Shooting reduced loads out of inline muzzleloaders

[Snidely70431]

Snidely70431,
I am in the same mindset as you. I wanted to ease my way into muzzleloading at minimal cost and complexity. I bought a used Optima Pro for $175 and started out by shooting my case Lee TL452-230-TC's with a T/C yellow sabot with Blackhorn 209 and a Federal 209A primer. I got decent accuracy out to 100 yards (3"). It felt and made as much smoke as shooting my Remington 788 in .308 Winchester, but the cost was quite a bit more per shot. To reduce costs, I experimented with Lee REAL bullets, cast roundballs and a cast Minieball projectile. I don't need to vaporize a deer with 150g equivalent BP so I use as little as 70g by volume.

By far, the least expensive powder I've found has been Alliant BlackMZ. Sportsmans Warehouse was selling them at $10 for a 1 pound jug so I bought all they had and now have probably more than I'll ever shoot. The powder meters terribly (like cat litter) but if shot by weight with premeasured charges, it is quite accurate. I now shoot mostly the Lee REAL bullet lubed with 2:1 Beeswax:Vaseline and an overpowder cardboard disk under it. I make the disks out of cereal boxes punched out with a sharpened piece of pipe. It took a little time to sharpen the pipe and a little time to punch out the cards, but the cost is essentially zero and you can make a lot of cards that will last a very long time.

70 grains (by volume) is about the minimum charge of this powder. I've worked down to 50g, but the shots get really smokey and it just feels like the ignition is inconsistent. At 25-50 yards, it probably doesn't matter but at 100 yards, the groups get pretty wild.

If I were to hunt with it, I wouldn't mind using Blackhorn 209, a sabot and a good hollowpoint 45 caliber bullet, but the cost is too high for range plinking.

It's a lot of fun shooting this gun at the range for a few hours at a time. I probably shoot about 6 shot in a 20 minute session compared to 50 rifle or 100-150 handgun shots in the same time.

Since then I found an Optima V2 for $150 and have been shooting it too, but quite honestly it is so close to the Optima Pro that they are pretty much the same gun.

Maybe one day I'll get a caplock or better yet a flintlock, but with the high cost of these guns, it may be a long time.

You can buy leather craft hollow hole punches on Ebay and from Tandy leather that will work quite well for the cardboard disc.

 

[Snidely70431]

While looking for something else I came across an interesting article about firing undersized projectiles designed for cartridge arms out of a muzzleloader using sabots and/or paper patches. The idea was to test the performance of the projectiles at terminal velocities, but I'm sure muzzleloader enthusiasts will find other inspiration from the article. This is a link to the article:
https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0812/0812.4934.pdf

 

[paul harm]

Last time I ordered from Grafs it was 20#s - the haz mat didn't hurt as bad. I also sometimes use it in my Parker or Remington hammer shotguns when I go to SxS events. If I use 70grs of FFF and 1oz of shot I only get 100 shots from a pound. You guys can get into traditional BP guns. Just go to gun shows and look for them. Hardly anyone wants them anymore with all the inline crap out there and they can be picked up for under a 100. A couple of years ago I bought a TC 54 Renegade for 80$ and gave it to my granddaughter. She shot a nice deer off hand at 60 yards. Snidely, if you like all that about shooting a muzzleloader, think how much more it would be doing it with a real muzzleloader like a caplock or flintlock. Three years ago I shot a deer with a 72cal matchlock [ 12ga shotgun barrel with a 715 patched RB ] I built. Now that was fun. I just target shoot now, but once you learn what to do or not to do, shooting traditional guns aren't any harder than the new fangly inlines, and to me more fun. Back in the day when all I shot were muzzleloading revolvers [ 1858 Remington copies ] I could keep 10 shots in a 4" circle at 25 yards. Can't today - getting too old with bad eyes to see the sights clearly.

 

[paul harm]

I'm not even sure what to check with a inline, but could you load with 100grs of powder [ I'm assuming you're using pellets ] , push a slug down the barrel, and mark the ramrod how far it went in ? After shooting it, push a slug down the barrel with no powder and then pull the breech plug to see how much room there is - maybe pour some loose powder or parts of a pellet and see how much farther the slug could be pushed back. Or maybe load it with one pellet , seat the slug, then remove the breech plug to see if it seated properly ? I'm not sure why they say not to use just 50grs. Would the slug go past the rifling into the chamber ? Would it have to jump a gap to hit the rifling ? With a traditional gun the rifling goes all the way to the breech plug so you could load it as light as you want. Good luck - Paul

 

[Snidely70431]

I'm not even sure what to check with a inline, but could you load with 100grs of powder [ I'm assuming you're using pellets ] , push a slug down the barrel, and mark the ramrod how far it went in ? After shooting it, push a slug down the barrel with no powder and then pull the breech plug to see how much room there is - maybe pour some loose powder or parts of a pellet and see how much farther the slug could be pushed back. Or maybe load it with one pellet , seat the slug, then remove the breech plug to see if it seated properly ? I'm not sure why they say not to use just 50grs. Would the slug go past the rifling into the chamber ? Would it have to jump a gap to hit the rifling ? With a traditional gun the rifling goes all the way to the breech plug so you could load it as light as you want. Good luck - Paul

I use loose powder - Pyrodex RS, Tripple 7 - and .490 round balls (about 178 grains). I've loaded down as low as 35 grains of powder (weighed, not volume) without any adverse effects. When I load I push the ball down and have no problem telling the difference how it feels when the ball is all the way down.

There is no chamber for the for anything to go down into, although one of my Knight DISC .50's has a breech plug designed for loose powder that has a recessed area about 1/2 inch deep about 1/4 inch in diameter for powder to go into. The breech plug screws into the barrel until the front of it contacts the rear of the rifling. In fact. I bought an extra breech plug for each of my CVA Optimas (one Pro Magnum, one V2), and modified them similarly. I get more reliable ignition with my reduced loads.

 

[drobs]

While looking for something else I came across an interesting article about firing undersized projectiles designed for cartridge arms out of a muzzleloader using sabots and/or paper patches. The idea was to test the performance of the projectiles at terminal velocities, but I'm sure muzzleloader enthusiasts will find other inspiration from the article. This is a link to the article:
https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0812/0812.4934.pdf

That's another fun thing about muzzle loaders, you can stuff just about anything down the barrel. When I was home over Christmas, I shot my Lyman Great Plains percussion rifle for the 1st time. Had fun with some double ball loads (2 patched round balls) and meant to try some undersized ball / projectile loads. Paper patching some 45 acp or 357 mag projectiles could be fun.

While the plastic sabot is a neat modern idea. The idea is not a new one. Historically leather was used as a patch to shoot sub caliber projectiles.
I believe there is a story of Davey Crocket or Daniel Boone using leather patch to shoot a significantly smaller pistol ball out of a rifle.

 

[Snidely70431]

That's another fun thing about muzzle loaders, you can stuff just about anything down the barrel. When I was home over Christmas, I shot my Lyman Great Plains percussion rifle for the 1st. Had fun with some double ball loads (2 patched round balls) and meant to try some undersized ball / projectile loads. Paper patching some 45 acp or 357 mag projectiles could be fun.

While the plastic sabot is a neat modern idea. The idea is not a new one. Historically leather was used as a patch to shoot sub caliber projectiles.
I believe there is a story of Davey Crocket or Daniel Boone using leather patch to shoot a significantly smaller pistol ball out of a rifle.

I hadn't thought about using leather. I have a bunch left over from when I was doing leather crafting.

 

[drobs]

Regarding reduced loads. I dry balled (no powder) a round ball while home. Instead messing around with a puller (which I don't have), I removed the nipple and fed black powder from my flask into the patented breech. Replaced nipple, fired it, and cleared the dry ball. I couldn't tell you how many grains I got in there. Maybe 10 to 15?

 

[Snidely70431]

Regarding reduced loads. I dry balled (no powder) a round ball while home. Instead messing around with a puller (which I don't have), I removed the nipple and fed black powder from my flask into the patented breech. Replaced nipple, fired it, and cleared the dry ball. I couldn't tell you how many grains I got in there. Maybe 10 to 15?

A lot of times just a 209 primer will push the ball out even if the charge misfires.

 

[paul harm]

After what you said I can't understand why you shouldn't shoot reduced loads. Sometimes manufactures just print crap to cover their a$$.

 

[Snidely70431]

After what you said I can't understand why you shouldn't shoot reduced loads. Sometimes manufactures just print crap to cover their a$$.

IN these litigious times, when people will sue at the drop of a hat - and supply the hat - you can hardly blame them. It does discourage experimentation, though.

 

[Snidely70431]

For our local hunter safety program I would often load my 2 .50 caliber inline rifles with 35-50 grains of Pyrodex "P" and patched round ball. Accuracy was excellent and recoil almost non-existent. Of course, we were only shooting at 25 yards, but beginning shooters were very pleased with near-bullseyes to take home. I have also loaded a single 5 grain Pyrodex pellet and sabot plus bullet for similar shooting with very good results.

I think that should be 'a single 50 grain Pyrodex pellet". 5 grains of most propellants is less than a 1/4 teaspoon.
For another thread I ran 20 grains of Tripple 7 behind a 176 grain .50 PRB through a chronograph and got 1032 fps. When you double your powder you do not double either your velocity or your muzzle energy., though you do get a lot more muzzle flash, noise and wear-and -tear on your weapon.

My main rifle has a 1:28 twist and seems to shoot most consistently at around 800 fps. A 176 grain PRB at 800 fps gives a muzzle energy of 250 foot pounds, the equivalent of a medium load in a 38 S&W Special.

 

[Snidely70431]

Just got through firing 5 .490 PRB, weight about 176 grains, out of my Optima Pro Magnum using standard 209 Federal primers and 15 grains of Aliant Black MZ at about 25 feet from a rest with open sights. I got a group that could be covered with a half dollar about an inch above point of aim. I chronographed 2 of the shots and got 754 and 816 fps.

A couple of days ago I chronographed 12.5 grains of Triple 7 out of a Navy Arms Country Boy with a 1:32 twist and got a reading of 944 fps. I replaced the standard #11 nipple with a musket cap nipple and ignition seems to be more reliable and the caps are MUCH easier to put on. Triple 7 seems to be somewhat hotter than Black MZ at reduced loads, but I have not done enough testing to make a definitive statement.

I weigh all loads with a digital scale to within a tenth of a grain; at these load levels volume measurements would be a waste of time.