School me on ARs, please - looking to purchase first

[GunnyUSMC]

Gunny has taken more than 12 Steps

They don’t call me the Enabler for nothing.

 

[Skylerbone]

It’s the good type of enabling however. I wasted a lot of time and money before you guys got it through my head that purpose dictates parts used, parts used dictates results, and some parts are universally smart money (like good quality springs).

I’d like to say my foolish spending ended with that lesson but I do still jazz up my ARs a wee more than absolutely necessary. Still, I’m comfortable with the ergos and learning as I venture off each time that there are still more gems to find.

 

[Pudge]

I've never wanted an AR. They're fine, but I sure don't need a .223/5.56 for anything, and I really don't need a 30 round magazine. I have a son with whom I share a great relationship, but not many common interests. A while back he asked me: "Would you be interested in building an AR?" Turns out I did want an AR.

 

[GunnyUSMC]

It’s the good type of enabling however. I wasted a lot of time and money before you guys got it through my head that purpose dictates parts used, parts used dictates results, and some parts are universally smart money (like good quality springs).

I’d like to say my foolish spending ended with that lesson but I do still jazz up my ARs a wee more than absolutely necessary. Still, I’m comfortable with the ergos and learning as I venture off each time that there are still more gems to find.

I’ve only built a hundred or so ARs, but I always keep functionality in mind. But then sometimes you have to throw in some cool factor.
Here’s one that I spent over $1000 to build.
I hand painted the Jack lower myself. I thought that the Ergo butt stock was nice, but found it to be to heavy.


I replaced the Ergo stock with a Magpul UBR and was much happier.



I wanted it to be my pirate gun so add a nice dust cover .


I found some Jolly Roger takedown pins and add them.


Many first time buyers are happy with just a basic rifle and never upgrade anything. Some put nicer furniture on and are happy.
For me, I just couldn’t decide on what I wanted so I built several. But I do have my favorite duty setup. I added a red dot right after this pic was taken.


I’m sure that after @Anchorite makes a few trips to the range, he will have questions for us. We will have plenty of answers and opinions, and most likely some of us won’t agree. But what we need to keep in mind is that we all like firearms and enjoy talking about them, even if our opinions are different.

 

[DMW1116]

I’d recommend a PSA upper and lower purchased separately and then pinned together. It saves about 11% in cost due to a tax applied to completed firearms. I bought a lower already assembled and the upper of my choice already assembled and pinned them together. Only 2 pins hold the upper and lower together. If you disassemble them to clean it you can assemble an upper and lower combo of your choice.

 

[MistWolf]

I’d recommend a PSA upper and lower purchased separately and then pinned together. It saves about 11% in cost due to a tax applied to completed firearms.

That 11% tax is the reason we have still have some nice, affordable ranges and hunter safety programs.

 

[Megawatt maker]

Ok...since this thread as gone off track, and yes, I know I'm partly responsible for this....

Answer me this question guys.....

First, I'm not looking for likes, this isn't facebook, I'm not looking to go viral and this isn't a popularity contest.
Second, I'm not on PSAs payroll, not looking for or hoping they cut me a check for talking them up on a gun forum. I layed out my reasons why I like PSA...not going to beat that horse anymore...

Ok...that out of the way....

I've built mostly PSA..but along the way, I have used or swapped out other brands parts. CMMG trigger groups, some RRA parts here and there...and frankly, I didn't notice a dang thing that was any different, better or worse between the brands. They all just work as expected. Cartigridge triggers are a different story. Im partial to Timney....but I've never tried Gazelles..but that another topic...

So, can any of you who have used the top name brand build kits and parts post me some pictures as examples in comparison to PSAs parts that show the others brands are superior?

I'm willing to admit...at times...that I'm wrong. Im not Trump! lol...but serious, school me on this. Show me the proof...pretent Im from Missouri instead of Pennsylvania.

Fit and finish I get...I can see that in the pictures myself. Daniel and others do take the time to make them pretty, and that's just fine. Myself and my personal point of view...Im a little old school...a beautiful gun to me must be made out of hardwood and steel. ARs are...well for lack of a better term....Space guns. They are tools, and IMO...are ugly to start with, rivaled only by the AK in that department (but it at least has wood)..but alas..thats a personal thing. I see the AR as a tool, and only a tool, and its not worth paying the extra for "pretty"...I my AR world view...form follows far behind function. But..to each their own...

So..looks fit and finish aside ..what do the big name expensive brands do so much better that justifies the price they command?

 

[Spats McGee]

I have one AR, a few lowers and a whole bunch of parts. I guess I need to get on those builds.

 

[Zerodefect]

Ok...since this thread as gone off track, and yes, I know I'm partly responsible for this....

Answer me this question guys.....

First, I'm not looking for likes, this isn't facebook, I'm not looking to go viral and this isn't a popularity contest.
Second, I'm not on PSAs payroll, not looking for or hoping they cut me a check for talking them up on a gun forum. I layed out my reasons why I like PSA...not going to beat that horse anymore...

Ok...that out of the way....

I've built mostly PSA..but along the way, I have used or swapped out other brands parts. CMMG trigger groups, some RRA parts here and there...and frankly, I didn't notice a dang thing that was any different, better or worse between the brands. They all just work as expected. Cartigridge triggers are a different story. Im partial to Timney....but I've never tried Gazelles..but that another topic...

So, can any of you who have used the top name brand build kits and parts post me some pictures as examples in comparison to PSAs parts that show the others brands are superior?

I'm willing to admit...at times...that I'm wrong. Im not Trump! lol...but serious, school me on this. Show me the proof...pretent Im from Missouri instead of Pennsylvania.

Fit and finish I get...I can see that in the pictures myself. Daniel and others do take the time to make them pretty, and that's just fine. Myself and my personal point of view...Im a little old school...a beautiful gun to me must be made out of hardwood and steel. ARs are...well for lack of a better term....Space guns. They are tools, and IMO...are ugly to start with, rivaled only by the AK in that department (but it at least has wood)..but alas..thats a personal thing. I see the AR as a tool, and only a tool, and its not worth paying the extra for "pretty"...I my AR world view...form follows far behind function. But..to each their own...

So..looks fit and finish aside ..what do the big name expensive brands do so much better that justifies the price they command?

Leftovers, are always cheaper than fresh food.

PSA has been selling the same stuff for a decade. And others have been selling that for 20 years longer.

The expensive companies are pushing the limits and using new parts and innovation.

If you compare a PSA KISS rifle, to any other KISS rifle, the pricing isnt too far off.

When you start adding ambi safeties, extended charging handles, 410ss barrels, adjustable gas blocks, captured buffers, new rails etc. Price goes up.

Then when everybody likes your product, and starts buying it faster than you can produce it, price goes way up.

Personally, I wont buy a barrel that isnt dimpled and machined precisely for its included gas block. 0 alignment needed. Stuff like that, adds cost.

While I dont see anything wrong with PSA kits, I dont see anything expensive in them either.

My Larue kit was $800. A similar PSA kit is about $600. The Larue has a better barrel, stock, way better trigger, gas block, rail, rail mounting type, upper receiver, and comp suppressor mount.

It included the barrel nut tool. And sometimes an extra low profile barrel nut. Which could be handy on a future build.

 

[trackskippy]

Ive got a bunch of AR's, Colt, Armalite, S&W, and some PSA kits. Other than the one Armalite, which was built as a match/precision type rifle, they all shoot pretty much the same, and have all been reliable and trouble free.

Even that one Armalite shoots about the same as the others when using basic factory or GI ammo. You can put all the expensive parts in the gun you want, but if you dont address the ammo issue, youre probably not going to see much of a difference from an accuracy standpoint.

The PSA's I have, are all preassembled 10.5" pistol uppers on different lowers that I assembled using LPK's I found cheap. They have all been working well and shoot great too. 1"-1.5" at 100 from a rest, and most of that has been shot with a 4moa red dot and my generic "blasting" reloads. My other AR's shoot about the same using that same ammo too.

Ive been shooting my one PSA gun, 50-100 rounds a week, pretty much every week since it was put together, and I havent had any problems with it.

Based on what Ive seen with what I have, at this point, I wouldnt have a problem buying anything PSA.

My S&W is a gun I got in a trade, and wasnt really even considering getting one. Its a M&P15T and it shoots well and is accurate. My son has one as well and his has been the same. I wouldnt have a problem going that route if I was looking for a decent gun at a reasonable price.

I also have a couple of S&W M&P15-22's. Had some trouble with one I got used, and they ended up giving me a new one, but it, and the pistol version I got later, have been 100%.

I have a Colt SP1 I bought new back in the early 70's. Its got about a bazillion rounds through it at this point and still shoots great and has never been a problem.

Ive had a couple of other generic kits that gave the same basic results as the PSA's. They worked and they shot OK. I tend to agree with Megawatt maker, most of them will work and shoot similarly, and unless you're overly picky about looks, or are looking for something well beyond normal accuracy expectations, I dont think youre going to have many, if any problems with most of them.

 

[Megawatt maker]

Leftovers, are always cheaper than fresh food.

PSA has been selling the same stuff for a decade. And others have been selling that for 20 years longer.

The expensive companies are pushing the limits and using new parts and innovation.

If you compare a PSA KISS rifle, to any other KISS rifle, the pricing isnt too far off.

When you start adding ambi safeties, extended charging handles, 410ss barrels, adjustable gas blocks, captured buffers, new rails etc. Price goes up.

Then when everybody likes your product, and starts buying it faster than you can produce it, price goes way up.

Personally, I wont buy a barrel that isnt dimpled and machined precisely for its included gas block. 0 alignment needed. Stuff like that, adds cost.

While I dont see anything wrong with PSA kits, I dont see anything expensive in them either.

My Larue kit was $800. A similar PSA kit is about $600. The Larue has a better barrel, stock, way better trigger, gas block, rail, rail mounting type, upper receiver, and comp suppressor mount.

It included the barrel nut tool. And sometimes an extra low profile barrel nut. Which could be handy on a future build.

I generally agree with all this. I've seen LaRue stuff at the range...I do like it, and the prices for what they offer is indeed very attractive.

I'll just point one thing out...PSA uses 418 Stainless in their barrels..which is a step above 410...but really not a big step...both are excellent materials. I've also have not seen (yet) any misalignment on the gas blocks on any of my PSAs builds, and a few of mine came with adjustable gas blocks (both AR 10s however)...but I do admit...the charging handles on all my PSAs kits have left MUCH to be desired. They work, I'll say that, but it always the first thing to get upgraded too.

 

[dranrab]

Ok Team, I know next to nothing about ARs. Well, I know there are different caliber options, uppers, lowers, but that’s about it.

Gas piston, direct impinge, gas block, staked, pinned, chrome lined bores….I’m lost.

That out of the way, what I’m interested in - and relying on my fellow THR enablers - is research and experience! Tell me your horror stories and what you learned the hard way.

I want a 223, preferably a 1x7 or 8 twist (so I can run the 50-77grs), carbine (16”) length, and I think mil-spec “furniture” as opposed to “commercial?”
Seems the prices are finally coming down, so probably better to buy on the dip.

Not really looking to hunt with, but might with another upper one day. Coyotes and maybe a small hog.

Budget? $1000 or just under.
Brands I’ve looked at:
Windham
CMMG
Anderson
Ruger
Smith & Wesson

More or less interested in a serious plinker that may see some neglect or occasional abuse, but not going to battle with it.
Who makes the F150 of ARs? That’s what I’m interested in. Doesn’t have to be the top-of-the-line, but rather a solid choice. What do I need and can do without?

Thanks in advance.

Unless I missed it, you didn't mention if you wanted sights or "optics ready."

I have been thinking about buying another beater AR. This is one of the best deals out there on an F150 grade AR:

https://www.cdnnsports.com/firearms/semi-auto-rifles/anderson-m4-556-reflex-optic-package.html

If you want an AR with sights and more of an XLT package F150:

https://www.cdnnsports.com/firearms/semi-auto-rifles/springfield-armory-saint-mlok-5-56.html


Based on my experience with Ruger's crappy QC (and not just on my AR), I would not consider another Ruger AR. Mine works well now, but had to go back to Ruger to get that way.

From the world of FWIW about MilSpec:

https://www.americanrifleman.org/content/the-milspec-definition/

 

[GNP]

Unless I missed it, you didn't mention if you wanted sights or "optics ready."

I have been thinking about buying another beater AR. This is one of the best deals out there on an F150 grade AR:

https://www.cdnnsports.com/firearms/semi-auto-rifles/anderson-m4-556-reflex-optic-package.html

If you want an AR with sights and more of an XLT package F150:

https://www.cdnnsports.com/firearms/semi-auto-rifles/springfield-armory-saint-mlok-5-56.html


Based on my experience with Ruger's crappy QC (and not just on my AR), I would not consider another Ruger AR. Mine works well now, but had to go back to Ruger to get that way.

From the world of FWIW about MilSpec:

https://www.americanrifleman.org/content/the-milspec-definition/

And that article is exactly correct...no civilian market AR goes through the same testing and inspection process that military contract weapons do. Any manufacturer that has fulfilled government mil-spec contracts has demonstrated that they are capable of building firearms that meet those specs, it's not something to take lightly, those guns receive a lot of inspection before they are released to the military. Old, but some good info:

http://www.defensereview.com/wp-con..._about_MilSpec_by_David_Crane_Summer_2008.pdf

I have a copy of an obsolete mil-spec standard for the M4 saved on my computer, there are several of them here.

http://everyspec.com/MIL-SPECS/MIL-SPECS-MIL-DTL/MIL-DTL-71186B_56192/

 

[Skylerbone]

No, I don’t really put people on Ignore, there’s no learning in that.

I have used or swapped out other brands parts. CMMG trigger groups, some RRA parts here and there...and frankly, I didn't notice a dang thing that was any different, better or worse between the brands. They all just work as expected.

Surely you have a list of brands to avoid in every category of consumption? Again, this isn’t about PSA not being good enough to work, it’s about the wider world of ARs that might work just as well with improvements built in.

So, can any of you who have used the top name brand build kits and parts post me some pictures as examples in comparison to PSAs parts that show the others brands are superior?

You’ve qualified your statements in such a way as to eliminate that possibility by asserting that PSA parts work therefore they are the equal of any part that works. This sets a ceiling of functional, ignoring anything that works better as simply the same, with a penalty of higher price.

So..looks fit and finish aside ..what do the big name expensive brands do so much better that justifies the price they command?

Again the disparity in price for a closer to apples to apples comparison is not large if present at all. The point has been made over and over that this is not a case of disparaging PSA or any other specific maker but to point out (by opinion) the best possible options given budget and purpose.


Functionally the same.


But in reality different. Call it more functional or enhanced.


Functionally the same, but, well, very different with interaction.


Functionally the same as any other bolt, but 158 and MPI tested.


Functionally the same, but better purchase and better angle for this rifle.


Functionally the same, built for very different purposes.



Just as I wouldn’t recommend a G19 over a Ruger PCC for hunting deer, I wouldn’t recommend any basic carbine AR for someone not dedicating it to home defense/self-defense. I can picture people’s first interaction with an AR as crucial to their opinion of the platform going forward. Trying to make that as positive an introduction as possible helps retain that interest and leads to future purchases.

Just found a PSA upper in the safe I had forgotten about. See, I don’t hate them a bit.

 

[MistWolf]

No, I don’t really put people on Ignore, there’s no learning in that…

You can put people on your Full Of Shtuff list.

 

[GunnyUSMC]

@Megawatt maker , I’m not into Facebook, but likes here on the forum kind of let you know if you’re posting things that members like to read, or find interesting.

Ok...since this thread as gone off track, and yes, I know I'm partly responsible for this....

Answer me this question guys.....

First, I'm not looking for likes, this isn't facebook, I'm not looking to go viral and this isn't a popularity contest.
Second, I'm not on PSAs payroll, not looking for or hoping they cut me a check for talking them up on a gun forum. I layed out my reasons why I like PSA...not going to beat that horse anymore...

Ok...that out of the way....

I've built mostly PSA..but along the way, I have used or swapped out other brands parts. CMMG trigger groups, some RRA parts here and there...and frankly, I didn't notice a dang thing that was any different, better or worse between the brands. They all just work as expected. Cartigridge triggers are a different story. Im partial to Timney....but I've never tried Gazelles..but that another topic...

So, can any of you who have used the top name brand build kits and parts post me some pictures as examples in comparison to PSAs parts that show the others brands are superior?

I'm willing to admit...at times...that I'm wrong. Im not Trump! lol...but serious, school me on this. Show me the proof...pretent Im from Missouri instead of Pennsylvania.

Fit and finish I get...I can see that in the pictures myself. Daniel and others do take the time to make them pretty, and that's just fine. Myself and my personal point of view...Im a little old school...a beautiful gun to me must be made out of hardwood and steel. ARs are...well for lack of a better term....Space guns. They are tools, and IMO...are ugly to start with, rivaled only by the AK in that department (but it at least has wood)..but alas..thats a personal thing. I see the AR as a tool, and only a tool, and its not worth paying the extra for "pretty"...I my AR world view...form follows far behind function. But..to each their own...

So..looks fit and finish aside ..what do the big name expensive brands do so much better that justifies the price they command?

At first I was wondering if you were ever going to ask a question.
Your question in itself should be posted as it’s own topic. All it does here is drive this topic further off rail.

 

[crestoncowboy]

I bought my first ar when the ban first died. Quite possibly the sorriest made by most people accounts. An Olympic with commercial buffer tube and backward staked ring. Lol. When people had the trusty "tier chart" for AR...Olympic was buried somewhere under the "trash" tier. Back then you pretty much had Colt, Olympic, and windham bushmaster. Also back then I looked at a steyr AUG with the nice built in optic for about the same price...AR weren't cheap.

Ive since collected everything from basic colt 6920 to lmt to Noveske and DD. Ive had more fun and no more trouble from the junky Olympic than I have the others. It has a stupid twist rate that works great with 40 grain vmax. It has a sorry non-chrome lined bore.... shoots sub-moA still today. Its not half the gun my others are. No doubt about that. If going to battle id grab one of those others (with no real preference which one...just not the oly). Sadly too, the Olympic (cheapest made back then as far as I know) costed as much in 04 than I paid for all but the LMT and even it was very little difference. Lol. NOTHING was under a grand at that time. If you found a sub 500 dollar AR back then....it was stolen.

Personally I think the AR is a fine battle carbine for troops to fill many roles. For me it's heavy for a varmint caliber, clunky, awkward, and would be a low choice in my gun collection for any purpose other than ooh and aahh ing. In my opinion it's Much like the 1911.... Everyone should have one or ten.... but there are better choices for most everything they do. They are the el camino/Ranchero/brat/baja of the gun world. They do nothing better than several others, but are sufficient at a lot.

If buying one today, I'd evaluate what my purpose was for it. If a pop can/just in case gun...id probably buy a cheap anderson/palmetto/Smith. For carbine classes or duty id probably start at a 6920 or go up from there.

Back then in 04, much was made of the TDS and "Mil spec". I was actually lied to and told that my Olympic was "mil spec" when I bought it. I was a dumb kid sure, but in my defense, back then the internet was in its infancy, and mostly slow dial up amd certainly not on a cellular phone. And I knew nobody with an AR even though most I shot with were LE. They were just that uncommon and quite unpopular. Lying A-holes are still in buisness too. Lol. But I still like that sorry olympic.... I hold no grudge even though they flat lied.

 

[2ndtimer]

Here are is my small collection of AR’s:

The one on the right was my first, an original S&W M&P 15 Sport, with the 1 in 8” twist 5R barrel, but no dust cover or forward assist. I replaced the original furniture with Magpul rare earth. It is the second most accurate of the 4. The one on the left is my factory original Stag Model 6, which my late friend ordered for me at wholesale cost, that 24” heavy barrel 1 in 8” twist is by far my most accurate (and heavy!). The A2 version next to the Stag Model 6 was built for me by my son, using an Anderson stripped lower and a Stag rifle kit. It has a 20” 1 in 9” twist barrel and so so accuracy. The one next to the Sport is a complete PSA upper with 18” 1 in 7” twist barrel that I attached to a complete PSA lower ( a “build” that even I could assemble). I was hoping for better accuracy, given its’ .223 Wylde chamber and free floating fore end, but alas, it competes with the A2 version for 4th place in accuracy.
My advice to the OP: A decent AR can be had for under $600, and a PSA complete lower can be snapped onto a PSA complete upper for less than $500. Which leaves a nice amount of cash leftover for optics, mount, and ammo. When I bought my Stag, my son ordered an identical model. Mine outshot his consistently. His wasn’t bad, it was around MOA at 100 yards, usually just under. But mine was consistently .5 to .8 MOA, with identical ammo and handloads. He recently put together a “ghost gun” AR, with cheap PSA upper and lower parts kit, and it shoots as well as my PSA and Stag A2. I think has about $300 in it.
A S&W Sport II or Ruger AR 556 should work fine for your first. A PSA also would be fine for starting out. Chances are, you won’t stop at just one.

 

[Megawatt maker]

n













no sharp edges on my PSA.

C158 bolt too

Magpul furniture too!





All this came with the build kit...I've only added the scope on mounts so far..I did add the Magpul single attachment point...that didn't come with the kit..but the rest all did. This wasn't the entry level kit, it was a higher end kit that was on special. But still...its was pretty dang cheap!

But I do concede...PSA kits come with bare minimum, crappy, but still functional charging handles...that are made out of lesser grade aluminum (6075). That is a relatively cheap and easy thing to upgrade.

 

[Megawatt maker]

PSA brand grip on another build

came with a pretty decent buttstock as well.

 

[Megawatt maker]

In the interests of fairness and full disclosure...this was a complete PSA rifle I bought on special. I have to admit, I was a little underwhelmed after I shot the first 20 rounds out of it. The handguard, flash hider, and buffer tube lock nut all worked loose. All very easy fixes, but it was still a failure in QC in PSAs part. Far as performance goes...it keeps up in the accuracy depth with my M1As, but it in all Temps (so far, bought in early spring, will see how it does in winter weather soon), unlike the M1As that drift zero with changes in Temp. It also choked a few times until it broke in a bit...

Its also not an AR-15....Its a G3-10 (PSAs version of a AR-10) It also does have a sharp edge on the handguard...which can, will, and HAS got me when I got careless.

 

[misser]

In the interests of fairness and full disclosure...this was a complete PSA rifle I bought on special. I have to admit, I was a little underwhelmed after I shot the first 20 rounds out of it. The handguard, flash hider, and buffer tube lock nut all worked loose. All very easy fixes, but it was still a failure in QC in PSAs part. Far as performance goes...it keeps up in the accuracy depth with my M1As, but it in all Temps (so far, bought in early spring, will see how it does in winter weather soon), unlike the M1As that drift zero with changes in Temp. It also choked a few times until it broke in a bit...

Its also not an AR-15....Its a G3-10 (PSAs version of a AR-10) It also does have a sharp edge on the handguard...which can, will, and HAS got me when I got careless.View attachment 1043108

with the scope set that low i would never be able to see through it

 

[Megawatt maker]

with the scope set that low i would never be able to see through it

They are Warne MSR rings..extra high. I like to use a brass catcher on my semis (I hate chasing brass, and these days, leaving it lay isn't an option), so I kinda forced to use rings instead of a higher mount..as it doesn't enough room for the brass catcher mount.

 

[Megawatt maker]

Just got back from the range. Windy day...still not bad for 400 yards.

 

[Anchorite]

The complete PSA models seem like a hell of a bargain.