Sellers shipping w/o "Adult Signature Required"

[Onward Allusion]

How many of you with a FFL or C&R had shipped or received firearms without tracking and/or Adult Signature Require?

I just received a C&R revolver and UPS just left it on my porch. Granted I live in a pretty good neighborhood, but I've still had packages lifted in the past. It got to the point that I have all my packages shipped to a UPS Store. Obviously a C&R or FFL item can only go to the holder's address so there wasn't anything I could have done. In the past, it has always been UPS, USPS, or FEDEX with tracking AND Adult Signature - not this guy however.

Who's liability is it if the package/gun gets swiped and it's used in a bad way?

 

[medalguy]

Both Fedex and UPS are SUPPOSED to get signatures on packages. However, this is the real world. I'm familiar with UPS. If someone picks up a package off your front porch, UPS is on the hook. The decision as to get a sig or not is up to the driver, but if a package doesn't arrive and you inquire, and they can't show a sig for any reason, they pay (if it was insured properly). I assume the same holds for Fedex.

If the firearm is misused you have absolutely no liability. You naver had the gun.

 

[browneu]

I sent a 1911s back to Colt and Kimber for repair. Each time the firearm was sent back and left on the porch. My father in law had Colt reblue a Python and UPS did the same thing with him. I think it happens more often than one would think. You'd have a claim but there's always the worry of your gun being in someone else's hand.

 

[chhodge69]

check out post #6 in this thread:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=616348&highlight=premises+address

Short version: says you can have a "premises address" and a separate "mailing address"

 

[Twiki357]

I've had a number of deliveries from UPS & FedEx. UPS has never wanted a signature. FedEx ALWAYs wants a signature.

 

[MtnCreek]

Was the package shipped Adult Signature Required? If you're not sure, enter your tracking number into the UPS site and it will tell you. If it was ASR’ed, UPS screwed up. If not, the shipper (seller) screwed up.

 

[mgmorden]

This boils down to 2 possible scenarios:

1. Did the shipper ship the package without adding on the Adult Signature requirement? If that's the case, the onus is on the shipper. Not only is it not wise, it's a violation of Federal law to ship a gun without a signature requirement.

2. Did the driver just leave the package and ignore the signature requirement. If so, then that's a problem with the driver (and by extension, the shipping company).

I'd contact whatever party screwed up and just mention the signature portion to them. Sometimes those drivers are just in too much of a hurry. Typically unless its a gun I don't mind them leaving something on the porch (I'm out in the sticks and have never had a package stolen - did have a dog get ahold of one though). That said, I'd still like them to ATTEMPT to deliver it in person. Had a few cases where I was off from work and I'd hear a quick knock at the door. By the time I got to the door the package was already sitting on the porch and the driver was getting back in the truck. Didn't even see if anyone was home - just knocked and left the package.

What I've done for my C&R is basically just let them make one delivery attempt, and then once I have their note I have them hold it at the office for pickup. Unless I'm off from work I'm not at home during delivery hours anyways. I will say that I like Fedex better in this regard is not only are they open a bit later (so that I can make a trip after work if need be), they also have Saturday hours. If I order a gun shipped UPS it's a given that I'm going to have to take some time off - if only an hour - to go get the blasted thing.

 

[Onward Allusion]

^^^

No, the package was not shipped with "Adult Signature Required". I'm guessing that some folks want to save a few bucks and ship standard UPS w/o "ASR" - which was the case with this revolver. Not surprising that the seller has been silent on my email inquiry.

 

[amd6547]

I ordered a case of 5.45 ammo which was shipped "adult sig required" via FedEx. I was home when it was delivered...In fact, I was sitting next to the front door and saw the truck pull up.
The driver huffed up to the porch with the case and left it there...never even knocked.

 

[wally]

This is a local issue, here my UPS guy is great, but he won't budge if a sig is required its required, but he does his best to come by as late as he can to catch my wife home. He'll also come around back and leave the packages protected on the enclosed patio.

OTOH our FedEx is terrible, signature required or not they just dump it by the front door, raining, no problem you'll get a wet package

 

[rellascout]

Did the shipper ship the package without adding on the Adult Signature requirement? If that's the case, the onus is on the shipper. Not only is it not wise, it's a violation of Federal law to ship a gun without a signature requirement.

I do not believe that this is true about it being a violation of federal law. It is a violation of the common carriers policies. You are required to notify the common carrier but the manner in which it is shipped is not designated.

Here is exactly what the ATF 'Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide' (ATF P 5300.4) says:

(B9) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by carrier?
A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by carrier to a resident of his or her own state or to a licensee in any state. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm. [18 U. S. C. 922( a)( 2)( A) and 922( e), 27 CFR 178.31]

*It is also my understanding that the part which I bolded is invalid. If you reasearch the citations not notifying the carrier does not violate federal law if you are shipping to a lic dealer. Shipping firearms out-of-state and to an unlicensed party (non-FFL) requires written notification to a common or contract carrier that a firearm is being shipped.

 

[vellocet]

Ive had about 15 guns delivered via UPS in the last three years or so and every one required a signature. A few days ago I got some ammo from those clowns at J+G and the guy had to come back because they require a signature for it and I was not home.

 

[mgmorden]

I do not believe that this is true about it being a violation of federal law. It is a violation of the common carriers policies. You are required to notify the common carrier but the manner in which it is shipped is not designated.

You are correct. Looking up the BATF laws I can find no reference to the signature requirement. I could have swore it was in the their requirements. My bad .

 

[dogtown tom]

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=ecfr&rgn=div5&view=text&node=27:3.0.1.2.3&idno=27#27:3.0.1.2.3.3.1.13

§ 478.31 Delivery by common or contract carrier.
(a) No person shall knowingly deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce to any person other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped: Provided, That any passenger who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or ammunition into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or operator of such common or contract carrier for the duration of that trip without violating any provision of this part.

(b) No common or contract carrier shall require or cause any label, tag, or other written notice to be placed on the outside of any package, luggage, or other container indicating that such package, luggage, or other container contains a firearm.

(c) No common or contract carrier shall transport or deliver in interstate or foreign commerce any firearm or ammunition with knowledge or reasonable cause to believe that the shipment, transportation, or receipt thereof would be in violation of any provision of this part: Provided, however, That the provisions of this paragraph shall not apply in respect to the transportation of firearms or ammunition in in-bond shipment under Customs laws and regulations.

(d) No common or contract carrier shall knowingly deliver in interstate or foreign commerce any firearm without obtaining written acknowledgement of receipt from the recipient of the package or other container in which there is a firearm: Provided, That this paragraph shall not apply with respect to the return of a firearm to a passenger who places firearms in the carrier's custody for the duration of the trip.

[33 FR 18555, Dec. 14, 1968. Redesignated at 40 FR 16385, Apr. 15, 1975, and amended by T.D. ATF–354, 59 FR 7112, Feb. 14, 1994; T.D. ATF–361, 60 FR 10786, Feb. 27, 1995]

 

[rellascout]

No common or contract carrier shall knowingly

That is the key. If it is not required to disclose and the package is not marked then how does the driver "knowingly" deliver without a signature?