oneounceload
member
My Beretta A400 Xplor Unico handles everything from my 3/4oz reloads to 3.5" goose loads with less recoil than a pump.
Semi-auto vs Pump: Home Defense.
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My Beretta A400 Xplor Unico handles everything from my 3/4oz reloads to 3.5" goose loads with less recoil than a pump.
I hear this a lot, and I can't really figure out why people say that.
A 3" .410 with 000buck is going to launch 5 rounds of 000 at 70 grains each, at roughly 1100fps (from a shotgun. If using a handgun obviously lower velocity).
That's getting hit with 350 grains worth of lead (in balls that are heavy enough to really penetrate to vitals) at 1100fps. I cannot imagine many bad guys could walk away from that.
Personally, I keep my 12ga next to the bed, but if all I had was my .410 and some magnum 000 buck, I'd feel perfectly secure.
Schwing
Member
As to whether semi or pump is somehow statistically better than the other, I can't speak to that.
What I do know is that I have had a pump action Mossberg for a lot of years and feel completely comfortable with it as a HD option. I am by no means against semi-autos but, in my own experience, the only failures to feed I have ever seen were with semi-autos.
What I do know is that I have had a pump action Mossberg for a lot of years and feel completely comfortable with it as a HD option. I am by no means against semi-autos but, in my own experience, the only failures to feed I have ever seen were with semi-autos.
200Apples
Mojave Lever Crew
.
John Farnam suggests full-power buckshot loads in 20 gauge over reduced-recoil loads in 12.
Pump gun is in the house because it's the shortest shotgun I have that's working (my cut-down, vintage H&R 12 ga single shot has a busted action release). An 1100 wearing a 22" slug barrel is in the safe because it's four inches longer. A 16"-barreled .357 levergun is the shortest long gun I have.
John Farnam suggests full-power buckshot loads in 20 gauge over reduced-recoil loads in 12.
Pump gun is in the house because it's the shortest shotgun I have that's working (my cut-down, vintage H&R 12 ga single shot has a busted action release). An 1100 wearing a 22" slug barrel is in the safe because it's four inches longer. A 16"-barreled .357 levergun is the shortest long gun I have.
rswartsell
Member
19-3 Ben,
I respect your opinion, just don't share it. Different strokes for different folks but as a general statement I would advise being very sure of your proficiency and avoid single shots if you select .410.
I respect your opinion, just don't share it. Different strokes for different folks but as a general statement I would advise being very sure of your proficiency and avoid single shots if you select .410.
oneounceload
member
But not as a one-weight load. There IS a difference between 5 balls equaling 350 and one slug equally that same weight hitting you.
plumberroy
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Never seen one in person. I don't shoot enough 3" loads for recoil to be a problem in a pump gun . If I shoot a 3.5 load it will be a 10 ga. From a quick net search I looks to be around $1500 gun I had a 870 built to exactly what I wanted for a defense/survival/woods bummin' gun for around $650 including shipping and transfer fees It isn't as pretty as the beretta I just don't see the beretta doing anything I need a gun to do that my 870 won't
It is a nice looking gun
Roy
I would also look at it different if I shoot 1k rounds a week at clay games but I don't
Absolutely agreed. No argument. 350gr of total payload, divided into 5 buckshot balls is a very different thing that one single chunk of lead at 350gr.
But each individual 000 buckshot ball from a .410 do exactly the same thing as a 000 buck ball from a 12ga. There are just fewer of them.
Each one of those balls has the density and velocity to penetrate to vitals, and the tight spread you get due to the single column in a .410 is only going to help increase the likelihood of good penetration in that regard, as each ball leads the way for subsequent balls to follow the path. Also take into account the faster followup shots due to lower recoil.
Tomorrow, when I have more energy, I'll look up ballistics gel tests with the .410 from an actual shotgun, rather than some yo-yo with a Judge or governor.
And keep in mind, when it comes to my family's safety, my first line of defense is the 12ga. I just say I don't knock the .410bore. I think it's gotten an unfair bad rap.
My wife keeps her .410 mossberg 500 on her side of the bed. She can run it well, and it's a great choice for her.
Snyper
Member
One word:
BENELLI
justice06rr
Member
Because no should expect the bad guy to run away just because he heard a racking sound. You cannot just assume a person will run away, whether they heard the sound or not. If it was a smart bad guy, then he would've known exactly where you are.
Even worse, if the BG had a gun, now he knows your location...
Inebriated
Member
To add to what has already been said... There are two reasons why people stop fighting. They decide to stop, or they become incapacitated. Psychological vs. physiological.
Running away at the sound of a shotgun is a 100% psychological reaction. Just as falling and wailing after being shot in the arm is a psychological reaction. But we know that some people will continue to fight if they aren't stopped by a physiological reaction. We know that "shoot em in the leg" doesn't work because, aside from the practical difficulties, it won't definitively stop an attacker.
So racking the gun may scare them away, or it may serve to alert them to your location, alert them that you have a gun and they'll be back with theirs for yours, or they simply may not care, and continue being a threat. It is an unreliable "tactic."
I would love to play around with a semi auto. The idea of a reliable 12g emptying quickly with less recoil is attractive. It just seems that you can't get as reliable and durable semi for pump gun money.
I would be all over a nice semi if shot clays, but I don't.
I make due with an old Ithaca dsps. How down the trigger and slam fire 7 rounds
I would be all over a nice semi if shot clays, but I don't.
I make due with an old Ithaca dsps. How down the trigger and slam fire 7 rounds
Sav .250
Member
In an home defense situation, "expense" is not a deal breaker..
A semi auto is by far and away.....the best choice.
Although, when reading about folks who have actually had to fire a weapon in the American Riflemen. Hand guns are mostly the weapons of choice!
A semi auto is by far and away.....the best choice.
Although, when reading about folks who have actually had to fire a weapon in the American Riflemen. Hand guns are mostly the weapons of choice!
The Chu chunk factor works with a pump. A night on guard duty (bunker watch) landed me a Captains Mast. Lt. sneaking around trying to find people sleeping on watch. Heard boots crunching on perimeter road. He fails to answer challenge twice. Racked the slide and ordered someone on the ground. Advanced and demanded "pass word". He complied and I let him pass. Next A.M in front of the Captain. I described the previous night action. I guess he had to do something so I got one extra of day of convoy duty. I think he knew I did it on purpose. Never did see the Lt. again.
oneounceload
member
True, but does that matter if your life might be in danger?
Against human opposition, I would favor semis over other mechanisms. They are effectively faster for the vast majority of users, and less difficult to operate adequately for most users when under stress. Good ones are usually quite reliable with loads implied by HD use, such as standard buckshot or slugs. I would no go cheap if I thought I needed a HD gun.
Practice is necessary with any weapon.
That being said, I do not own any HD firearm, so my opinion is just that, an opinion. My guns are for hunting only (which includes necessary target practice the way I look at it) and they are locked away so good that they would prove very impractical to use for HD, so take it for what it is worth.
Practice is necessary with any weapon.
That being said, I do not own any HD firearm, so my opinion is just that, an opinion. My guns are for hunting only (which includes necessary target practice the way I look at it) and they are locked away so good that they would prove very impractical to use for HD, so take it for what it is worth.
Very interesting thread. Lots of good arguments for/against both pump and semi. For me, my go-to shotgun is my Benelli Nova Pump. I don't consider a pump to be advantageous over semi, but I do like the size of the shotgun for tight spaces. It's compact, points well, and was "relatively" inexpensive. I would have no qualms about getting a semi in place instead of the pump, but for now, my Benelli is "on watch" 24/7.
To be perfectly honest, the shotgun I would prefer over any of these for compactness and quick deployment in home defense is a 12ga coach gun. They're so compact and light and easy to snatch up quickly that they're ideal for HD (IMHO). No need to pump and no worry about a bad semi feed, but if you can't take the dudes down with two shots, you'd better reload fast. That is a drawback, of course, but for most HD scenarios when adrenaline is running high, small and compact shotguns with dirt-simple manual of arms are ideal.
To be perfectly honest, the shotgun I would prefer over any of these for compactness and quick deployment in home defense is a 12ga coach gun. They're so compact and light and easy to snatch up quickly that they're ideal for HD (IMHO). No need to pump and no worry about a bad semi feed, but if you can't take the dudes down with two shots, you'd better reload fast. That is a drawback, of course, but for most HD scenarios when adrenaline is running high, small and compact shotguns with dirt-simple manual of arms are ideal.
plumberroy
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It does for a lot of people I can remember when a $40 single shot was hard to afford . I went to school, learned a trade and can with in reason buy what I want now.
I don't get the short stroking a pump I have been shooting pump guns for 40 years and have never done it. Pull back till it stops push forward till it stops squeeze trigger repeat not hard
It comes down to using what you know The gun that you are most familiar with is the gun you need in your hands if stuff goes south.
Truth be told there isn't one universal answer. For some an auto is the right answer, for some myself included it is a pump for some people a double is the answer.
Most of you would put my 870 on safe if you tried to use it. Since I am the only person in my house that shoots it would give me a second or two if some one else got to it before me
Roy
One can still come across professional grade combat style gun.
Found like New Police Magnum: 20" barrel front XS, rear Wilson Combat peep, Wilson Combat two shot extension, parkerized finish, plastic stocks with Remington marked Limbsaver pad.
Price kool $400.
I'm glad I passed on used Mossberg 590A1.
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oneounceload
member
Unless maybe you are half awake as the break in happens, it is dark, your adrenaline dump just happened and you are fearful some harm might come to you or your family.
Ash
Member
Or not. What about clearing a stove pipe in the chamber of a semi? Problems happen with any equipment.
oneounceload
member
Same stovepipe can happen in a pump. Semi is faster, one less thing to think about and focus on.
I had a burglar try to break in through an upstairs door which had an outside stairwell leading to the door. I was working late upstairs in my office and heard his trying to pry the door open. I racked the shotgun as I approached the door and he could be heard dropping the screwdriver and after three or four steps down the stairs could be heard falling down the rest of the way down the metal stairs.
About 20 years later I heard what sounded like someone walking across our back porch. Shook it off. My Wife then came into my bedroom from hers and said someone had just walked on the porch which was right beside her bedroom. I'm trying to do a mental ramp up of what it could be when the metal cover of our breaker panel "cranked" as someone tried to open it. Boom goes the quart of adrenaline and I grab my .45 and she runs to get the baby. I rack the slide of the .45 and I can hear the panel drop then heavy foot falls on the back porch. I kept the chamber of the 1911 empty as a safeguard to help prevent our Daughter from picking it up loaded since she was too young to chamber a round by pulling the slide.
Now...both the shotgun already have a partially loaded chamber and the .45 chamber is loaded.
A police officer friend racked a shotgun when he arrived as requested back up and his partner was backed into a corner by a thug group and he said the group parted like Moses parting the Red sea.
In retrospect I wouldn't do it again...It's a good way to draw fire.
Bexar
About 20 years later I heard what sounded like someone walking across our back porch. Shook it off. My Wife then came into my bedroom from hers and said someone had just walked on the porch which was right beside her bedroom. I'm trying to do a mental ramp up of what it could be when the metal cover of our breaker panel "cranked" as someone tried to open it. Boom goes the quart of adrenaline and I grab my .45 and she runs to get the baby. I rack the slide of the .45 and I can hear the panel drop then heavy foot falls on the back porch. I kept the chamber of the 1911 empty as a safeguard to help prevent our Daughter from picking it up loaded since she was too young to chamber a round by pulling the slide.
Now...both the shotgun already have a partially loaded chamber and the .45 chamber is loaded.
A police officer friend racked a shotgun when he arrived as requested back up and his partner was backed into a corner by a thug group and he said the group parted like Moses parting the Red sea.
In retrospect I wouldn't do it again...It's a good way to draw fire.
Bexar
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Panzerschwein
member
I feel like the autoloading semi-automatic shotgun is the best route these days.
You can get a reliable one for not much more than a pump, but the rate of fire is higher and there is no risk of a short stroke. It also can be fired one handed which is huge for HD work when you might have a phone or baby in your hand etc.
I've been on the lookout for a Remington 11-87 Police for some time. Would be wicked for home defense loaded with 12 gauge 2 3/4" #1 buckshot loads.
You can get a reliable one for not much more than a pump, but the rate of fire is higher and there is no risk of a short stroke. It also can be fired one handed which is huge for HD work when you might have a phone or baby in your hand etc.
I've been on the lookout for a Remington 11-87 Police for some time. Would be wicked for home defense loaded with 12 gauge 2 3/4" #1 buckshot loads.
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