Shooting in Hollywood - What would you do?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Trent

Trent

Member
Joined
Dec 6, 2010
Messages
25,151
Location
Illinois
Scenario:

Man is walking down a street shooting at anything that moves.

Question:

You see what is happening. How would you respond?

CNN Video / Newscast


Assuming this were to happen in a state which allows people to defend themselves, and you were armed, in your vehicle, what would the best response be?

Drive away ... fast?

Stop and engage?

Something else?

(NOTE: please don't discuss the incident itself, or CA's laws.. just the scenario it presents)
 
Expanding the scenario:

The guy who shot the video (in the newsclip) was on the 4th floor of a building overlooking the incident.

So expand the scenario accordingly (you can come across the situation while driving, or by looking out of the window).

This shooting incident raises some interesting questions regarding intervention, such as whether you could or should engage the bad guy from a distance.

I haven't seen an incident where a long gun could be involved from your house or an apartment before, or from a vehicle parked down the street - which is what got me thinking about this one. I know many people carry long guns in their vehicles, and certainly have access to them while at home.

So a crazy man is walking down the road shooting at everyone and the cops are nowhere in sight.

What do you do?
 
If I was the guy shooting the video and I WASN'T IN CA (or a half dozen other liberal states), I wouldn't think twice about plugging him from my window with a rifle.
 
It depends on my range from the person, on the weapon he has in his hands, the weapon I had in my possession, and on the number of people in the area.

If he had a rifle and I had a handgun, I think the odds are very low that I would engage, especially if I was more than 25 yards (or so) away. To be perfectly honest, I'm just not too confident in my ability to stop a threat with a handgun at ranges far beyond that, based on my current level of experience with handguns. Like I said though, that depends a lot on the weapon I have. The range limit would be different if I had a snub-nose .38 Special, versus a Sig P220, obviously.

I'm not sure there is a best answer in this situation. Driving away would mean you most likely survive, while numerous other innocent people are left defenseless. Engaging would mean you risk your life for the chance of saving others; there's also the possibility that you miss, and end up being sued for any of a few different possible reasons, if you engage. Too many variables for a clear-cut answer.
 
Last edited:
Bobson I expanded the scenario in post #2 to reflect you might be the observer on the 4th floor - you can pick whether you're a driver at street level coming across the incident in your vehicle, or sitting in your apartment in a building looking down on the situation unfolding in the street below.

"So expand the scenario accordingly (you can come across the situation while driving, or by looking out of the window)."

If in that situation my first thought would be turn the wheel towards him and hit the gas (if I was alone, that is - if I had my 5 kids and wife with me, I'd high-tail it out of there quick as possible).

But.. then I'd probably get charged with all sorts of traffic offenses and vehicular manslaughter. Plus, if he steps aside, you're then 12" away from the muzzle of a madman...

If you were the observer on the 4th floor, and open the window to pop him with a scoped rifle, that may cause all sorts of fallout. (You weren't in immediate danger, the guy wasn't invading your home, etc - lots of states - including those with castle doctrine, wouldn't clear you in that situation).

This is surely one of those curious, oddball situations.
 
Trent said:
Bobson I expanded the scenario in post #2 to reflect you might be the observer on the 4th floor - you can pick whether you're a driver at street level coming across the incident in your vehicle, or sitting in your apartment in a building looking down on the situation unfolding in the street below.
Click to expand...
My mistake, didn't see that. Apologies, KodiakBeer.
Trent said:
If you were the observer on the 4th floor, and open the window to pop him with a scoped rifle, that may cause all sorts of fallout. (You weren't in immediate danger, the guy wasn't invading your home, etc - lots of states - including those with castle doctrine, wouldn't clear you in that situation).
Click to expand...
If I were in a window and had the opportunity, I'd fire on him without question. Even if I knew I'd be put on trial, because it wasn't immediate self-defense. I couldn't just stand by and let some maniac fire on helpless people.

I already addressed the vehicle bit.
 
In the streets like that is seems like a shotgun would be most effective and safe. Not much collateral damage if you hit anything behind the guy shooting in the street, and even with bird shot I would take a shot from a 4th story window. I've taken birds that far away so I know it wouldn't tickle for a human.
 
Yeah, I agree Bobson. I couldn't sit there and watch as someone shot people. There'd be hell to pay later, though.

I would guess the best thing you could do afterwards would be to put up the gun, go down, and volunteer your surrender to the LEO's that arrive to avoid them having to tear apart the building searching for "the second shooter in the window" (as people would undoubtedly be telling 911 about).

Interesting thing about fight or flight - that normally busy city street looked like a ghost-town, in no-time flat.
 
If you were the observer on the 4th floor, and open the window to pop him with a scoped rifle, that may cause all sorts of fallout. (You weren't in immediate danger, the guy wasn't invading your home, etc - lots of states - including those with castle doctrine, wouldn't clear you in that situation).
Click to expand...

Most states I believe also have a clause about "immediate danger to others" that would protect you in that case (I'm pretty sure a guy walking around shooting at anything and everything qualifies). And if you do go to court, I highly doubt that a jury would convict you.

As for what I would do... I would very likely leave. I don't have the weapons or the training to go about solving the problem of a guy indiscriminately firing at people in an open area. If I get cornered, well too bad for him. But at my current level of armament and training, I wouldn't be engaging him unless I had no other choice.

Now, assuming I traveled with my rifle and gear in the car AND I had taken the training that I can't quite afford right now, I probably would be a bit more open to trying to take him, but I wouldn't do it lightly. All the police are likely to know is that "there is a guy in x location who is shooting at people". If I decide to shoot him, then I become a "guy in that area who is shooting at people". And I'm sure that with a rifle and whatever else I have with me, I would look like a much greater threat than a guy in a t shirt and a pistol.
 
Telekinesis said:
All the police are likely to know is that "there is a guy in x location who is shooting at people". If I decide to shoot him, then I become a "guy in that area who is shooting at people".
Click to expand...
This is something everyone who carries a firearm needs to think over in advance, IMO.

It's important to realize that engaging an active shooter to save innocent lives may very well cost you your own life at the hands of confused LEOs. It's unfortunate, but it's far from impossible.

For me personally, if I wasn't prepared to lay down my life for a stranger, I wouldn't carry a firearm at all. I know many people will disagree with that, and that's fine. Not interested in debating it; it's just something I came to terms with over the last few years.
 
Realistically, sitting at home and I hear gunfire in the street?

It's happened here. I hit the deck and call 911.
 
Watching the video, most states (not sure about California) would authorize a law abiding citizen to shoot the assailant in lawful defense of others based upon imminent fear of death or great bodily harm of others.

From the 4th floor, given time and ability to prop a firearm and aim, would be a reasonable shot with a standard handgun and an easy shot with a rifle. That's 4 floors down, and he's about 40' out, so call it about 60' total shot to a slow moving man sized target.

My only hesitation is that he's on pavement, which would certainly cause a ricochet of your bullet if you miss.

I think you brace yourself and take a calculated shot(s) to stop him, assuming you have lawful authority in your state to carry and defend others.
 
If I am riding along and you shoot at me from the middle of an intersection??
I am going to make you a hood ornament and quickly look for a wall.
 
Lead - yeah, it looked to be about 20-25 yards from the POV of the camera. Many people routinely shoot that distance with handguns - it's not a difficult shot especially if you have a rest.

So the apartment POV isn't limited to just rifles - but shotguns (as mentioned above, that's within easy range for 00 or slugs, and even bird shot at 25 yards will do a heck of a lot more than just sting a little). Handguns are quite viable at that range as well.

The way the incident ends, was the LEO's end up killing the man when he pointed his weapon at them. Judging by the video footage and the result, it is very clearly a worst-case "suicide by cop" scenario where the bad guy has no qualms whatsoever about how far to go to convince LEO's to end his life.
 
The first guy that drove by should have turned the wheel 1/4 turn to the left, end of problem. Iowa law states that you, (or an innocent party), must be in imminent danger to act; Therefore you could legally engage. Though it's tough to say what you would do until it is happening.
 
I saw this on the news, the guy was literally in the middle of the street shooting at passing cars as they turned down the street he was standing in. Then traffic slowed and he walked into the middle of a big intersection and shot passing cars, these weren't turning passed by pretty quickly. Wonder where all his misses went, looked like a bunch of glass storefronts down there.

The whole thing was very bizarre and very zombie-like for lack of a better description of the whole situation.

I reckon had it been me, I'd have floored it, and if I could have hit him I would have. But my first reaction to a shooter while I'm in a car is to increase acceleration to make his shot harder while getting down as low as I can. I wanna get out of there. One person looked like they got hit and pulled over fast. I suppose had that happened to me, now I can't get away and this guy is shooting folks and he already shot me and prevented my escape, I'm taking him out.

First thing is to get out of there though. Shooting it out with this guy given the layout would have been bad without a rifle. But this is one of the reasons I carry, being in the wrong place at the wrong time --that is what happened to each and every person that drove by and got shot. And they had nowhere else to go but by him.

I suppose had I seen it first and could have avoided the turn, I would have. Then perhaps back up and try to block off that street so others couldn't make the turn. Then barricade myself behind the car, and if he came to me, well, that is why I carry.

Given the footage, if he pulled you into it by shooting you and/or disabling your car, I think it would instantly be deemed justified, no doubt about it.
 
Tennessee is another state at extends self-defense to defense of innocent third parties (beyond self and immediate family).

The exaggerated hoopla over the killing of Kitty Genovese (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitty_Genovese if this was not in your lifetime), particularly the snarks by Harlon Ellison against those who "did not want to get involved", led me to change my attitude forty years ago toward intervention if police are not immediately present.

You would have to have a clear understanding of the situation, clear lines of fire, and be the last man standing with empty hands when the police arrived. Then you could be subjected to a prosecutor scripted by Dick Wolf right out of Lawn Odor ranting about vigilantees taking the law into their own hands.

On the other hand, one could end up with a "deer in the headlights" blank stare trying to comprehend the situation and becoming one of the victims.
 
My concern is the 'clear understanding' part. It's hard enough to articulate your own mens rea when you are in a defensive shooting, if you intervene for a third party, you are claiming to know theirs. When people ask the same question about you being caught inside a convenience store when violence breaks out, what do you do, the answer is to get out.

What makes this one SLIGHTLY different, is that you are possibly in a perch where you can watch safely, and if you do have a rifle, take some time to make a decision. (And no, I am NOT engaging him with birdshot at 25 yards.) If you saw that he was clearly not a victim of some kind, that no one was shooting back at him, and clearly someone was going to get hurt waiting for the police, then you might be in a position where you could take the shot. (But if I did, I would still be waiting with my hands behind my head, hoping I hadn't SERIOUSLY screwed the pooch.)
 
I would run the guy down with my car--that way I would not be taking a chance of hitting someone-one-else with a bullet.
 
HOWARD J said:
I would run the guy down with my car--that way I would not be taking a chance of hitting someone-one-else with a bullet.
Click to expand...
This has been mentioned by a few different people so far.

The problem I see with this is you're basically giving the guy a head-on shot at you, which is your choice, obviously. The thing is, you're responsible for your vehicle, whether you neutralize the threat or not. If you are shot while attempting to run the gunman over, and you survive, its very likely that you'll be unable to adequately control your vehicle.

You may hit and injure/kill a bystander, or drive through a shop window or something, and you could (I would think certainly) be held liable for damage and/or hospital bills, not to mention the possibility of being sued.

Because of this possibility, this is a worse option than stopping your car and using it as cover while engaging the gunman with your own firearm, IMHO. And it's a significantly worse option than just speeding along and getting out of there.
 
If I missed him with my car ( and he did not kill me) I would take your advice & jump out of my car( use it for cover) & open fire on the gentleman with the gun---if I killed him I could expect to be sued by his relatives if I was not prosecuted for endangering civilians.
I just don't feel like running away.
 
If I was in my car and he pulled the gun I would try my best to swerve and hit him.

If I saw him in advance I would accelerate quickly and swerve and hit him.

If I was in one of the condo's/high rises and in my current gun friendly state i'd grab my rifle engage him in conversation as the guy in the video did and if he shot at anyone else or took aim at me I would shoot him.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

P
  • Locked
Do You Ever Comply?
2 3
Replies
54
Views
2K
strambo
S
M
  • Locked
What would you do?
2
Replies
34
Views
1K
Fred Fuller
F
P
  • Locked
What would you do in this situation?
Replies
13
Views
628
SRYnidan
S
Trunk Monkey
  • Locked
What Do You Do?
2
Replies
48
Views
3K
TikkaShooter
T
S
  • Locked
Standing in line... what would you do?
2 3
Replies
71
Views
4K
TonyB
T
Back
Top