Semi-auto Vs Revolver Reliability

[USBP1969]

I sincerely appreciate all the replies to my post. I asked because of what I had witnessed during quarterly qualification. SATT training, Academy training as well as the test my agency conducted at Aberdeen Proving Ground in 1993, 1994 and 1995.

I had hoped that semi-auto design technology and manufacturing technology had improved since those experiences and it sounds like they have.

Just some test trivia from that era:

Aberdeen conducted a multitude of tests on the various .40 S&W submissions. There were a total of seven different .40 S&W submissions for the contract that ultimately ended with a 30,000+ handgun purchase.

There were so many tests that I would have to review the video tape we made just to refresh my memory, but the one that stands out the most was the 10,000 round reliability / durability tests. Here are the results from memory:

1) The winner averaged 4 malfunctions* per pistol during the test.

2) The second place pistol averaged 28 malfunctions* during the test.

3) The third place pistol averaged 115 malfunctions* during the test.

4) The fourth place pistol averaged 1500 malfunctions* during the test.

5) The other three suffered catastrophic failures with all test weapons before the 10,000 round test was completed and were disqualified.

* = Attributable to weapon malfunction

Note: Each test weapon was detail stripped for inspection daily after firing 500 rounds. They were then ultra-sonically cleaned and reassembled. (They might have been cleaned and then inspected - I do not remember.) IMO that was a mistake since detail stripping and ultra-sonic cleaning would not occur during the life time of pistol in the field.

It goes without saying which pistol was purchased since 17 or more malfunctions provided the vender with a zero score.

Thanks again for al the input and insights.

-kent

 

[Steel Talon]

I grew up with revolvers,and for a long period of time my service firearm was a revolver. I also made the transition to pistols late 80's on the job and personal. I've competed in many compitions with revolvers during the "old days" and now compete pretty much exclusively with pistols now. With the exception of the occasional revolver comp. that my local club puts on. I was also a police firearms instructor which included both revolver and pistol.

In my experience , between the two. Revolvers gave me the less failure to fire issues then pistols. However, the main key in any firearm dependability is regular cleaning,proper lubrication, and inspection of the mechanism parts and movement.

Would I ever give up my pistols, or my revolver? oh de hell no's

 

[USBP1969]

Yes. the contract was awarded to Beretta USA for the 96D Brigadier .40 S&W DAO handgun.

Yes, they did re-lube them after every 500 round inspection.

Other tests from memory were:
Sand & Dust Test
Six Attitude drop test on to concrete from 48". (These were the 10,000 round test weapons after that test had been completed.)
Cold Temp Test (-40F)
Heat Test (+140F)
Corrosion Test
Accuracy Test
Plugged Barrel Test
Ammunition Compatibility Tests (All available duty ammo that could possibly be purchased.)
Ergonomic Tests
Parts interchangeability Test

There's probably more, but that's all that comes to mind.

-kent

 

[jmr40]

Not one of those 4 revolvers has ever malfunctioned.

Does anybody have a similar record with autos?

I've never had a malfunction of any kind with any 9mm pistol made by Glock, S&W, Sig, Beretta, Ruger, Browning or FN. I've had quite a few from CZ.

I've never had a malfunction from a 1911 made by Colt, Kimber or S&W. Malfunctions have been quite common from all other brands of 1911's.

Other 45's that have been 100% are Glock and Ruger. I've had issues with Sig, H&K and FN 45's

My Glock 20 in 10mm has also been 100% reliable.

Not enough experience with 40's to say. I had a Glock 22 for a while, and it was also 100%, but with limited use.

By contrast I've had quite a few revolvers made by Colt, Ruger and S&W. While all were pretty good at some point all have had minor reliablity issues.

 

[1stmarine]

My glocks any of them can go for 4000 rounds w/o a single issue and then when it is found normally is the round/ammo.
This is my experience consistently through the years.

 

[tnek13]

Your question seems to ask for experience with autos and/or revolvers produced in the last 7 years. I have purchased 7 revolvers (2 Smith J Frames, 2 Smith N frames, 1 USFA, 2 Rugers) and 4 autos (Glock, Kahr, Kimber, STI) in that time frame. None of these guns has experiences any gun related failures. I clean them after every range session, and detail strip and clean them once a year. Past experience with a couple of auto loaders makes me favor revolvers, but I seem to shoot the autos more because they are easier to clean.

 

[M2 Carbine]

Semi-auto Vs Revolver Reliability

Lets put it this way.
Say you were going to bet $10,000 on which type gun would malfunction the least or not at all, of the next 100 revolvers and next 100 semi autos that come into the local shooting range.
Which one would you pick?

I know where my money would go and I guarantee I would be $10,000 richer.
I can't remember the last revolver malfunction at my range but semi auto malfunctions are a common thing.

 

[scythefwd]

M2 - how many of those malfunctions are user induced? The only malfunctions I've had in ANY semi were do to me and a pansy grip. My rami straightened up after I changed my grip, so did the keltec (think I would have learned by now). My HP and FEG NEVER had a malfunction. Granted, the only thing that gets hollow points in it is the rami.

How many of those are ammo related? I mean that the ammo doesn't work in the gun. I'd take your bet if I get to run nothing but ball through the auto (since that is what 99% of them are designed with in mind) and I had the money to do it.

At the same time, if we do count a proven ammo in the gun (something that doesn't jam every 50 rounds) for both, do we get to count duds or poorly seated primers? I've seen enough reloads, which a lot of people are using that will go bang after a second hit.

 

[Zerodefect]

Lets put it this way.
Say you were going to bet $10,000 on which type gun would malfunction the least or not at all, of the next 100 revolvers and next 100 semi autos that come into the local shooting range.
Which one would you pick?

I know where my money would go and I guarantee I would be $10,000 richer.
I can't remember the last revolver malfunction at my range but semi auto malfunctions are a common thing.

Cool. The revolver would win that due to all the poorly maintained semis, and El Cheapo 3rd world country built 1911's that show up at my range.

Lets try another test.
How about before we test, you let me chuck each gun against a brick wall as hard as I can. Target is a piece of notebook paper at 17 yards. 10 shots for each gun. Misses count as a failure.

Yes Virginia, my CCW and duty primary do have to be that tough.

 

[scythefwd]

zero - That last comment directed at me?

 

[Zerodefect]

No. No.
Not directed at anyone.

Quoted test, obviously favors revolvers. My weak test obviously favors semis. I mean if I'm betting $10,000 I'm going to stack the deck, right?

 

[scythefwd]

Zero - No problem man... I just happen to be from Virginia, so it was perfect timing

 

[Zerodefect]

Oh, LOLz. I was trying to do a spoof on "Yes, Virginia there is a Santa Clause."










Yes, revolver would get pretty bent up on my side.

But seriously, I use my pistols hard. If I'm at a carbine shoot and one of the stages requires me to drop urban prone on my right side that means I'm falling hard. On top of my holstered pistol. Leaves a nice bruise on my side.

Not fun at all. But the only way to practice is at full speed, and in real life, I'm getting down as fast as I can. And for urban prone, that hurts.

How many time can I do that before the crane gets bent, or the frame and barrel are bent out of wack?

 

[Steel Talon]

how many of those malfunctions are user induced?

None the less still a malfunction that is exclusive to the semi auto'

I've seen enough reloads, which a lot of people are using that will go bang after a second hit.

Agree,with range,competition, and hunting applications. However for me my carry ammo is always factory made. In the many years I've been shooting I can recall 5 factory ammo failures.

How about before we test, you let me chuck each gun against a brick wall as hard as I can. Target is a piece of notebook paper at 17 yards. 10 shots for each gun. Misses count as a failure.

Interesting test However,really doesn't matter type of pistol if the sights get bent then either will fail in the accuracy dept.

How many time can I do that before the crane gets bent, or the frame and barrel are bent out of whack?

I'd venture a guess and say 1 in a 1,000,000.

My point being based on the topic and my experiences . I believe that the revolver malfunctions infinitely less than a semi-auto pistol

 

[scythefwd]

steel - you can't blame the tool for not working right when the person is using it wrong. It's like watching a person stall out a manual car... it's not the cars fault... it's the drivers fault. There is a different skill set to firing an semi-auto vs a revolver. If the person doesn't have the skill set, it's not going to work right, regardless of how reliable the gun is. Get someone who has the skillset down pat and test the reliability of the gun and you'll find that you'll run out of day before either fails. We are talking about the reliability of the guns, not the repeatability of proper technique of the goon holding it. They are linked, but two separate issues. In the few years of my shooting semi-autos (only a couple of decades, short time compared to others here), I have had exactly 2 failures, and both were caused by me. The gun couldn't be blamed on either. I was shooting a new gun, in a larger caliber than I was used to, for the first time. Two failures to feed due to a limp wrist. Can't blame the gun or knock it's reliabilty for my failure. That's kinda like blaming the suspension of a car for not handling a sinkhole...

 

[USBP1969]

Jeff56 - That's interesting concerning ultra-sonic cleaners causing problems with weapons. I don't happen to have one, but I would be interested in finding out more about that subject.

My issue wasn't that the ultra-sonic cleaner would cause a structural or mechanical problem, just that it didn't reflect "field usage." The most they would ever be cleaned by an Agent in the field would be after they field stripped it.

The testing, other than what I stated earlier was, IMO, very well conducted. Based on what I saw in the field during quarterly qualification during the five years prior (Agents could purchase their own semi-autos, and after completing Semi-Automatic Transition Training (SATT) were permitted to carry them.) I would say that the tests reflected the accurately reflected the state of the art at that time.

Once the personally-owned semi-automatics were factored into qualification it took about twice as long to run a 72 round qual course due to the "alibis" requested by the semi-auto shooting Agents.

If I hadn't wanted them to shoot their "primary" weapon first (the one they usually carry)(they could qualify with both their personally owned semi-auto and their issue revolver) I would have segregated the two qualification courses so that one was all revolver and one all semi-auto or mixed. That would have saved quite a bit of time.

My reason for asking the question in the first post was that, based on my local sheriff's department experience with their G-22's, it seemed as though reliability had greatly increased since I retired.

-kent

 

[Warp]

M2 - how many of those malfunctions are user induced?

Sounds like a good reason to avoid ever using a semi auto for defensive use. I don't want to trust my life to a firearm that malfunctions if you use a less than perfect grip. After all, in a life or death situation you may not have the perfect grip.

 

[Steel Talon]

Scyth well said, However, it's still a malfunction specific to semi-auto pistols that will require additional actions to make it ready for follow up bang, Simply revolvers don't suffer from weak grip malfunction.

Same can be said that the revolver suffers specific operator error from speed loading that a semi auto doesn't. That being, by not allowing gravity to assist in dumping spent cartridges.,the malfunction is spent cases getting behind the ejector star which takes further actions to clear and make ready for follow up bang.

Revolvers Vs. Semi-auto reliability, a slight edge goes to the revolver. As I see it anyway.


Sorry if this is a double tap....

 

[scythefwd]

Warp - less than perfect is way different than not firm enough. When the adrenalin kicks in, two things are going go happen. My malfunctions were cause by me gripping my new, subcompact, polymer gun in .40 like I was gripping my heavy BHP in 9mm. Now that I grip both the same, 100% reliability. I didn't change my grip other than how tight it was.

1. Your going to have a deathgrip on that pistol grip.
2. What you have practiced will kick in.

It also sounds like a good reason not to use a pump while hunting right....you might short stroke the gun? Or not use a double barrel because some wont fire right if you don't snap them shut vs. gently closing them? Avoiding using something just because it requires you to get accustomed to something different is a bit... off. I'll have 10k of rounds through my SD gun long before I ever use it... That technique will be so ingrained that it won't be a question of proper grip...
Steel - I've already said that there is and edge to revolvers... I also say it is academic.

 

[Steel Talon]

Scythe, of course brother... After all is said and done, I prefer to carry and shoot semi-autos

 

[Warp]

Warp - less than perfect is way different than not firm enough. When the adrenalin kicks in, two things are going go happen. My malfunctions were cause by me gripping my new, subcompact, polymer gun in .40 like I was gripping my heavy BHP in 9mm. Now that I grip both the same, 100% reliability. I didn't change my grip other than how tight it was.

And if these were revolvers you never would have had any of those malfunctions.

What do you know.

Don't get me wrong, I primarily carry a semi auto. However, I am sick and tired of this lame ass "limp wrist" excuse. If the gun is so easy to limp wrist that every time it malfs everybody just says "it's the shooter" or "limp wrist" then it is a POS that you cannot trust your life to. I have tried to limp wrist my carry setup before. It still worked just fine. If it hadn't I wouldn't be carrying it because it would, IMO, for the use of saving my life, be an unreliable POS

 

[scythefwd]

it really was a limp wrist with me. the heavier the frame of the gun, the less likely they are succeptable to limp wristing. i would barely hold my bhp.... the rami requires a more stout hold. I was basically doing a loose 2 finger hold on it. There are plenty of videos on youtube showing limp wristing. one specifically holding the gun via trigger finger and thumb only.... he was able to get about 1/3 of the guns to malfunction if i remember right. it really isnt a prob for most semi autos...

my faults ocurred in the first 20 round of fire... all good after that.

Search for "Limp Wrist Test" on youtube and there is at least 3 videos of the same guy testing different arms. It was a bit of an eye opener. I used to say there was no such thing as a limp wrist failure (before I had my first failures on any guns after about 18 years of shooting). Sturmgewher is the poster.

This video is awesome.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jh9JhCyFFxA&feature=related

In the three videos I just watched, the only poly guns that didn't mess up were an HK usp tatical, a sig p226, a xd, .
The only steel framed one that had probs was a baretta 92d. Now his glock 17c was ported, and he even states that may have been some of the problem.

 

[GLOOB]

Everyone gun, ammo, and person is different. The frame is sooo light on some of these polymer guns, that the mass of a shooter's hand/arm/upper body and residual muscle tone can make the difference. Some people can literally not limp wrist a particular gun/ammo combo unless they get all fancy pants with weird 2 finger holds, muzzle pointed sideways to remove the contribution of forearm and upper body mass.

 

[Warp]

it really was a limp wrist with me. the heavier the frame of the gun, the less likely they are succeptable to limp wristing. i would barely hold my bhp.... the rami requires a more stout hold. I was basically doing a loose 2 finger hold on it. There are plenty of videos on youtube showing limp wristing. one specifically holding the gun via trigger finger and thumb only.... he was able to get about 1/3 of the guns to malfunction if i remember right. it really isnt a prob for most semi autos...

my faults ocurred in the first 20 round of fire... all good after that.

Search for "Limp Wrist Test" on youtube and there is at least 3 videos of the same guy testing different arms. It was a bit of an eye opener. I used to say there was no such thing as a limp wrist failure (before I had my first failures on any guns after about 18 years of shooting). Sturmgewher is the poster.

This video is awesome.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jh9Jh...eature=related

In the three videos I just watched, the only poly guns that didn't mess up were an HK usp tatical, a sig p226, a xd, .
The only steel framed one that had probs was a baretta 92d. Now his glock 17c was ported, and he even states that may have been some of the problem.

Exactly why (well, ONE reason why) revolvers are more reliable than semi autos

1. No limp wristing
2. No Failing to feed
3. No failures to eject (well, kinda but not really/different)

 

[StrikeFire83]

^ Yeah, okay. When you're talking most modern semi-auto designs, these issues often become non-issues.

1. Limp Wristing - Yeah, I always hear about this. I've never had it happen to me, even with my tiny Kahr PM9.

2. Failure to Feed/Eject - My Glock 17 has fired almost 14,000 rounds with 1 malfunction, which was clearly traceable to a mis-cramped bullet from the factory. My CZ-75B has over 7,000 rounds thru it with ZERO malfunctions...and I bought it USED! My XD9-Sub Compact...new with only 650 rounds thru it and ZERO malfunctions.

Every gun is ammo sensitive. I've seen quite a few revolvers bind up on the range due to dirty ejector stars. I've even seen an under-charged round fire a bullet that got stuck between the cylinder and the barrel, rendering the revolver completely useless until a gunsmith with a tool pried the bullet out.