Shooting Old Double Barrel Shotguns?

[tark]

https://www.gunsandammo.com/editorial/should-you-shoot-old-damascus-barreled-shotgun/388460

https://www.nrafamily.org/content/gun-safety-damascus-barreled-shotguns-2/

My friend had a Parker Bros shotgun with damascus steel barrels. He shot it a lot with light smokeless loads. I would never shoot it. Walk hangers to me.

This happened decades ago, but Double Gun Journal decided to blow up a trashed out Parker with Damascus barrels. Now, this is not a recommendation to try this, it is simply what happened to one shotgun at that particular time. The gun was in good, tight, functional condition except for cosmetic issues and the last few inches of barrel were mashed flat. They cut off the bad parts and went to work. They started off with trap loads and worked their way up to field loads. The gun ate em' up and spit them out. Same thing for short magnums. In disbelief, they tried a few 3" Magnums in the 2 3/4" chamber. Nothing. Two proof loads in each barrel had the same result. Now beyond shocked, they proceeded to make up custom loads beyond proof pressures. The right barrel burst at 38,000 PSI !!!!

Now, Parkers were perhaps the finest shotguns ever made in that era, in this country, but this was beyond sanity.

I would , in no way, tell you to shoot that old gun ., with any loads, without getting a clean bill of health from a gunsmith. I would start by suspending the naked barrels from a string and tapping them with a dinner knife. If they don't ring like a bell, forget shooting them. They are coming becoming unsoldered

 

[eastbank]

i shoot a few older doubles, all with steel barrels now. i shoot 1 ounce of # 5-6-7.5 shot at 1150 fps with red dot loaded on a mec 9000, two of my favorits are a remington and a ithaca both made in the 30,s(12ga,s with 2.75" chambers). with no ill affects with well over 1000 rounds fired at small game and clay games.

 

[paul harm]

Tark, I have those issues of DGJ. They only published articles by Sherman Bell who along with Tom Armburst who had the pressure testing equipment. They did the testing, not thr DGJ. The Parker blew at 32,000psi, not 38,000psi. He tried 3 and 3.5" shells in 12ga guns, and 10ga Damascus guns with 2 7/8" chambers. In 12ga, over 40 Damascus barreled guns were tested - all past with 12,400psi proof loads.Most of these had chambers shorter than 2 3/4".
Ringing the barrels suspended from your finger by using the barrel lug only tells you if there is a loose rib, nothing more. It can still be shot without blowing up. You'll just know if an expensive repair is in order. Usually about 400 to 450 to relay the ribs and the cost of rebluing or redoing the Damascus, another 4 or 500.

 

[paul harm]

Should have said all past with 18,400psi, not 12,400.

 

[22250Rem]

And many, many of the old boys are cheaply made Belgian guns that handle like a boat anchor and have zero parts availability, to say nothing of how roughly they may have been treated previously.

........ Like this one that an uncle of mine picked up in the 1950's to hang over the fireplace but not to shoot.. . Did some research on it a few years ago. It's one of those inexpensive Belgian shotguns patterned off more expensive guns that were sold in large numbers in the U.S. in the late 19th, early 20th century. Considered getting it back into shooting condition and my research led me to decide against it. Especially after discussing it with a gunsmith I know. The Damascus barrels on these were low budget to begin with and not like the Damascus steel of the more expensive guns of that era. This one doesn't even list a manufacturer, just has a name on one side, , and some Belgian proof marks on the underside. Mosin77 is correct with the zero parts availability and if the OP's gun in question can be determined to be one of these old Belgian doubles, ( there are still a lot of them floating around) then all the professional advice I received on mine and my own research all point to wall hanger status only. That's what mine is but at least it looks good hanging on the wall. A nice interior decoration touch, IMHO.

 

[paul harm]

The last 20 guns Sherman Bell tried to blow up had the cheap Belgium twist Damascus barrels and none of them blew up with Remington proof loads. Bell also thought they were weaker but found out differently. So many " gunsmiths " who don't know any thing about Damascus barrels are always commenting on how unsafe they are. 22250Rem, just what is " all your research " on the safety of Damascus barrels ? Is all the professional advice you get from qualified individuals that have have actually tested Damascus barrels ? Dr. Drew House has a web site and in it he shows different styles of Damascus barrels, old shotgun shells and pressures developed back around the turn of the century, old shooting events, and so forth. If anyone is inclined to educate their self there's some mighty interesting reading. SAAMI standards started in 1926 so before then there were no limits on pressures in factory shotgun shells. Many hunting loads were 2000psi higher than shells produced today so don't let anyone fool you into believing the old guns just used low pressure loads and aren't safe for todays ammo.

 

[22250Rem]

I just researched Damascus barrels by reading what I could and by talking to a gunsmith I've known for 30 years. I've read of Damascus barrels that survive modern loads but the general consensus seems to be that not all Damascus barrels were created equal and sometimes after many years and a lot of rounds they sometimes start to split or bulge but don't necessarily just explode. Even the famed Parker Bros. shotguns used Damascus barrels once upon a time but they were of much higher quality and strength than the no name Belgian budget guns like I have. I guess the el-cheapo shotguns were what gave those barrels a bad rep.

 

[Thunderchicken]

Dr. Drew House has a web site and in it he shows different styles of Damascus barrels, old shotgun shells and pressures developed back around the turn of the century, old shooting events, and so forth.

Thanks for this. It *is* super interesting. Turns out there is some “celebrity” named “Drew House,” but the author of the site is “Drew Hause.” To save anyone else having to dig, I think it is at https://sites.google.com/a/damascusknowledge.com/www/home . If that isn’t the actual site Paul recommended, my apologies and I’m sure he’ll let us know.

 

[tark]

Tark, I have those issues of DGJ. They only published articles by Sherman Bell who along with Tom Armburst who had the pressure testing equipment. They did the testing, not thr DGJ. The Parker blew at 32,000psi, not 38,000psi. He tried 3 and 3.5" shells in 12ga guns, and 10ga Damascus guns with 2 7/8" chambers. In 12ga, over 40 Damascus barreled guns were tested - all past with 12,400psi proof loads.Most of these had chambers shorter than 2 3/4".
Ringing the barrels suspended from your finger by using the barrel lug only tells you if there is a loose rib, nothing more. It can still be shot without blowing up. You'll just know if an expensive repair is in order. Usually about 400 to 450 to relay the ribs and the cost of rebluing or redoing the Damascus, another 4 or 500.

Thanks for the corrections I was going from memory...

 

[CoalTrain49]

The last 20 guns Sherman Bell tried to blow up had the cheap Belgium twist Damascus barrels and none of them blew up with Remington proof loads. Bell also thought they were weaker but found out differently. So many " gunsmiths " who don't know any thing about Damascus barrels are always commenting on how unsafe they are. 22250Rem, just what is " all your research " on the safety of Damascus barrels ? Is all the professional advice you get from qualified individuals that have have actually tested Damascus barrels ? Dr. Drew House has a web site and in it he shows different styles of Damascus barrels, old shotgun shells and pressures developed back around the turn of the century, old shooting events, and so forth. If anyone is inclined to educate their self there's some mighty interesting reading. SAAMI standards started in 1926 so before then there were no limits on pressures in factory shotgun shells. Many hunting loads were 2000psi higher than shells produced today so don't let anyone fool you into believing the old guns just used low pressure loads and aren't safe for todays ammo.

Lets not get carried away here. The only way to actually know if an old barrel can take a modern load is to have it tested in a lab with the proper equipment. Any testing anyone did on 40 firearms (Bell) doesn't equate to any old shotgun being safe to shoot with SAMMI loads. Even a shotgun that passed a proof in 1920 may not be safe to shoot today because of wall thickness, regardless if it was made from fluid steel or Damascus ribbons. US manufacturers never have proofed their barrels anyway, at least they didn't document it in any traceable manner like stamping a barrel flat. They just made their barrels hell for stout by increasing the wall thickness which was good if you happened to like a heavy shotgun. In the UK a shotgun can't be exported without the barrels being reproofed. Why, because they used a minimum wall thickness that would pass a proof test, which most all of them did. If they didn't, well the barrels were damaged in the testing and not fit for sale.

Proofing is a type of (potentially destructive) testing whereby a firearm is discharged with appropriate dimension ammunition that has been overloaded with powder on purpose. Shooting a round overcharged with powder produces higher than normal pressure inside the barrels and action when the gun is fired. If the gun can withstand the increased pressure produced by an ‘overloaded’ round, it will withstand the significantly lower pressure of standard factory ammunition. Guns are measured before and after testing and fired remotely while being held in fixtures inside secured rooms for safety reasons. Proofing is a pass or fail test, there is no middle ground. Guns that fail may experience a bulged or split barrel, or in extreme situations, action failure which can result in shattered parts.

You seem to be missing the fact they we're talking about barrel condition, not ammo. It has nothing to do with SAMMI ammo specs. The topic of the thread is a particular shotgun being labeled as a non-shooter so lets try to stay focused on that.

It's quite possible to load light for guns in question (I did it) which increases your chances of not loosing any fingers when shooting a shotgun that was built 100 years ago with a damascus barrel. Again, damascus and SAMMI isn't the issue. The issue is barrel condition.

I would strongly recommend that anyone who wants to shoot anything built before WW2 keep their loads at or below 8550 psi. That's a 3 ton proof which was the standard in the UK before WW2.

But shoot whatever suits your fancy with whatever ammo you choose and good luck.

 

[LaneP]

Anecdotal to this question, my dad bought a number of original muzzle loading long guns in the 50's and 60's when people were practically giving them away for nothing, including an 1827 Springfield musket, an 1840's dated Tower musket and a Parker double bbl 10 gauge caplock shotgun. He would always take his new acquisition, load it up with a stout charge of BP and a heavy bullet or shot load, tie it to an old tire and fire it from behind cover with a piece of twine. If it survived (and they all did) he felt confident enough to shoulder fire it.

 

[CoalTrain49]

Anecdotal to this question, my dad bought a number of original muzzle loading long guns in the 50's and 60's when people were practically giving them away for nothing, including an 1827 Springfield musket, an 1840's dated Tower musket and a Parker double bbl 10 gauge caplock shotgun. He would always take his new acquisition, load it up with a stout charge of BP and a heavy bullet or shot load, tie it to an old tire and fire it from behind cover with a piece of twine. If it survived (and they all did) he felt confident enough to shoulder fire it.

At least he tested it. Some folks here put their trust in a magazine article as gospel.

 

[paul harm]

Bell did his test with Tom Armburst. Tom runs a business testing shotgun loads and barrels. I know many guys who have sent pet loads to Tom for testing. So, this magazine article, which apparently you haven't read, and really have no right commenting on, did give results someone could feel confident using or referring to. Does it show ANY Damascus barrel is safe, no. But it does show that many old , what were considered wall hangers, could not be blown up with Remington proof loads. The same loads Remington uses to proof their barrels. Bell measured wall thickness and how loose the barrels were before and after the proof loads were used. One or two became a couple of thousand more loose. Lets see. Some had loose ribs, pitting in the barrels, and a 8 to .010 feeler gauge could be put between the barrels and breech face and all that happened was a .012 feeler gauge could be inserted. None blew. Just what do you want ? Maybe he needed to wear a white jacket and have stainless tables to make it a lab ?
No I didn't miss anything when a barrel is labeled unsafe to shoot by WHO ? What made someone qualified to label something unsafe ? Williams Gunsight, a business that's been around for years making gunsights, has their business near me. They sell and stock many, many guns. Any Damascus barrel SxS they take in on trade gets labeled " Do not shoot, unsafe". I ask Terry, the gun buyer, why. He said because of this day and age of lawsuits, we're just covering our a$$. It has nothing to do whether they're actually unsafe.
The USA doesn't have a national proof house like many foreign countries but at least Remington and Parker [ and probably many others ] did their own proofing. No they didn't stamp the barrels, but that doesn't mean they weren't proofed. Remington use to advertise all their barrels [ back when they were still offering Damascus ] were proofed and safe to use with modern smokeless loads. And some of those duck hunting loads were at a higher pressure than loads today.

 

[Jackiesman]

If it's in a gunshop labelled as a "NON-SHOOTER", chances are a gunsmith has already looked at it and deemed it so. Since you didn't mention Damascus vs. Fluid Steel, etc., I'd suggest you leave the determination of shootability to the pros.
Just opening and closing is not necessarily 'good working order."
If you decide to go ahead and test one anyway, be sure you are behind cover (not concealment), with a long string on the trigger, and the gun solidly mounted.

Been there, done that with my dad’s old hammerless (and NO safety) 12 ga savage with a Damascus barrel. It worked so I killed a nice hen mallard with it. Nephew now has it and it still shoots light loads of shells.