Not sure where to put this. This is how I under stand this. when shooting from a bench. Rifle is on sand bags or rest. Shooting hand goes on trigger. The other hand goes on bench by sand bag or rest. Now, here is where things seem to run amuck. The recoil seems to Make the muzzle jump, sending shots all over the target. When I use my non fireing hand to hold the gun down I get better results, and better groups. What do you think I am doing wrong? thanks for the input.
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Legionnaire
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Here is my BENCH technique.
Edit: This is my BENCH technique. I mostly shoot with a sling in the field.
- Rifle forend on rest ... same position every time
- Butt stock on a beanbag or rear bag
- Shooting hand lightly on rifle, with minor pressure pulling the stock into my shoulder
- Non-shooting hand tucked back so as to grip the rear bag under the stock; squeeze the bag to raise the rear stock slightly
- Relax
- Scope should be on target, and rock steady; if it moves at all as I breathe, I need to resettle the rear bag
- Once everything is solid, breathe, exhale about half, and squeeze trigger slowly until it breaks
- Allow rifle to recoil naturally; don't fight it
Edit: This is my BENCH technique. I mostly shoot with a sling in the field.
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saiga308
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may want to try a muzzle break
i have good results with this on my saiga 308
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Stainless-...eLfm:sc:USPSFirstClass!84780!US!-1:rk:29:pf:0
I, have been doing that same thing, and the gun goes off the muzzle recoil seems to put shots all over.
badkarmamib
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How consistent is your cheek weld? Putting different pressure down or sideways will cause the rifle to move differently in recoil.
Nature Boy
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Give us a little more info on your set up. What are you shooting? What are you using for a front/rear rest?
A picture of your set up would help
PS. I’ll add that managing recoil (having the rifle track straight under recoil) has resulted in one of the biggest improvements in my shooting accuracy and something I’m constantly focusing on.
A picture of your set up would help
PS. I’ll add that managing recoil (having the rifle track straight under recoil) has resulted in one of the biggest improvements in my shooting accuracy and something I’m constantly focusing on.
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Doublehelix
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Muzzle recoil should happen *after* the bullet leave the barrel and should not affect the POI, right? My guess is that you are moving the POA when you pull the trigger somehow.
Legionnaire
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Okay. I interpreted this as meaning your off hand was up near the forend rest rather than a bag under the butt stock. My misunderstanding.
edwardware
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Nature Boy
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That makes sense but I suspect there’s some influence on POI if your rifle isn’t tracking. At the very least you’re having to rebuild your shooting position after every shot and that’s not good for consistency.
If MOA all day is your goal this might not matter, but if you’re trying to stay under the .3’s you better believe it matters
edwardware
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No. Primary recoil is an equal and opposite response to acceleration of the bullet, and happens at the same time.
Doublehelix
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Makes sense. I know with pistols and the shorter barrels we consider a shot to be "made" as soon as the trigger is pulled, irrespective of recoil.
So if recoil affects POI, how could we ever hit a target? (A legitimate, sincere question, not confrontational.)
Nature Boy
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And if your rifle is off axis when you fire, either because it’s in a bind relative to the front/rear support, or because of the contact between the shooter and the rifle, it would influence the bullets path.
Is that right?
cheygriz
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This sounds like there could be a trigger control problem. How much recoil does your rifle have??
Are you flinching, perhaps?
Are you flinching, perhaps?
Legionnaire
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Nature Boy, I believe you are right. The trick is consistency. If a fundamentally accurate rifle is "throwing rounds all over the place," there is something inconsistent in the technique. A less-than-perfect technique can still give good accuracy if it is applied consistently.
edwardware, that's a good article. Thanks for the link.
edwardware, that's a good article. Thanks for the link.
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Lots of good thoughts already expressed. A few things that strike me:
- The OP is assuming it's muzzle jump that is causing shots to "go all over the place". In my experience I've never had muzzle jump be the cause of inacuracies.
- "Holding the rifle down" appears to be compensating or alleviating whatever *is* causing shots to go all over the place - which could be a whole host of things.
- I'd *first* make sure the gun is not the issue. For example: Is the action tight in the stock? If scoped, are the rings and scope solid? Is the barrel binding somewhere in the stock? Is this a gun that previously shot well and all-of-a-sudden now does not? Does accuracy / behavior (on target) change with different ammo?
- A possibly quick way to check the above is to have someone else shoot it. If they shoot it well then it would seem the gun is ok, and the OP can move to technique issues.
- Trigger control is a big nut to crack and can cause significant issues. (I used to be a Boy Scouts instructor and this was one of the more difficult things to have them get right. What someone considers "squeezing" I might consider "jerking".) Is body position at the bench correct? It's designed to provide a stable foundation so when you relax your muscles things are solid. If your bones (literally) aren't properly positioned this becomes problematic. Is there any muscle tension? (This is common when positioning isn't quite right and folks start doing things like tightening up a shoulder to hold the gun on target.) Is breathing technique correct and done the same way every single shot? As another poster commented - is the gun being placed on the rests in exactly the same position every time? Is the rest really solid? Does unusual amounts of pressure (either unusually lite or unusually hard) amounts of pressure need to be placed between the cheek and the stock to get sight alignment? (When I first started shooting with an adjustable cheek piece I wasn't shooting well and I couldn't figure out why. I lowered the cheek piece just a little. It turns out that with it being a smidge too high my cheek weld had to be so tight I was imparting a bunch of force that was causing inconsistencies. By making that small change my groups improved considerably.)
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edwardware
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By providing for consistent recoil. Imagine the difference in POI between free-recoil benchrest technique and heavily constrained, slung-up prone hi-power technique.
The POI effect will be small with heavy, light-recoiling rifles, and huge with light magnum rifles.
edwardware
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To expand on this: interaction with the rifle adds variability to recoil, which is why benchrest minimizes that interaction. A good benchrest shooter barely touches the rifle at the shot, and recoil is mild enough that the movement is very small, and directed straight back by stock and bag shape.
For field rifles, this free-recoil technique would have the rifle flying of the bench, and total recoil is great enough that variability therein is destructive to accuracy. We have to accept the variability of touching the stock, but doing so lowers total variability.
So, good benchrest groups are <0.1, and good field rifle (bench/bag) groups are <0.4.
MTMilitiaman
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I don't do a lot of shooting from the bench. Normally I shoot from the bench only to establish an initial zero, which I will then confirm from a more practical field position, like prone with brace sling or over my pack. My rifles are meant to be carried in the field and used from a variety of positions. I don't have any heavy, purpose built long range/accuracy rig right now. In fact, I mostly do about everything with my AR-15. With these types of rifles, I try to mimic field positions, so I will have control of the forend over the bag up front with my support hand, applying pressure to the rear with the angled foregrip (or with a traditional bolt action, with the front sling swivel), intentionally pretty much identical to how I would shoot the gun over an improvised rest in the field.
Most purpose built long range/accuracy rigs are built heavy. Weight adds inertia, which makes the rifle for stable, and adding metal and material to barrels, receivers, stocks, ect makes them stiffer and more rigid. On the rare occasions I shoot one of these rigs, like my brother's AR-50, back before he sold it, I would adopt the more traditional benchrest position, allowing forend to either sit neutrally on bag or rest, or with slight tension leaning into a bipod, and then using my support hand back at the shoulder to make minor adjustments and keep the rifle welded to my body. The trick is to get your position set up so that you're not wrestling the rifle. The point of aim should be natural. If you have to muscle the rifle to keep it steady, then you need to adjust your body, your rest, or both. The point of shooting from the bench is to remove as much human error as possible. This still requires the human to be patient and proficient. Trying to muscle a rifle into place in order to rush a shot is how groups open up.
Shooting a rifle under muscle tension is more like shooting from field positions and improvised rests, and in my experience does best with a more aggressive stance. I like to get a clamp grip as far out on the forend as possible so I can really drive my muzzle, but I am six and a half feet tall, so your results may vary.
Most purpose built long range/accuracy rigs are built heavy. Weight adds inertia, which makes the rifle for stable, and adding metal and material to barrels, receivers, stocks, ect makes them stiffer and more rigid. On the rare occasions I shoot one of these rigs, like my brother's AR-50, back before he sold it, I would adopt the more traditional benchrest position, allowing forend to either sit neutrally on bag or rest, or with slight tension leaning into a bipod, and then using my support hand back at the shoulder to make minor adjustments and keep the rifle welded to my body. The trick is to get your position set up so that you're not wrestling the rifle. The point of aim should be natural. If you have to muscle the rifle to keep it steady, then you need to adjust your body, your rest, or both. The point of shooting from the bench is to remove as much human error as possible. This still requires the human to be patient and proficient. Trying to muscle a rifle into place in order to rush a shot is how groups open up.
Shooting a rifle under muscle tension is more like shooting from field positions and improvised rests, and in my experience does best with a more aggressive stance. I like to get a clamp grip as far out on the forend as possible so I can really drive my muzzle, but I am six and a half feet tall, so your results may vary.
Curator
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Some lightweight rifles shooting heavy bullets need to be held down onto the front bag when shot from the bench. I agree with 95% of what has been said by the previous posters but no way my Thompson Center Encore 500 S&W magnum rifle can shoot nice round groups without being held down. Some of this is no doubt due to the rifle stock's drop at its heel but other light weight rifles I have shot off the bench have shown the need to hold them down with the support hand, An alternative to this is using the British "standing rifle rest" made for testing the heavy caliber rifles like .500, .577 and .600 H&H Nitro magnum.
Legionnaire
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So I had an interesting experience yesterday. First time to the range with a new-to-me Remington 700 Ti in .260 Ackley. It's a featherweight, weighing in at 6.5 pounds scoped. I experienced exactly what the OP described. My proven bench / prone technique did not work well with the 6.5 pound rifle: my recoil control was inconsistent and my groups were no better than two inches. The trigger was heavier than I am used to, which didn't help; I measured it between six and seven pounds when I got home. I didn't have a sling with me, and I no doubt didn't let the pencil-thin barrel cool sufficiently between shots. Last night I adjusted the trigger to 3.5 and the next time I go out, I will take a sling and sling up as described in the article posted by edwardware. We shall see!
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I shoot bag only supported forend when benching a rifle - .308, 30-06, .300 mag
What supporting and applying pressure with your non-trigger hand is doing is providing a more stable platform for your rifle and YOU. With only one hand on the rifle your form has to be repeatable. Any changes will be magnified through the unstable forend.
A .22 rimfire or .223 bolt is a great way to work on muscle memory and form without recoil playing into the equation. This is what I use when instructing new shooters or seasoned shooters experiencing problems.
What supporting and applying pressure with your non-trigger hand is doing is providing a more stable platform for your rifle and YOU. With only one hand on the rifle your form has to be repeatable. Any changes will be magnified through the unstable forend.
A .22 rimfire or .223 bolt is a great way to work on muscle memory and form without recoil playing into the equation. This is what I use when instructing new shooters or seasoned shooters experiencing problems.
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