Scout rifle proliferation

[Charlie98]

Too short to spend money on for 308. I could see if you were 5'5" or 5'8" but it looks and feels toyish and silly on a six foot plus. Never mind giving up ballistics.

But you aren't looking at the whole picture... a short-barreled rifle is proper when used within it's operating range, so to speak. I'm not lining up at Camp Perry with my Socom16... it's not meant for that, and the .308 inside 300yd, for example, gives up very little in terminal ballistics to a 20"+ barrel.

I'm 6'2", BTW, and I'm not sure what that has to do with anything, nor is my Socom16 a toy...

 

[Steve762us]

Sounds like you mean a scout sniper, not just a scout. And he has the advantage of having a bunch of guys with the modern scout rifle, the M-4 carbine, in his squad.

Right...in scout/non-sniper role, having something 'carryable' AND capable of putting out a high rate of suppressive fire,
to facilitate breaking contact, is what scouts would want---anything *but* a bolt gun.

 

[fireside44]

I'm 6'2", BTW, and I'm not sure what that has to do with anything, nor is my Socom16 a toy...

A 6'2" man isn't gonna suffer in the brush with 2-4" inches of extra barrel. I know because I'm 6'3" and the TX hill country woods out back my place is an overgrown cedar thicket. The SOCOM was Springfield trying to cash in on the tactical craze because otherwise the M1A is quickly becoming a korean era collectible for well to do old guys. It is definitely the most toy like and fun gun like of the M1A line. A 16" barrel on a 308 is too far from optimum IMO but it's a great choice for the tactical minded mini me's out there and for marketing M-4 dudes a different gun, just like the Savage scout rifles are all threaded-for-suppressor-too-short barrels that look silly. Nice youth rifle, lol. Like all the design choices were made by a junior gunsmith who has never used anything but an M4. All of the new scout labeled rifles seem to be designed around that M.O.

 

[Jgjgjg]

When the steyr version came out, I was one of the early takers. Though I have a number of semi and bolt guns, this is the one that I find myself gravitating to. Unlike others here, the scope is a real draw for me—for what I do, it’s perfect.

I got charged once by a herd of porkasaurus, and afterwards was glad I had a slug loaded Benelli. That’s a pro semi argument.

On the whole though, the scope placement, light weight, and ergonomics win for me. That said, a Keltech RFB with 20” barrel, upgraded accuracy and. Reliability with a scout scope might be a replacement for me if swapping some steel for polymer could trim weight.

 

[Pudge]

A 6'2" man isn't gonna suffer in the brush with 2-4" inches of extra barrel. I know because I'm 6'3" and the TX hill country woods out back my place is an overgrown cedar thicket. The SOCOM was Springfield trying to cash in on the tactical craze because otherwise the M1A is quickly becoming a korean era collectible for well to do old guys. It is definitely the most toy like and fun gun like of the M1A line. A 16" barrel on a 308 is too far from optimum IMO but it's a great choice for the tactical minded mini me's out there and for marketing M-4 dudes a different gun, just like the Savage scout rifles are all threaded-for-suppressor-too-short barrels that look silly. Nice youth rifle, lol. Like all the design choices were made by a junior gunsmith who has never used anything but an M4. All of the new scout labeled rifles seem to be designed around that M.O.

Sure, a 6'2" man isn't going to suffer with 2" to 4" extra inches of barrel, but will the target notice the 50 to 100 fps in lost velocity? (According to: https://rifleshooter.com/2014/12/30...ato-barrel-length-versus-velocity-28-to-16-5/ you lose 20 to 25 fps per inch). I haven't hunted in Texas, but in Pennsylvania, barrel length hasn't ever been a factor for me (I mean I've never wished for a longer heavier rifle while hunting). Nothing wrong with AR's, but a light, compact, accurate, versatile, handy bolt rifle is a thing of beauty. If you want a longer barrel, or think it likely that you'll be defending yourself with a rifle against multiple attackers that's fine. They make both chocolate and vanilla for a reason, but if you shared my experiences and were planning to share my future, a scout rifle would have legitimate appeal.

 

[Charlie98]

A 6'2" man isn't gonna suffer in the brush with 2-4" inches of extra barrel. I know because I'm 6'3" and the TX hill country woods out back my place is an overgrown cedar thicket. The SOCOM was Springfield trying to cash in on the tactical craze because otherwise the M1A is quickly becoming a korean era collectible for well to do old guys. It is definitely the most toy like and fun gun like of the M1A line. A 16" barrel on a 308 is too far from optimum IMO but it's a great choice for the tactical minded mini me's out there and for marketing M-4 dudes a different gun, just like the Savage scout rifles are all threaded-for-suppressor-too-short barrels that look silly. Nice youth rifle, lol. Like all the design choices were made by a junior gunsmith who has never used anything but an M4. All of the new scout labeled rifles seem to be designed around that M.O.

Well, again, you are missing the point... but that’s cool, you tell yourself what you need to hear.

 

[Space Ghost]

[QUOTE="Pudge, post: 11235571, member: 186511They make both chocolate and vanilla for a reason[/QUOTE]

That about sums it up...

 

[fireside44]

Sure, a 6'2" man isn't going to suffer with 2" to 4" extra inches of barrel, but will the target notice the 50 to 100 fps in lost velocity?

Will it notice 200fps lost velocity? 300? 400? Where do you stop? Why pay the same and get less when a slightly longer, more sensible barrel length for the caliber won't affect handling. Short of suppression or being a very short person or a child why take an 16 over a 18 or 20? The short barrel trend is perfect for the manufacturer, sell less barrel with a few threads at the end at the same or higher price, marketed as tactical.

As a big bolt Savage fan, I can't help but notice ten to fifteen years ago just about every Savage rifle had a ideal length barrel for caliber and purpose. Now almost every rifle they make seems 2" or more under ideal length for caliber. 300 win mags in 24", 308's in 22" and 20". All the 112's in .300 win mag and 7mm mag were 26". Not any more. I can find two 7mm mags offered in 26" out of all their centerfires. Even the Savage scout went from 20" to 18" to the current Gary Coleman sized 16" youth rifle it is today. Why not a Spud Webb sig model in 14.5 with a fixed muzzle brake?

 

[Pudge]

Will it notice 200fps lost velocity? 300? 400? Where do you stop? Why pay the same and get less when a slightly longer, more sensible barrel length for the caliber won't affect handling. Short of suppression or being a very short person or a child why take an 16 over a 18 or 20? The short barrel trend is perfect for the manufacturer, sell less barrel with a few threads at the end at the same or higher price, marketed as tactical.

As a big bolt Savage fan, I can't help but notice ten to fifteen years ago just about every Savage rifle had a ideal length barrel for caliber and purpose. Now almost every rifle they make seems 2" or more under ideal length for caliber. 300 win mags in 24", 308's in 22" and 20". All the 112's in .300 win mag and 7mm mag were 26". Not any more. I can find two 7mm mags offered in 26" out of all their centerfires. Even the Savage scout went from 20" to 18" to the current Gary Coleman sized 16" youth rifle it is today. Why not a Spud Webb sig model in 14.5 with a fixed muzzle brake?

If you're losing 400fps, at 25fps per inch, I would argue that 16 inches is not a slight difference in barrel length, and that it does affect handling, especially in a hunting arm. 200fps would be 8 inches, also a significant increase in barrel length to me. Use what you like, your preferences don't bother me and I'm not trying to talk you out of what you shoot, but the 100fps loss from 20"-16" is not a deal breaker for me.

 

[Charlie98]

As a big bolt Savage fan,

Funny you should mention that... as I have a 24" Savage bolt in .308. I load 2 different .308 cartridges... each tailored to it's barrel length and purpose. It's magical. Oddly enough, since you seem obsessed with the whole 'tactical' thing... the Savage has that retarded 'tacticool' bolt knob... about the size of a soup can.

 

[fireside44]

Funny you should mention that... as I have a 24" Savage bolt in .308. I load 2 different .308 cartridges... each tailored to it's barrel length and purpose. It's magical. Oddly enough, since you seem obsessed with the whole 'tactical' thing... the Savage has that retarded 'tacticool' bolt knob... about the size of a soup can.

I'm happy you are pleased by their offerings.

Tactical is relating to things carefully designed to get a specific military end, according to my online dictionary here. True tactical in a Scout rifle then would be an 18-20" barrel. Short enough for plenty of handling ease for anyone taller than a hobbit without sacrificing all the ballistics you can legally sacrifice to a short barrel. It's all marketing so I suppose it makes good business sense. M-4 length and threaded for a suppressor. Tactical marketing.

Every inch you take off the barrel of a .308/7.62x51 past 18 or 20 inches becomes an extra reason you should've just gotten a x39 when you start crunching all the numbers. I'm not obsessed, I'm irritated that I go browsing Savage bolts and all of them have less barrel than offered in the past. My complaint is the same sort of complaint I harbor against their "regular" length barrel. It's a joke to me that most of the magnum caliber models are being offered in 24" barrels instead of the previous 26" until I realize their target market has become dudes coming of age during Obama era guns i.e AR-15 gun grab buying craze who maybe don't know any better. The hobbit rifle will be be their first bolt action. They are the tactical obsessed guys Savage is selling too. Right now my only selection for a 26" heavy barrel 7mm mag has a tree camo stock and a brown finish and costs more money because of the clown colors. Maybe in a few more years they will come to their senses.

 

[Sistema1927]

And just like that, another thread died.

 

[LoonWulf]

I'm happy you are pleased by their offerings.

Tactical is relating to things carefully designed to get a specific military end, according to my online dictionary here. True tactical in a Scout rifle then would be an 18-20" barrel. Short enough for plenty of handling ease for anyone taller than a hobbit without sacrificing all the ballistics you can legally sacrifice to a short barrel. It's all marketing so I suppose it makes good business sense. M-4 length and threaded for a suppressor. Tactical marketing.

Every inch you take off the barrel of a .308/7.62x51 past 18 or 20 inches becomes an extra reason you should've just gotten a x39 when you start crunching all the numbers. I'm not obsessed, I'm irritated that I go browsing Savage bolts and all of them have less barrel than offered in the past. My complaint is the same sort of complaint I harbor against their "regular" length barrel. It's a joke to me that most of the magnum caliber models are being offered in 24" barrels instead of the previous 26" until I realize their target market has become dudes coming of age during Obama era guns i.e AR-15 gun grab buying craze who maybe don't know any better. The hobbit rifle will be be their first bolt action. They are the tactical obsessed guys Savage is selling too. Right now my only selection for a 26" heavy barrel 7mm mag has a tree camo stock and a brown finish and costs more money because of the clown colors. Maybe in a few more years they will come to their senses.

Savages "standard" barrel lengths have been 22" and 24" for some time, longer than I've been shooting.
while perhaps not industry "standard" I think those numbers have been pretty common since 50-60-70? Most of the guns I've seen from the 70s have 22" or 24" tubes.

I personally like longer tubes, and 22 is about as short as I'll go willingly on most cartridges.

 

[boom boom]

The idea of suppressive fire is inappropriate outside of a military, gaming, fictional books, or cinematic contexts as it is not one of those things supported by the legal system. In that context you must have legitimate self defense concerns which makes idea of a) long range sniping b) suppressive fire c) full auto d) shooting at someone absent clear signs of threatening behavior. All of this things are legal under the rules of war but not in a civilian world and for good reason. Think of every bullet that you fire in such a situation will require the services of a lawyer. Juries of your peers would not find the idea of someone firing bullets at someone to discourage them from advancing/disrupting their plans or the pave the way for your advance on an objective as legitimate self defense. If warning shots are considered illegal uses of force under the law, then certainly suppressive fire would be.

Similarly, if someone is multiple football fields away from you, the prudent thing is the escape and evade rather than engage because at that distance, it would be difficult if not impossible to persuade a jury that your use of a Barrett 50 was appropriate in "taking out the threat". The key would is an objective reasonable application of force to prevent death or serious injury that is required by self defense laws.

Col. Cooper's idea was that a solitary person or a few such individuals, caught in a situation that might require deadly force and/or foraging for food and without a lengthy logistical tail or defense of an redoubt would be best served by markmanship and a easy to carry rifle that is good enough to dissuade folks from attacking and to gather game as needed. Remember that for a great deal of his life, the threat of nuclear war was present that might have resulted in just that scenario. For him, that was a bolt action of a particular type and weight.

There is a reason that the THR discourages shinola hits the fan type posts as what is appropriate for the military or a zombie invasion is not for the civilian. In a state of anarchy, no laws apply outside of might makes right, and thus everything is on the table. That is less than useful for about 99.9 percent of the human experience outside of places like Lebanon, Syria, Somalia, Yemen, Afghanistan, Iraq, etc. during their civil wars and even there, your tribe/social group chieftain calls the shots more or less. Thus, 99.9 percent of the time, you will be explaining your actions to law enforcement, a prosecutor, and maybe a judge and jury. Be prudent in your planning and preparation for likely problems applicable to your context rather than the apocalypse.

 

[fireside44]

Savages "standard" barrel lengths have been 22" and 24" for some time, longer than I've been shooting.

Maybe the 110 series? In the late 90's/early 2000's they were offering dual pillar bedded 112 long action FVSS and BVSS in 26" magnum calibers, synthetic and laminate stocks, heavy fluted and unfluted barrels, stainless and blued as part of their standard offerings.

They've completely folded the 112, only the 12 short action series remain and they are mostly heavy stocked target, varmint, and benchrest models and the largest caliber is .308 win and Palma.

I'd scoop up a 110 with a heavy 26" barrel in 7mm or 300 win mag with the new accustock in a heartbeat if it was an offering because the stock is vastly improved over the previous fvss synthetic stock. Awesome factory offering. I'd scoop up a new Scout since it has the nicest stock and features of all the Savage scouts yet unfortunately the least ideal barrel length of the 3 scouts Savage has produced so it's a deal breaker for me too.

 

[LoonWulf]

Maybe the 110 series? In the late 90's/early 2000's they were offering dual pillar bedded 112 long action FVSS and BVSS in 26" magnum calibers, synthetic and laminate stocks, heavy fluted and unfluted barrels, stainless and blued as part of their standard offerings.

They've completely folded the 112, only the 12 short action series remain and they are mostly heavy stocked target, varmint, and benchrest models and the largest caliber is .308 win and Palma.

I'd scoop up a 110 with a heavy 26" barrel in 7mm or 300 win mag with the new accustock in a heartbeat if it was an offering because the stock is vastly improved over the previous fvss synthetic stock. Awesome factory offering. I'd scoop up a new Scout since it has the nicest stock and features of all the Savage scouts yet unfortunately the least ideal barrel length of the 3 scouts Savage has produced so it's a deal breaker for me too.

Yeah the 112s were replaced by the target actions, and specially long range rigs, I THINK you can still get some of those with 26" tubes, but don't quote me on that, haven't looked at savages in a while.