Self Defense Scenario - what say you?

[bgrav321]

I was thinking the other day about something that perhaps isn't too far fetched. My most sincere apologies if this has been repeatedly discussed, I'm sure the wonderful mods on this board will remove it if this is the case.

Scenario: You are at a gas station late at night. Your car is parked outside, and you are inside the store use the restroom. It's 2:00 in the morning. You begin to step out of the bathroom, and there are two perps in the building. One has a PGO shotgun pointing at the cashier who has his hands raised, and is demanding money, cursing, and yelling. The second perp has a glock and is scanning the inside of the store and outside.

You are armed with the handgun of your choice and an extra mag. You have not competely exited the bathroom yet, and the x-rays are as yet unaware of your presence, although you may have precious few seconds left of surprise on your side. Aside from the cashier and the BGs, you are the only other person in the building. You have only a few seconds to decide your move, if you make a move at all.

What is your course of action? A few factors that cross my mind are

1) The cashier is being threatened with deadly force (PGO shotgun pointed at him).
2) You are not yet in immediate danger, meaning you could possibly sit it out in the bathroom, but they may check it because they may have noticed your car.
3) 911 is not an option AS FAR AS SAVING A LIFE, meaning if they shoot the cashier, the police won't save them. I am not saying don't call the police. But if you sit in there, they'll be long gone and the cashier may have a load of 00 in the chest.
4) The cashier may have a gun hidden, and may be waiting for the opportune moment. But you cannot possibly know this before you act, if you act.

It's interesting to think about. What say you?

 

[Red Cent]

How accomplished can I be in this movie?

 

[oldfool]

I think it is a practical enough scenario
I don't know what I really would do
but I know what I would advise

Unless you are an LEO, you park your butt out of sight and hope for the best
that gun you carry is for self defense, it does not make you a cop
tragic as the results might turn out, you cannot control that, you just have to live with the consequences of the choices you make
(you intervention could just as well escalate violence as not, get somebody killed who otherwise might not, clairvoyance does not work, and 20/20 hindsight is irrelevant)
yes, of course, if you have a cell phone, call 911, hold phone in weak hand, hold pistol in strong hand

 

[hso]

Yes, it's been discussed in one version or the other repeatedly and no one that I recall claimed they'd ever been in been in this situation.

Some folks will say that in spite of the fact that civilians have no obligation to act like LE that they would engage the BGs from some moral obligation to fight evil. It will be pointed out that you can't effectively intervene from outside the store so there's nothing to be done to help the clerk.

Others will claim that the best thing to do is ready yourself to fight if the situation becomes more perilous to yourself. Others will include the clerk, but we return to the outside/inside problem.

Some will advise retreating to a safe position and be a good witness. Others will advise going to the car and moving it to a safe location. Some will suggest sounding the horn or otherwise notifying the BGs that they've been spotted and the crime probably called in.

Everyone will say to call 911 since there might be a car around the corner with a cop looking to make a 2am pit stop just like you.

 

[oldfool]

for me, it is not really about moral obligations or courage
you show yourself, gun and hand, and the guy w/ shotgun pointed at clerk responds by pulling the trigger... dead clerk

what would you tell yourself after that ?
you cannot CONTROL what they do, cannot predict what THEY will do, or the results of their actions

life is not fair
no shots having been fired, try not to prompt shots being fired

 

[cpallenjr]

what to do:

I agree "retreat to a safe position and be a good witness" Call 911 if you can, and make sure to convey to the 911 operator that you are inside the store and armed. Stay on the line with them and be ready to defend yourself if necessary. If you lock yourself into the bathroom be careful about what you do if/when someone tries to open the door.

Showing yourself could only change the bad guys plan and probably not in the clerk's favor. They would be unlikely to just surrender to you on sight, and the odds are against the clerk being armed and ready to jump into action at the slightest distraction are just as slim.

At this point it's only money. Any employee has already been instructed to be cooperative and hand over the contents of the cash register, which in today's world will never be more than just enough to make change. The 20's and 50's go straight into the safe.

If it makes you feel any better: when you hear gun fire erupting you could pop out of the bathroom and ambush the bad guys if they are retreating, and close off their escape out the back of the store. Hopefully the Police or clerk won't shoot you.

 

[357mag.]

I hide if I can,if not,I use my pistol to protect myself.It may sound cold to some,but I carry to defend myself and my loved ones.To much of a chance that things will go bad for the "good-guy"by getting involved in matters such as this.It is sad,but thats the way it is with the laws/so called justice system in this country.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

try not to prompt shots being fired

much wisdom here

 

[General Geoff]

Couldn't tell you what I'd do without being there. So many things come into play, including the nonverbal queues given off by the bad guys, where the cashier is in relation to the bad guys, clear line of sight to the bad guys, nearby cover such as a shelf full of rock salt or even a large display of soda (lots of liquid medium), many other unknowns that, while seemingly insignificant, all combine to determine the prudent course of action at that moment in time.

 

[sonier]

my question and all i need to know is in this scenario do i have the legal right to defend the cashiers life with deadly force?

 

[Averageman]

Wait.
Everything changes with time and every dog has his day.

 

[sidheshooter]

Ok, I'll play.

In the scenario, as described, with the perps presumably between me and the exit, I'd stay down, draw, and watch from as hidden a vantage point as I can without making a peep. If the shotgun is pointed at the clerk, this thing is more or less over already, unless your CCW is a .308 rifle with optics. Either the guys open up on the clerk, or they take the bag of cash and bolt. Regardless, verbally challenging an unstable armed with a shotgun when all I've got is a small pistol and a shelf of pop to my advantage is nuts.

Shooting the BG w/the shotty bears some discussion. The last class I took (recent) went into some detail about the work of Roger Enoka (neuromechanical expert big cheese) as it relates to shooting, and one example was much as described. The summary: if you shoot the BG, you've likely just shot the clerk as well. Obviously an undesirable outcome. Moreover, I was told that this knowledge is becoming part if the mood of the courts.

So, if I can't shoot until the clerk is already taking rounds, and I can't legally shoot when the BGs are fleeing with the loot (at the moment they break off, LF is no longer justified), and drawing attention away from clerk may also draw unwanted high velocity responses, I guess the prudent thing to do is very quickly come up to speed on how to make the world's best witness.

Lots of things could change that, of course; if one of the BGs starts coming my way to grab a bag of chips, if shooting has already started, or what not... but as set up, it looks like hunker down time to me.

just one opinion, FWIW.

 

[heron]

I've heard it said that the definition of a 'hero' is 'someone who gets other people killed.'

Stay out of sight, call 911, and wait.

 

[Deanimator]

1. Dial 911. It's not the job of the cops to protect individuals, but it IS their job to enforce the law. Armed robbery is against the law.
2. Remove myself from immediate view.
3. I don't intervene until there's shooting. If they start shooting, I shoot them until the threat is eliminated.

 

[Deanimator]

my question and all i need to know is in this scenario do i have the legal right to defend the cashiers life with deadly force?

In Ohio, you most certainly do.

If they're leaving, I let them leave. If they shoot the clerk, or look like they're about to, I do what's necessary.

 

[JoeSlomo]

As much as I hate criminals, given the situation as cited, I would be more concerned that any offensive action I took would place the clerk in greater jeopardy given the proximity of Mr. Shotgun to our friendly clerk.

I would hole up and watch at the restroom and intervene ONLY if the situation became more beneficial to do so, and less likely to result in injury to the clerk.

 

[IlikeSA]

I would likely sit this one out, given a choice. There is a disparity of force, as they outnumber me, have greater firepower than I, and possibly have more ammo. In addition, the tactical situation is of such where intervention will likely get myself or others killed.

 

[mljdeckard]

I agree with the bulk of what is being said here. I might drop ONE perp if I had him between me and the door, but two changes the plan.

Most incidents like this one end with no shots fired. I won't be the reason they WERE. I'm staying in the bathroom.

 

[uspJ]

In one of the other threads about a convenient store robbery I advocated using force when it was only one bg and he was armed with a handgun.

This seems like a can't win scenario to me. With two gunmen, one of which is scanning the interior/exterior and the other trained on the clerk any action you take would more than likely cause a loss of innocent life. You would definitely be undergunned and given the layout of most convenient stores you would have less than adequate cover, concealment.

If I were in this scenario I would most likely stay in the bathroom with my gun drawn and wait for them to leave and call 911.

.

 

[bgrav321]

Thanks so much all for the variety of views. As I envisioned it in my mind the element of suprise was all you had going for you. And the more I think about it the more I lean towards not doing anything. But then again I would feel awful if they shot the clerk on the way out. It would be especially hard with only seconds to decide.

 

[easyg]

for me, it is not really about moral obligations or courage
you show yourself, gun and hand, and the guy w/ shotgun pointed at clerk responds by pulling the trigger... dead clerk

what would you tell yourself after that ?
you cannot CONTROL what they do, cannot predict what THEY will do, or the results of their actions

life is not fair
no shots having been fired, try not to prompt shots being fired

+1.

Oldfool is no fool at all.

 

[foolsgold80z]

x 2 ^

 

[SSN Vet]

I suggest avoiding the entire situation by adapting a life style that doesn't put you in gas station bathrooms at 2 a.m.

Trust me, it can be done

 

[Seattleimport]

Step 1. Call 911.

Step 2. Retreat if possible. Hide in (locked) bathroom if retreat not possible.

Step 3. Defend self if necessary. In other words: shoot robbers if they come after you.

Not a step: transform into John McClane, charge in, shoot both robbers, rescue beautiful female clerk, receive invitation to secret special ops ninja force.

If it makes you feel any better: when you hear gun fire erupting you could pop out of the bathroom and ambush the bad guys if they are retreating, and close off their escape out the back of the store. Hopefully the Police or clerk won't shoot you.

This seems like the worst idea, as that gunfire might be between the bad guys and the (just-arrived) cops, who will be unpleasantly surprised by your sudden armed exit from the bathroom. In any event, the only thing worse than charging into a likely-to-be-gunfight is charging into an already-is-gunfight.

 

[foolsgold80z]

"I suggest avoiding the entire situation by adapting a life style that doesn't put you in gas station bathrooms at 2 a.m.

Trust me, it can be done"

Didn't immediately think of that. Well played.