Selling Firearms and Possible FFL loophole?

[Trebor]

Bobba Fett,

Look at it this way.

You *might* get away with your plan. What you intend to do might either be OK with the ATF or you might just "fly under their radar" in that they don't notice you to start a prosecution.

But, you might *not* get away with it. And, if you don't, you are facing a federal feloney, prison time, fines, and total loss of your firearms rights for your lifetime.

And, no matter what you believe, absolutely *no one* can give you an "It's OK to do this" answer that you can trust 100%.

No matter what the NRA says (if they even reply), no matter what a local attorney says, no matter what any random person on the internet says, the ONLY opinion that would matter is the ATF's opinion.

Looking at the regs most of here already think it's a bad idea. Unless you get an "OK" from the ATF itself, in writing, you shoudn't even go anywhere near your idea.

And, even if you get an OK from the ATF, in writing, that might not protect you. They always preserve their right to change their mind or claim that the letter answering your question does not accurately represent the law after all or that your question was phrased in such as way to make them answer it incorrectly, etc, etc.

There is no way for you to get that answer that says, "Yes, you can do this," that you can trust legally 100%.

With all the risks involved, are you sure you want to even think about doing this?

 

[Bubba613]

I would like to again reiterate that I am not suggesting in any way that someone do something illegal.

My purpose was to find out if there were a legal way to assemble and sell ARs without the need for a license.

The answer is no. You are doing this for profit, that makes you a manufacturer. You are trying to game the system to do something you obviously cannot do without proper licensing. I don't know why this needs more posts on the topic.

 

[freakshow10mm]

Since I am not planning to make a living selling firearms (I have a job and run my own side business), and part of my interest in building and selling a few rifles is so I can afford to add to my collection, and I enjoy assembling firearms, this seems to indicate that I may not need a license.

Notice it applies to dealers, not manufacturers. If you assemble for resale you are a manufacturer. Also, "making a living" also applies to part time gigs. It is the ATF's job to interpret that phrase, and the court may or may not agree with them.

You are making a grave error again and again. All the laws are subject to ATF interpretation of how to enforce it. They will arrest you. You will spend $100K in legal fees and court cases and might not win.

I am not planning on selling dozens a month. I'm not looking to run a firearms business. I'd just like to assemble a few from time to time for the fun of it and sell them at a slight profit so I can buy some more firearms.

That statement right there bolded means you should NOT get an FFL. You are not planning to run a business. The FFL is a business license. You will get your license pulled, face fines, possibly jail time depending on other factors/violations. Do not ruin it for the rest of us FFLs. If you are a **** up that makes us all look bad. I take enough heat from the ATF and everyone else for being a firearm manufacturer, I don't need any more flack.

Unless you are getting an 07 FFL do not do what you plan to do. It is illegal. The ATF, if they catch you, will take your ass to the ringer. Under Obama, it's a whole new ballgame.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Look up Brigadoon's Military Surplus in Oklahoma City and call them. They specifically got the "manufacturers" FFL license in order to put together AR-15 lowers and uppers that they bought separately. Their dealer FFL license did not cover the assembly of the lowers and uppers, so they had to add on the manufacturer's license.

 

[Boba Fett]

Posted by Trebor:
Unless you get an "OK" from the ATF itself, in writing, you shoudn't even go anywhere near your idea.
....
With all the risks involved, are you sure you want to even think about doing this?

Contacting the ATF is a good idea. Yes, I want to think about it; no I'm 99% sure I wont be able to.

posted by Bubba613:
You are trying to game the system to do something you obviously cannot do without proper licensing. I don't know why this needs more posts on the topic.

I'll say it again, I'm not looking to take risks or "game the system." That makes it sound like I'm trying to do something illegal and I am not.

I am simply trying to make sense of what the law says I can and cannot do. Why should spend the money for the state and federal requirements if I don't need to?

If I do need to have an FFL and pay the state fees, which most of the government documents I have read and what a lot of people here are indicating, then I need to save up for all the costs or get a small business loan (unlikely at this point in time ~_~ )

Posted by freakshow10mm:
Unless you are getting an 07 FFL do not do what you plan to do. It is illegal. The ATF, if they catch you, will take your ass to the ringer. Under Obama, it's a whole new ballgame.

Thanks freakshow10mm, don't worry, I won't. Again, the reason for my queries and posts is to find out what is legal and what isn't.

I appreciate your passion freakshow10mm for your work and for not wanting people to muck things up. I would not wish to do so in anyway because it doesn't just muck things up for FFLs, it hurts everyone who loves and wants to protect the Second Amendment.

It sucks that you take flack freakshow10mm for being an FFL. I am assuming such flack coming from "everyone else" refers to 2A haters?

 

[Art Eatman]

To drift from "manufacturer" to "dealer" for a moment: It has happened that an individual with a table at a gunshow took a gun in on trade in a deal and later at that same gunshow resold it for a profit. An ATF agent arrested him for dealing without an FFL. To me, this is a case of an ATF agent and his own personal interpretation of the rules. (See the cite in Post 23.)