Several Questions

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brianw3185

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Hi, folks, new to this site, figured it would be a good place to ask questions, here we go:
(talking about 9mm 124 gr FMJ generally)

1) Is it possible to extrapolate load data from, for instance, the 115 gr data to the appropriate load for the 124?

2) COL: how to determine the COL if there is no data for it, apparently it is pretty critical for a 9mm.

3) What effect does the case empty volume have on the ballistics/pressure ie. case volume - bullet seated volume - powder volume?

4) What is "working up a load" mean without a chronograph or blowing my hand off?

Finally:

5) Does anybody have any data for the Midwest MP-190 and the Midwest MP-180 powders?

Thanks in advance!
 
Excellent questions, and all the answers are in the introductory chapters of the reloading manual you really really need to buy and read. Yes, you'll get answers, but we have no idea what else you're missing, and neither do you.

The only think you won't find in the manual:
1) Is it possible to extrapolate load data from, for instance, the 115 gr data to the appropriate load for the 124?
Yes. Learn how by comparing data between 115 and 124, until you understand the pattern.
 
#1. Not really, although an experienced reloader could do it reasonably well. Since you're asking, no.

#2. I load almost all 9MM RN to fall between 1.130 & 1.135. You won't get in trouble there.

#3. None really, it's seating depth/OAL you need to worry with.

#4. Since you don't have a chrono, get a feel for recoil and how far cases are thrown compared to factory, don't go over book max.

#5. Have no idea.

Welcome to THR
 
2) COL: how to determine the COL if there is no data for it, apparently it is pretty critical for a 9mm.!
Reputable data should have the cartridge overall length that was used by the testing organization. It is not cast in stone but if you use a different COL you need to work up your loads and check for pressure signs. Generally, with a semi-auto cartridge round, what fits in the magazine is a limitation that needs to be considered when deciding on a COL to use.

3) What effect does the case empty volume have on the ballistics/pressure ie. case volume - bullet seated volume - powder volume?!
For the same powder charge, if the bullet is seated deeper, the pressure will increase.

4) What is "working up a load" mean without a chronograph or blowing my hand off?
!
A chronograph will not give you pressure levels anyway. It can be a tool to help develop safe ammunition. Read a good reloading manual and it will have information on indications of excessive pressure. Accurate pressure levels can only be found with the appropriate test equipment. This is why good, relable load data is important.

Working up a load means starting at the data’s starting load and increasing the powder charge until the desired performance is reached without pressure signs. Frequently the best accuracy is obtain below maximum pressures.

If you cannot find data for a particular powder and bullet, there is probably a good reason.
 
Hi Brianw3185.
Welcome to THR!

As already mentioned, you need to get a manual. Lyman or Hogdon has a little more precise velocity data. That doesn't mean your results will be the same, but it will give you a better data set to compare patterns. Hornady manual is ok for thier bullets, but they give velocity in 100fps increments, so its a little harder to compare thier data. There are other manuals by bullet makers such as Speer, Nosler etc. You can also get information from the powder mfg of whatever powder you're using.
To answer some your questions which may or may not have already been answered:

1. Yes, Generally the same bullet in different weights is gonna have a lower max charge for the heavier bullet. For example:
Xyz 124gr fmj has a max charge listed at 5.5 gr of Ricky Rocket fuel and 1150fps , the Xyz 115gr fmj is likely gonna have a slightly higher max charge of say 5.6 gr and probably a slightly higher velocity of , say 1190fps. Pdq's 115gr fmj may have a little different construction and have a max charge of 5.1gr
So if you study enough data you can get a sense of how to extrapolate, but it takes diligence and caution.
There are also ballistic software apps that can take your powder, bullet, barrel length, etc, and give you theoretical computed load data.

2. Just about every bullet mfg can give you a recommended col for thier bullet, but that doesn't mean it will work in your gun. I have a G3c with a tight throat, so some bullets have to be loaded shorter than the recommend col in this gun. This means I have to be extra careful if I'm playing around the max end of the charge range because shortening the col can have a similar effect to increasing the powder charge. However, just like a higher powder charge, shortened col can cause pressure to spike suddenly at an unknown point, which is bad. Some powders like Hs-6 are pretty forgiving of this in 9mm, other powders like Titegroup are not.

3. Case volume is not much of a concern in 9mm unless you're a competitive shooter, but to answer your question, variation in case volume does have an affect on ignition and powder burn rate, and thus affects pressure curve. This is more of a concern with rifle cases, but it's worth reading more about it to understand.

4. Working up a load means starting at a known safe starting point, preferably published in multiple sources, and working up in small increments until you get the result you want. You start at a safe pt and work up in 0.1 gr increments and test in your gun. You are looking for flattened primers or other clues to make sure you aren't hitting excessive pressures. You do this until you find what you want , or find signs that you need to back off.
Velocity is a good indicator of excessive pressure, so a chronograph is usefull here. If you're seeing 1400fps from a load that the manual says should be 1200, that's a good indication something is amiss. If you make incremental powder increases, but suddenly you are not seeing a velocity increase, that's another sign you are in dangerous territory, or you have a powder that can't do any more in the barrel length you have.

5. I think you can probably get some data from Midwest, but I haven't tried personally. Someone else will probably have experience here and chime in .
 
Hi, folks, new to this site, figured it would be a good place to ask questions, here we go:
(talking about 9mm 124 gr FMJ generally)

1) Is it possible to extrapolate load data from, for instance, the 115 gr data to the appropriate load for the 124?

2) COL: how to determine the COL if there is no data for it, apparently it is pretty critical for a 9mm.

3) What effect does the case empty volume have on the ballistics/pressure ie. case volume - bullet seated volume - powder volume?

4) What is "working up a load" mean without a chronograph or blowing my hand off?

Finally:

5) Does anybody have any data for the Midwest MP-190 and the Midwest MP-180 powders?

Thanks in advance!
Welcome aboard! You say you’re new here but don’t mention how long you’ve been a handloader.
#2&3 are answered in part by some of the bullet makers. Measuring the maximum seating depth is common to long range rifle shooting using just the bullet and chamber to find the base-to-ogive. If you have the tools and skills it’s pretty easy. It’s also kinda mathy for some folks. Anyway, let us know some background and we’ll try to help.
 
Hi!
I'm pretty much a newbie.
I've been handloading since about late 2020, for the obvious reason that the prices of ammo were out of control. I loaded about two cases, just slowly over time, I wasn't in a rush. The ammo seemed good. But, I had been using a balance beam for weights. I have grown up with these things, and know how to use them (at least I should have); it fell off the shelf and did not hold together. So, I went and bought a digital scale. When I started to double check some of my powder charges, it turned out that I was charging 10% higher than what I thought. I am now pulling this ammo, so that I can reload them with the appropriate charge. I will not make the same mistake twice, you can bet on that. Both reloading data came from the distributor in one case and the manufacturer in the other, so I wasn't guessing at anything.
So, which reloading manual(s) should I get, I have a Lyman and a Lee so far.
Thanks for your opinions and advice, any and all is appreciated
 
Hi!
I'm pretty much a newbie.
I've been handloading since about late 2020, for the obvious reason that the prices of ammo were out of control. I loaded about two cases, just slowly over time, I wasn't in a rush. The ammo seemed good. But, I had been using a balance beam for weights. I have grown up with these things, and know how to use them (at least I should have); it fell off the shelf and did not hold together. So, I went and bought a digital scale. When I started to double check some of my powder charges, it turned out that I was charging 10% higher than what I thought. I am now pulling this ammo, so that I can reload them with the appropriate charge. I will not make the same mistake twice, you can bet on that. Both reloading data came from the distributor in one case and the manufacturer in the other, so I wasn't guessing at anything.
So, which reloading manual(s) should I get, I have a Lyman and a Lee so far.
Thanks for your opinions and advice, any and all is appreciated
Opinions vary on which manuals are good and which are not but the general consensus is every new reloader should have a copy of The ABC's of Reloading and the Lyman's manual. The most recent is the 51st but it don't have to be the most recent, it just needs to include the components you're using - case, primer, powder, projectile. I'd say the biggest thing is to go through those first several chapters at the beginning of the Lyman manual, get a copy of ABC's and read it - twice! because it won't make sense the first time - then think about what you need to get that you don't have. One thing is for sure: trying to force components to work that just aren't compatible is a recipe for disappointment.

As for your #2/3 questions, start here: https://bergerbullets.com/shoot-better/shooting-knowledge/measuring-coal-and-cbto/
It's a four-part series on measuring, calculating and comparing the seating depth vs. cartridge overall length vs. cartridge base to bullet ogive for ANY bullet-chamber combination. Yes, it is very rifle-heavy but the same principles and practices apply to both handgun and rifle. Read those articles - twice! ;) - and get the basic books.

We'll talk more later. Be patient. It's better than being sorry. :)
 
for #3, seating a bullet deeper will decrease the total space for the charge. Smaller space, same charge, higher initial peak pressure. The real risk to that is bullet setback when the nose womps into the ramp when it is stripped out of the magazine. I push the nose of a dummy round into my bench and measure it to see if I can get it to move. I'll also make a few mags of dummy rounds just to test if they get through the action, but I'll also measure them all and take and average and do it again after, look for anything that's gone out of spec, or if the overall average gets smaller. If so, I have something to figure out, before I load anything.
 
So, which reloading manual(s) should I get, I have a Lyman and a Lee so far.
I use a lot of Hornady bullets, so I bought Hornady 10th and recently the 11th. I also have the Lyman 50th and Hogdon 2021. The Hogdon manual lists bullets from Sierra, Hornady, Barnes, and others.
If I had to use only one, it would probably be the Hogdon, mainly because the powder selection is about twice what the other two have.
Inevitably, you're gonna run into a powder that one of them doesn't list for a bullet you want to use or vice/versa. This is where having multiple publications to compare data becomes invaluable. Also inevitable is seeing conflicting data in different sources. This is where the bullet/powder Mfg and THR come in handy.:)
 
As bullet weight increases, maximum powder charge diminishes. So you can use the powder charge for a 124 grain bullet for a 115 grain load, but not the other way around.

The case volume behind the bullet matters a lot. Less volume yields more pressure, until you start getting close to the lands, and then pressure goes up again.

Of course, you can't measure pressure with a chronograph but if you are using the book specified powder and bullet weight, and your MV (corrected for barrel length) is at or below book specification, your pressure is at or below the book spec.
 
Excellent questions, and all the answers are in the introductory chapters of the reloading manual you really really need to buy and read. Yes, you'll get answers, but we have no idea what else you're missing, and neither do you.

^^^Well said. Everyone needs a manual. Not only do they tell you load recipes, but how to set up your dies and other proper techniques/procedures for safe handloads. As for.....


Is it possible to extrapolate load data

Yes it is, but it is not as easy or simple as it seems. You have to have a full understanding of how to safely reload exact recipes first. Regardless of what activity it is, it's always best to start with the KISS(Keep It Simple Stupid) methodology. With reloading, that is following recipes exactly. While it may be almost impossible to get all the exact components one needs for a particular recipe, finding the corresponding bullet weight, composition and profile is not. Primers are about the most universal as long as you stick with standard or magnum as is stated in the published recipe. Again, all of this is explained in a good manual.


4) What is "working up a load" mean without a chronograph or blowing my hand off?

That means to stick within the published load recipe. Powder/bullet manufacturers have done all the work for you already. If you gun is in good working order and has been manufactured within the last half a century, you will not blow it up, or your hand off, following their published recipes. Chronographs for the average reloader is a fairly recent development. Many of us that have them, don;t use them as much as you think. Velocity is not the goal of most of us, we seek the most accurate load, not the fastest. Many times this is far below "max". Even when velocity is the goal, we need to stick within published loads unless we are very experienced, not only with the reloading process, but the guns our reloads are being shot in.
 
Thanks, everyone, for all your comments. I went out an bought the ABC's and am reading it now..
I'm going to be on this site pretty frequently, I think, so if there's anything else that you could think of that would help me on my reloading career, please send along a link or a title or information.
Thanks again, hope to talk to you soon!
 
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