I'm surprised no one has mentioned an HK-91 style rifle, particularly the PTR-91. I've had my eye on one of those for when I get the money for a long range .308. For the $750 range it's a whole lot less pricey than the AR-10 option.
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semi-auto .308 precision rifle
- Thread starter MagKnightX
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Chris Rhines
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You're being far too kind. I actually don't own an AR-10 at present (I've had two through my shop in the past month, but that doesn't count.) I've been doing a great deal of research, with the intention of buying one as a major-caliber 3-gun rifle. All my comments are products of that research.Chris you seem pretty knowledge able.
This is interesting. 4/1 groups are caused by something changing in the rifle action between the first and second shots. Have you tried shooting a group by loading single rounds in the magazine?It does have a 4 in 1 syndrom. The first round is typically about 1 inch or more high the rest usually group around .5 inch.
A couple of other things I would look at - how's the torque on your barrel nut? What is your headspace? What kind of ammo are you using?
Based on my experience with Kreiger-barreled highpower ARs, an AR-10 with a properly installed and headspaced Kreiger barrel should have no trouble at all making consistent 0.5MOA groups from a machine rest.
One other place for AR-10 barrels - www.ar15barrels.com This guy does custom AR-10 barrels on Douglas XX, Shilen, or other blanks, headspaced to your bolt. I've never used him, but I've heard enough good things about his work that I probably will for my next AR.
The carbon barrels are more an affection than anything else - if I had a spare $650 to spend, I'd have to get one installed just to try it out (an AR-10 that makes scout weight has long been a fantasy of mine.)
For optics, you are choosing between two of the best long-range telescopes made today. I got to try out a friends Nightforce a while back, and I quite fell in love with it. It has more internal elevation than the Leupold and I think that it is more solidly constructed. But the Leupold Mk4 is pretty well the standard by which sniping scopes are judged. Advising you as to one or the other would be kind of like advising you to choose between the BMW M5 and the Audi RS6. Drive 'em yourself and buy the one you like the best.
For precision shooting, the stock I prefer is the old A1 stock (or the new Cav Arms equivelent) with an A2 buttplate. I sometimes use a cheekpad made of stick-on closed cell foam to get the proper cheek weld.
Hope this helps some.
- Chris
Tomac
Member
"As to the russian stuff. I was always under the impression the Dragonoff was a 1.5 moa gun at best."
True for the 7.62x54 Dragunov primarily due to the lack of decent lightweight (appx 147gr) .311 match ammo. The .308 NDM-86 seems especially happy w/168gr match and exhibits surprising accuracy. Only 1,000 .308 NDM-86s were made as a special order back in the early '90s.
Tomac
True for the 7.62x54 Dragunov primarily due to the lack of decent lightweight (appx 147gr) .311 match ammo. The .308 NDM-86 seems especially happy w/168gr match and exhibits surprising accuracy. Only 1,000 .308 NDM-86s were made as a special order back in the early '90s.
Tomac
"As to the russian stuff. I was always under the impression the Dragonoff was a 1.5 moa gun at best. I have heard the Saiges are reliable solid guns but like AK's not all that accurate. In the 4 inch range at 100 yards.
---Pat"
4 MOA is what you can expect from a typical AK using 7.62x39. There's a Saiga chambered for this cartridge that probably gets just a little better than that. Of course, if you're firing a lot in a short amount of time, I'd expect the groups to open up as the barrel heats up.
The Saiga .223 and .308 are both more accurate and can be expected to do 2MOA or better, on average.
I have a neighbor who shoots a Bushmaster AR15 (with scope and bipod) against his dad who uses a scoped Saiga .308 with a bipod. According to my neighbor, the guns are on par with eachother for accuracy out to almost 300 yards. After 300 yards, however, the Saiga easily wins.
---Pat"
4 MOA is what you can expect from a typical AK using 7.62x39. There's a Saiga chambered for this cartridge that probably gets just a little better than that. Of course, if you're firing a lot in a short amount of time, I'd expect the groups to open up as the barrel heats up.
The Saiga .223 and .308 are both more accurate and can be expected to do 2MOA or better, on average.
I have a neighbor who shoots a Bushmaster AR15 (with scope and bipod) against his dad who uses a scoped Saiga .308 with a bipod. According to my neighbor, the guns are on par with eachother for accuracy out to almost 300 yards. After 300 yards, however, the Saiga easily wins.
George's site is:
http://www.gaprecision.net/
As for Nightforce vs. Leupold, the NF is *much* more sturdily built. In my personal experience, I don't know anyone who's chosen a Leupold over the Nightforce when cost wasn't a consideration. In a side-by-side test among 4 shooting acquaintances, the NF won hands down (though only one shooter owned or had ever looked through a NF). For clarity edge-to-edge, twilight resolution (both reticular and target resolution, the NF was spectacular here next to the Leupold); the Leupold "shut down" when we expected it to--it was just getting dark--but the NF just kept going and going, til we lost track of time and it "wasn't getting any darker" (it wasn't "country" dark, we were in an urban setting). With the advent of the new "50mm series", I think there is little left to hold against the NF except price (and maybe weight). If you can afford it, then the Leupold is a stepchild.
Leupold's Mk 4 is the standard by which all other "sniper/tactical" scopes are judged, but out of economic necessity; I don't recall anyone who's said their LE budget's big enough to absorb the cost of an LRT much less a Mk 4. Most city managers balk at the price of just a Leupold LRT. Damn near the only folks I've heard of who can 'readily afford' the Mk 4's are federal agencies and the military. This is not to rag on the Mk 4 or the LRT; they are the acknowledged 'standard' among serious shooters--but it is also generally acknowledged that NF is more in the class with Schmidt & Bender, Swarovski, Hensoldt, maybe even USO optical quality.
addendum: I should add that my advice to your original query--a precision .308, and you're "leaning toward semi(-auto)..." is, talk to George. No way will you come close to your budget; George guarantees 1/2 groups out of his high-end 10's. Most shooters are reporting mid-.3's as their average 5-shot groups, and some reloaders are claiming average low .2's. These are with the group-buy rifles that he recently put out--I think the cost was just under $2100 excluding scope and rings. He quoted me a "poor man's version" at ~$1700 as I recall--a semi-auto "field gun" capable of .3's average for $1700 ain't bad. I know you can find used GA Precisions and very likely with less than 500 rounds through them; this group buy just recently ended. Sniper's Hide and Sniper's Paradise classifieds are good places to look for that kind of equipment.
http://www.gaprecision.net/
As for Nightforce vs. Leupold, the NF is *much* more sturdily built. In my personal experience, I don't know anyone who's chosen a Leupold over the Nightforce when cost wasn't a consideration. In a side-by-side test among 4 shooting acquaintances, the NF won hands down (though only one shooter owned or had ever looked through a NF). For clarity edge-to-edge, twilight resolution (both reticular and target resolution, the NF was spectacular here next to the Leupold); the Leupold "shut down" when we expected it to--it was just getting dark--but the NF just kept going and going, til we lost track of time and it "wasn't getting any darker" (it wasn't "country" dark, we were in an urban setting). With the advent of the new "50mm series", I think there is little left to hold against the NF except price (and maybe weight). If you can afford it, then the Leupold is a stepchild.
Leupold's Mk 4 is the standard by which all other "sniper/tactical" scopes are judged, but out of economic necessity; I don't recall anyone who's said their LE budget's big enough to absorb the cost of an LRT much less a Mk 4. Most city managers balk at the price of just a Leupold LRT. Damn near the only folks I've heard of who can 'readily afford' the Mk 4's are federal agencies and the military. This is not to rag on the Mk 4 or the LRT; they are the acknowledged 'standard' among serious shooters--but it is also generally acknowledged that NF is more in the class with Schmidt & Bender, Swarovski, Hensoldt, maybe even USO optical quality.
addendum: I should add that my advice to your original query--a precision .308, and you're "leaning toward semi(-auto)..." is, talk to George. No way will you come close to your budget; George guarantees 1/2 groups out of his high-end 10's. Most shooters are reporting mid-.3's as their average 5-shot groups, and some reloaders are claiming average low .2's. These are with the group-buy rifles that he recently put out--I think the cost was just under $2100 excluding scope and rings. He quoted me a "poor man's version" at ~$1700 as I recall--a semi-auto "field gun" capable of .3's average for $1700 ain't bad. I know you can find used GA Precisions and very likely with less than 500 rounds through them; this group buy just recently ended. Sniper's Hide and Sniper's Paradise classifieds are good places to look for that kind of equipment.
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