining..

That alone, if you can use logical deductive reasoning...should tell you they are in fact FN barrels...because if they were not, you would see chrome lining in a lot more of PSAs barrels...but you don't. That means they don't have the capacity, personal, expertise or equipment to do it....

Only logical conclusion one can come to it....they ARE FN made barrels!

And school me this...just how are the parts Aero makes (other than some cool ergonomic features), RRA and the others you list any better....when they are all made out of the EXACT SAME MATERIAL....done on a CNC machine...most likely using the extract same program....again..unless you still think PSA is lying.

Far as finish goes.....MEH. I personally don't give a rats butt too much about that. Im buying a tool...not a work of art. The finish on PSAs stuff is plenty durable...I didn't buy them for beauty...sure as hell aint going to pay more for it.

 

[Skylerbone]

And school me this...just how are the parts Aero makes (other than some cool ergonomic features), RRA and the others you list any better....when they are all made out of the EXACT SAME MATERIAL....done on a CNC machine...most likely using the extract same program.

So a 1911 is a 1911 and they’re all the same. An AR is an AR no matter who made it, they’re all the same. On the ignore list you go.

 

[Skylerbone]

Have a peek at Radical Firearms offerings. They're in Stafford Texas. I couldn't get a complete rifle up here. Just the upper and lower. Interesting the lower has the 'auto' stamped on it. View attachment 1042691

My one shot given to Radical was for a complete upper. Came with a seriously crooked gas block. I’d read that in numerous reviews, figured no worries, I’ll loosen it, dimple it with my jig, and be done in 5 minutes. After twisting every T-15 I owned I took a trip to the hardware store, twisted 4 more, then drilled it out and put a different gas block on. Hard pass on anything Radical for me.

 

[Megawatt maker]

So a 1911 is a 1911 and they’re all the same. An AR is an AR no matter who made it, they’re all the same. On the ignore list you go.

Well...they pretty much are...so there's that. The differences are small..and the name stamped on it is really all you're paying extra for.

 

[Moparnut]

The Ruger I bought does have the plastic DElta Ring, but, I swapped it out when I put my STNGR MLOK Free Float handguard on it.

So like all others, they are able to be modded to what you want.

So you changed out the Delta ring. Some folks may not be comfortable doing that. Which was kinda my point. I was asking if we knew which rifles were, I guess milspec. As opposed to proprietary.

 

[Moparnut]

Literally all of them are.

Yes they are, but I was more thinking about a newbie who might just want to do a new stock and drop in handguard. I understand most of this stuff isn't hard to do, but some folks may not be as mechanically inclined.

Like my example of my Wyndham rifle. It had a commercial buffer tube, so I couldn't just put any stock that I wanted on it. I had to replace the buffer tube.

I should have clarified, READILY adaptable. To me that meant no major parts removal or replacement.

 

[ECVMatt]

I am not sure about everybody else, but all of my "Machine Gun Steel" barrels from PSA are stamped with the FN factory mark.

I somehow ended up with three of the premium uppers with this barrel and the all have the factory FN mark.

I don't think FN would allow PSA to sell junk steel or reject barrels with the factory stamp.

One thing for sure, there are so many manufacturers and so many variances in build quality that it will drive you crazy trying to directly compare one to the other.

Sorry for the bad pic but here is the stamp found on all three of my barrels.

 

[Skylerbone]

Of the 8 ARs in my safe the PSA is the only one sporting a GI barrel nut that I recall.

Proprietary; Aero, Phase 5, Luth-AR, Rock River (Yankee Hill), Seekins Precision, and a good many more. Nearly all of them are a better attachment system than the original IMO except where uniformity is a must as in squad weapons.

 

[Moparnut]

Thanks for all the comprehensive replies, fellas. I’m still doing my due diligence, but at the moment I’m leaning toward a 6920 or a PSA complete rifle.

The Colt b/c my local gunsmith recommended them saying everything tends to be correct in alignment and tight right from the box, and the PSA for inexpensive with good reviews.

My reasoning for a complete rifle is that if there is an issue, I can send it back. My local smith has agreed to handle the transfer and check everything out, and I’ll get him to show me the ins and outs of the platform once I make the final decision. I figure how can I go wrong with his advice and tutorial?

That's awesome. Glad you got it down to 2 choices. Go shoot it ,have fun and be safe!

And be sure to come back and ask about optics. I'm sure we can fill up another 4 pages of choices.