scope/glass for medium and under target shooting

[B.Baley]

Hi All,
I recently posted a thread regarding a caliber choice to build multiple rifles that were the "same" for when friends, kids, whomever shows up to shoot. I received great info and ideas on that thread.

Now, I am on the hunt for glass.

Up until now, my best and favorite scope has been the VortexViper PST Gen I 6-24 - for the money. Meaning that has been the best I have been able to afford so far. I have Burris, Bushnell Elite, Vortex and Leupold also on various rifles of a varying quality.

So, relevant to the other thread/project - I am looking for a scope that is good for;
1) great glass first and foremost (wide range of user eyes/age, etc and also light (old people and young))
2) target shooting from100 to 300 yards typical but up to 600 possible

As good as the Viper PST was, I still felt the eye relief was just plain finicky or of a very small range - and arguably this was a very wide range scope (6-24)

I am wondering if maybe one of the fixed magnification scopes with high quality glass is a better option?
IOR Valdata in 10x or something similar

All of the fixed power "target scopes" tend to be around 36x - which seems way out of line with 100yd-300yd target work. Also, objective sizes for fixed power seem small on the average.

It seems the hardest thing to find is something that has "great glass"/light - and also an eye relief that will support "us old guys" and the younger eyes.

what would you buy for $1500 or so ?
fixed or variable ?
what has proven easiest to use for you oder farts like me with cr@p for eyes ?

 

[B.Baley]

I should elaborate more maybe...
- I am willing to sacrifice fancy stuff (huge variable lens adj like 6-24, etc) for quality glass and eye relief
- the range just needs to be usable under 300yds typical - but usable by a wide range of "users" (eyesight, LOP, light conditions, etc)

not sure if that makes sense...

 

[B.Baley]

for instance - in fixed what about this:
https://sightronusa.com/index.php/product/siii10x42mmd/

 

[jmr40]

You don't need more than 7X-9X magnification to do anything you listed. You can buy 3 very good scopes that will do what you want to do with a $1500 budget... Scopes with more X's are HEAVY and have much less eye relief and are harder to use... You don't need a front objective greater than 40mm, in fact a much smaller front objective works just fine in good light. The big objectives add 2-3 minutes of hunting time at dawn and dusk for hunters.

 

[Allen One1]

SWFA fixed 10 power. It's worth a look.

 

[Newtosavage]

Leupold.

I'm not a "name brand" guy but I've learned the hard way (meaning - wasted a lot of $ on cheaper stuff) that Leupold has the reputation it does for a reason.

 

[someguy2800]

I would be looking at 4-12 or 4-16 at the most. I got rid of all the over 20x scopes I've ever had because they are so impractical. You can buy 3 or 4 really nice scopes for $1500. I can shoot 1-1/2" groups with a 20 year old 4x pistol scope on a contender pistol.

 

[someguy2800]

Leupold.

I'm not a "name brand" guy but I've learned the hard way (meaning - wasted a lot of $ on cheaper stuff) that Leupold has the reputation it does for a reason.

I'm a newcomer to leupold but I've come to the same realization. The glass is just great and the eye relief and pupil size is the most forgiving of anything I've ever used.

 

[Newtosavage]

Exactly. Not to mention the weight savings.

 

[JD Pinardi]

Just put leupold VX-2 3x9x40 on a 30-06 great sight picture, and I'm 61, way below your $1500 amount.
JD

 

[B.Baley]

Just put leupold VX-2 3x9x40 on a 30-06 great sight picture, and I'm 61, way below your $1500 amount.
JD

I have two Leupold's - one is a VX-2 4-12xx50 CDS on my .270 hunting rifle. I do really like that one - great in low light which is why I bought it for hunting. not sure the reticle is what I would want for target but worth reviewing and considering.

 

[B.Baley]

I would be looking at 4-12 or 4-16 at the most. I got rid of all the over 20x scopes I've ever had because they are so impractical. You can buy 3 or 4 really nice scopes for $1500. I can shoot 1-1/2" groups with a 20 year old 4x pistol scope on a contender pistol.

You don't need more than 7X-9X magnification to do anything you listed. You can buy 3 very good scopes that will do what you want to do with a $1500 budget... Scopes with more X's are HEAVY and have much less eye relief and are harder to use... You don't need a front objective greater than 40mm, in fact a much smaller front objective works just fine in good light. The big objectives add 2-3 minutes of hunting time at dawn and dusk for hunters.

I agree with you on the 40mm objective. most target shooting I would do would be inside "good light" hours.
Also on the 10x - that is why I was considering fixed 10x options with great glass as opposed to variable

 

[someguy2800]

A fixed 10 would be fine if the range is always going to be 100+ yards on a bench but I think it would be much less desirable if you ever shoot at anything shorter range or to do any short range plinking or offhand shooting. I really like to dial down quite a bit more than that for that kind of shooting. One thing I've found is that the lower magnification a scope is, the less critical the glass quality is. I have lots of $150-$300 scopes in the 3-9 to 4-12 range and the glass quality on all of them are good to me. I even have some sub $100 scopes that are just fine. However once up in the 18, 20, 24 power range I can't look through any of the cheaper scopes for any amount of time without my eyes bugging out. I've had a couple expensive ones that didn't bother me but they were worth enough money that I sold them after I finally figured out I didn't shoot any better with a 24 than a 16. I guess my thinking is that if your not going to be looking through these scopes for hours at a time just get some nice midrange scopes like a VX1 or 2, Nikon prostaff, redfield, bushnell 3500, or a fixed 10 if you choose to go that route and use the saving to buy ammo or even another fun gun for your shooting guests.

 

[Bfh_auto]

Vortex diamondback, Nikon Prostaff, or Bushnell banner are about as high as I will go. I only shoot to 450yds because my property isn't clear past that. I prefer 4-12x40. It is a good trade-off. Reticle thickness on Prostaff is enough to cause about 2 inches vertical at 400.

 

[Klint Beastwood]

A fixed 10 would be fine if the range is always going to be 100+ yards on a bench but I think it would be much less desirable if you ever shoot at anything shorter range or to do any short range plinking or offhand shooting. .

Snipers and DM's were using inertial 10x just fine beyond 100y 100% of the time. (Before the PM2's and Premiers)
Although being able to lower and increase magnification makes tracking targets a lot easier, just saying, its possible with a fixed 10.

 

[ms6852]

I do a lot of long range shooting when I go home to visit my parents and brothers in West Texas. Mirage and haze always seems to be a problem and to this date I have yet shoot at targets beyond 500 yards using no more than 7X. Beyond that power my targets have a tendency to disappear and re-appear as distance increase. During hunting season it is not a problem as it is not hot and the extra power on my scope is mainly used to identify the deer vs a doe and to see how many points it has, unless I have my spotting scope.

But I would recommend Trijicon.https://www.midwayusa.com/product/8...inated-mil-dot-crosshair-with-green-dot-matte

 

[someguy2800]

Snipers and DM's were using inertial 10x just fine beyond 100y 100% of the time. (Before the PM2's and Premiers)
Although being able to lower and increase magnification makes tracking targets a lot easier, just saying, its possible with a fixed 10.

Oh no doubt it works, note that I said I think its decent if the range is always 100 yards or more, its the under 100 yard shooting or on anything that is moving where I think its too much magnification, at least for my preference. My father in law has a couple fixed power external adjustment unertl's from the 40's on his smallbore rifles. Neat setup to play with.

 

[Skylerbone]

Whatever you decide on make certain it has enough internal adjustment for the drop to 600 in your caliber with the intended load. If buying a mount with elevation built in, make sure it also allows for those closer shots at 100. I mention this because most of the above recommendations are 1" main tube rather than 30mm (which doesn't always guarantee more elevation), just keep it in mind.

I would also agree that $1,500 is a pile of money to be throwing at a scope for your intended purposes. Can I ask what sort of target you might like to shoot at 600? Scoring, gong/steel plate, full silhouette? Anything special you want in the reticle?

 

[Gordon]

What you are looking for is a different kind of optic quality , not so much a power range. A Nightforce SHV 4-14 will shock you how much better it is than a PST and costs $1300 http://www.cabelas.com/product/NIGH...s?productVariantId=4650317&WT.tsrc=PPC&WT.mc_
Also for about the same $ a Zeiss HD5 Conquest variable 3-15x42 costs about $700 and is head and shoulders optically than a Vortex PST. it is what I chose for my go to hunting rifle in .308 It is right up there with the $2000 dollar scopes in brightness and sharpness IMHO and very light and trim .
https://www.eurooptic.com/zeiss-scopes-conquest-hd5.aspx

 

[BWS]

Lots of good scopes available these days,just for some informal target work and maybe some varmint action?

VX3 4.5-14x40..... just a nice easy to live with scope.Will always have decent resale but,you'll always have a rig that can utilize it.Not too nice that it can't be drug around hunting.

 

[Picher]

I have several VX2 3-9X scopes that are wonderfully clear, bright and fantastically accurate. They're set for 200 yard parallax-free, but you can send them to the factory and have it re-set to whatever you want for free. Leupold has a lifetime guarantee.

Another great scope for about the same money is made by Zeiss.

I also have a Mueller 4.5-14X that cost about $150 and it's got an adjustable objective...really great for the money.

Do a Google search to find the best current prices on any scope you want to buy. You can usually get free shipping from many companies.

JP

 

[eastbank]

the leupold 4.5x14 SF 30mm tube with cds works well on this rem 700 .300 win mag, even in low light. its a heavy rig to drag around, but once you get there its a fine shooter. eastbank.

 

[redneck2]

This probably should be in the Optics forum

Anyway, I've got an ultra accurate CZ .22 that I use for target. I have a friend from Chicago whose boys love to shoot but rarely get the chance. I let them use the CZ and they love it. Hitting a 2" steel target at 100 yards is pretty routine even with Federal Auto Match, a bulk ammo. Hard enough to be challenging, but attainable enough to be rewarding

Anyway, it's got a 4-14x40 VX-3. Excellent eye relief, super clear. Wouldn't change a thing. It's pretty easy to see bullet holes at 100 yards, particularly with Shoot-n-See targets.

 

[Newtosavage]

Vortex diamondback, Nikon Prostaff, or Bushnell banner are about as high as I will go. I only shoot to 450yds because my property isn't clear past that. I prefer 4-12x40. It is a good trade-off. Reticle thickness on Prostaff is enough to cause about 2 inches vertical at 400.

I used to be the same way. If you are patient, Leupold VX-1 scopes are often on sale for the same amount as Vortex Diamondbacks and Nikon Prostaffs, and they weigh 30-40% less with as good or better optics.

 

[Varminterror]

You're likely on a quest which is doomed to be fruitless, as a scope alone can't really make a rifle fit all shooters. Since you're wanting to have rifles which will be able to universally fit different shooters, in my experience in pursuing the same goal for my loaner rifles as an instructor, then I would say your best investment you could make would be in adjustable stocks and QD rings on picatinny bases. Kids will have short pulls, short necks, and short faces, so they need a higher comb height and a shorter pull than an adult shooter. Having a forgiving eye box does help, but it really doesn't take much to be able to adapt the rifles to the shooters - it's a matter of seconds. Most shooters can adapt to the eye relief by adjusting their LOP to get their face on the stock in the right place, even if their arm is a little more or little less bent than ideal, but sliding the QD rings forward or backwards on the rail does help adapt to REALLY extremely different body types, and it doesn't usually shift the POI enough to require more than a click or two to bring the scope back to zero. Young kids don't typically understand what the scope should look like, so I keep flash cards with shadow errors and a correct scope picture, as well as a small ruler in my range bag to let me put them on the stock, then position the optic at least in the ballpark of where it should be. Two levers and a couple knobs, the rig can fit anyone.

If a guy is wanting to shoot golf balls or pennies with the kids, then having a bit more magnification is nice. If you're just shooting pie plates, any scope is likely too much scope. Since you're talking 300-600yrds, really think about the targets you have available. There's a reason most standard targets are 4-6" or larger, meant to be shot at 100yrds - it gives an appropriate scale where placing your POI is easier. If you're shooting at 600yrds, a 10" target is the visual equivalent of shooting a golf-ball at 100yrds - not very forgiving. At 600, I typically start with a pair of 3 target racks for my beginners - a 24", 18", and then a 12x20" 66% IPSC on one, a 12" circle, 8", and 6" circle on the other. Usually, the entire second rack is safe and remains untouched, certainly the 6" gong, and the larger targets will have something like 6-9" groups printed on them. The aiming black on the MR-1 600yrd target used for Highpower/CMP matches is 36" diameter, on a 60" white 5 ring - of course, these are meant to give aiming reference to iron sight shooters, sitting the black on top of the front sight post, but the scores really haven't skyrocketed now that 1-4.5x optics are allowed. In other words, be sure to give yourself, or rather your friends and your kids, enough target to really make a run at it.

Snipers and DM's were using inertial 10x just fine beyond 100y 100% of the time. (Before the PM2's and Premiers)

In fairness, recall these guys are shooting at torsos, not at golf balls. As I've eluded above, it's not uncommon for shooters to be able to print a smaller group on a large target than the size of target they could actually hit, in other words (since that sounds ridiculous), a guy can hang a 24" target at 1,000yrds and print a 12" group in the middle, but the 16" target right beside it will induce a boatload of misses. Hitting a deer in the heart at 600yrds is easier than hitting a prairie dog. It's all point-of-aim-reference - hitting the center of something big is far easier than hitting something small. A dozen or so buddies and I used to do an "egg shoot" copied from the PredatorMasters Convention Egg-shoot, a Grade A Large Egg is about 1.7" across by 2.2" tall, glued to golf tee's, seated in a target rack, so firing at 150yrds, you're talking a hair over 1MOA. Any of these guys and their rifles can print a sub-moa group on larger targets, most of them in the .5-.6moa ballpark, but hitting a target which is about the same size as your group is an entirely different game. Guys print sub-moa groups on my big steel all of the time, myself included, but the game is completely different when the target shrinks.

Unertl is a hard one to sneak past autocorrect, drives me nuts when "inertial" drops in, since not enough folks are familiar with Unertl to make the re-correct back in their head.