Short barreled 1911 woes?

[Janitor]

Last weekend, I picked up a 1911 after being w/o one for several years (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=165638). Today, I got to the range with it.

It's a Springfield MilSpec Ultra Compact. The size of the piece is great. The only things I have smaller are a Kahr P9 & KelTec P32. And shooting the thing was really nice. It absorbs recoil like only a steel frame can absorb it. It'd be an easy gun to shoot all day.

But ... I had a 10% FTE rate. Out of 100 rounds, fully ten failed to eject. And of those, three of them were still completely in the chamber looking nothing had tried to pull them out at all. The rest had all been pulled about 10%-30% out of the chamber, then the whole thing locked up when the next round got stuffed into it.

Either I'm begining to see why this thing had been traded in. Or ... maybe it's the ammo? (230gn UMC hardball - from a "Mega Pack").

Bummer - the thing is a real joy to shoot otherwise.

 

[Black Majik]

Well its usually the short barrel 1911s that always has the problems. The "general" rule of thumb is the shorter the barrel, the less reliable they become.

But, it may very well be the ammo. Try different types of ammo, the WWB value packs, or American Eagle or other quality factory ammunition.

Next, try different magazines. I'm not sure what are quality magazines for a ultra compact 1911, but research around. Springfield mags are known to be not all that good quality magazines. If they work, great... but most dont.

Also check the extractor tension, it may need fiddlin' with.

Look for a pattern, does it always fail to eject on the 4th round, or 3rd (just examples). Check to see if downloading the mags make the gun more reliable.

Record your results. Good luck.

 

[Janitor]

Yea - I was thinking of trying different ammo in it.

I didn't think the magazines could have anything to do with the pistol not even starting to extract a shell, but I'd be willing to try one, given that I'd like larger cap mags anyway. I know that Wilson 7rd compact mags will work in this. Best rep for reliability I'm aware of. At least - off the rack. I could try one of those I suppose.

No rhyme or reason or pattern to the failures as near as I could tell. Several mag loads shot all rounds w/o incident. Several had one - no pattern I saw to which one (2nd, 3rd, etc). Some mag loads had a 2 or 3 FTEs.

Ahh - extractor tension - now I think we're on to something.

Speaking of extractors. Anyone have anything to say about how Springfield service is, and how they back their warranty? I'm 2nd (3rd if you include the shop) owner on this piece - think they'd deal with it for me under warranty?

Tnx for the ideas.

-

 

[Boarhunter]

I have owned two Kimber Ultra CDP II .45s (3" barrel). The first was horribly unreliable, and after two trips back to the factory, I was told by the factory that I was limp-wristing and that there was nothing wrong with the gun. The dealer, a close friend of mine, knew that after 30 years of shooting (including 1911s) I was not limp-wristing the gun, so he gave me another to try. Lo and behold, 100% reliability.

I think that snubby 1911s are simply harder to make reliable than their longer-barreled brethern.

Try different ammo; send it back to the factory, if you must; try out an identical gun. They can be reliable. There is just a little more effort involved in finding one that is.

Boarhunter

 

[MICHAEL T]

Get a good extractor ,Springers extractors are not the best and gun is used.. Also try a lighter round My compact will shoot 230 but loves 185 silvertips and 160 corBonDPX for carry I bet with the new extractor and good mag you troubles will go away.

 

[ulflyer]

Tuner1911 has had lots of experience with these little ones.

 

[1911Tuner]

Experience

Tuner1911 has had lots of experience with these little ones.

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

That was a simple statementof frustration. A scream would have been simpler, but I couldn't find a suitable simile.

 

[Old Dog]

Then again, some of us get good ones ... the loaded Micro-Compact I picked up on a whim last year required about 200 rounds to break in (yeah, some disconcerting FTFs and FTRBs in the first 150 rounds), but it's been perfect since with about 3K rounds through it to date. I really like the little jewel. And it feeds everything from 165 gr to 230 gr JHPs of all brands ... tremendously accurate with 230 gr Golden Sabers.

 

[Old Fuff]

The Old Fuff will gladly leave the "little ones" to Tuner ...

What he thinks of them wouldn't get past Art's Grandma...

However, when a sub-compact lower is fitted with a Commander upper... Then you have a different story...

 

[DAVE RICHARDS]

From experience. The short barreled 1911's are hit or miss. Some work, some don't. The three Kimbers I had (first one bought, other two replacement guns by Kimber after they couldnt get any one of them to stay working) just would not shoot and stay shooting. Also have read lots of the Springfields and tiny Paras have problems. Again someone that has bought one that works will often say it's "internet rumor" that the guns are problematic. But if they checked around they would find the sub 4" guns are indeed problematic in that many
, many won't work right out of the box. I don't want to ever again pay $850.00-$1000.00 for a gun that may or may not work. It's your money but if I were looking for a small .45 platform I would look at something besides a 1911.

 

[Oleg Volk]

How well do Kahr 45s work?

 

[scott.cr]

I've heard that "micro" 1911s are sensitive to limp-wristing due to high slide velocity. The high slide velocity is supposed to be the problematic portion of the design because the magazine can't lift the (heavy) ammo fast enough for the next round to be stripped and chambered.

I had a Kimber Ultra CDP II that had no problems with Wilson mags. Maybe 2% failure rate with the stock mag. It was very accurate, though a little tiring to fire for extended periods. It really had a way of figuring out you were tired and telling you so in its shot placement. ;-)

 

[Janitor]

I suppose it *could* be limp wristing, but I don't really think it is. This is a steel framed gun that I find _very_ gentle to shoot. I've zero doubt that several hundred rounds in a session wouldn't feel punishing at all. For what it's worth, I was aware of all the problems people had seen with these short barreled 1911s. But after shooting a friends Wilson/Kimber down in Nashville a month or so ago, I became enamoured by the small 1911s. Then - in the shop the other day I picked this one up on a good deal and a whim.

Also - this is not a failure to feed, or failure to fire, or failure to eject. It is specifically a failure to extract. out of 9-10 rounds that didn't extract, at least three of them hadn't even started to move out of the chamber. The rest of the extraction failures only moved out 1/8" or so. When the jam below the "stuck" shell had been cleared (in all cases), the case just slipped right out of the chamber - it wasn't stuck in there at all.

All this may indeed be caused by short cycling caused by too light a bullet (230gn!?!) or limp wristing. Unfortunately, I'm not enough of an expert to know for sure. ("not enough of an expert"? Try replacing that with "I'm clueless enough to ...")

I'm thinking though, that if I knew how to replace/tune an extractor I might be able to mitigate some of the extraction problems I'm seeing.

How well do Kahr 45s work?

I shot one of those at the Bill's Gunshop show where I bought the P9. The Kahr rep had one there, a couple months before their release to market.

Shoots great! Felt a lot like the P9, only recoil is different. Higher amplitude, slower rise time - just as you'd expect. It's not a pistol that's enjoyable enough to shoot 200-300-400 rounds at a session, but certainly not one you'd avoid practice with. In it's own way - fun to shoot.

I don't know how they are overall, but I shot a single box of 50 rounds (230gn Magtech) at the gun show with it, and there were zero ftf or fte problems. Much better than my new SA Ultra Compact.

I think the kinds of short barreled problems we've been reading all about (and *sigh* ... experiancing) are unique to the 1911 action.

-

 

[Old Fuff]

Once upon a time – long ago during the early years of the Viet Nam unpleasantness, before some of our current members were even born, the Old Fuff became enamored with the concept of “super-short” 1911 pistols. They were cute, easy to carry, and for their size made a big hole in things.

But he soon discovered that John Browning knew what he was doing, and that his mission was to design a military pistol – not a pocket piece. He must be spinning in his grave over what some idiots are doing these days...

When you shorten the slide by much more then an inch, a number of things happen. The first is that you lose some critical slide mass. The second is that the recoil spring tunnel gets too short and you have to do weird and convoluted things with recoil springs. The third is that the angle the barrel drops at changes and becomes steeper, and this may confuse some magazines that don’t understand that changes have been made, and changes the locking-unlocking timing. Forth, slide run-up to the cartridge base is shortened (or even eliminated) and the round doesn’t get booted like it should. None of this is good for the reliability department.

When you have a pistol where barrel unlocking is controlled by a caming action (Browning Hi-Power, Glock, SIG, etc.) you can adjust the dwell time and slide velocity by changing the angles on the cam. When a link is used (Colt Government Model and clones) you can’t do as much.

All of this makes it difficult to mass produce a 1911 style pistol that is ultra-short and consistently reliable. These truths should be self-evident, but they still sell like hotcakes on a cold morning...

Because they are cute, and occasionally you do find one that works – at least for a time.

Concerning the current disaster under discussion, the owner can try tweaking the extractor, but before I went very far I’d run a finishing reamer into the chamber and see if I got any chips. Today’s makers favor tight chambers (“match grade” ya’ know).

But having walked the walk, when “Da’ Fuff” wants a very short .45 to protect his scrawny neck it will be a revolver, not a pistol. Regardless of length, they most always go “BANG!”

 

[Janitor]

Viet Nam unpleasantness

I have _never_ heard it put quite that way. I like it.

Yea. The gun is cute. It seems to be the kind of thing I get to live with if I buy something on a whim. My bad, I know.

But did I say the gun is cute? I love an IWB sized sidearm that makes big holes. And yes - I know that there are other ways. But when I was in this shop, and I was looking at cute pistols - it was this ($@#!#) short 1911 that caught my misguided attention.

And you're very right. My 686 has never yet had a failure to feed, or a failure to eject. Has _always_ gone boom.

BTW - WRT the finishing reamer suggestion - rounds that didn't eject, even those cases that didn't appear to have moved at all, fall right out of the chamber with the lightest of taps.

-

 

[1911Tuner]

Browning

Da Fuff said:

>But he soon discovered that John Browning knew what he was doing, and that his mission was to design a military pistol – not a pocket piece. He must be spinning in his grave over what some idiots are doing these days...<
*********************

Nah...He's prob'ly LHAO and sayin: "3 inches?? You GOTTA be yankin' my chain!"

 

[Old Fuff]

Janitor:

But did I say the gun is cute? I love an IWB sized sidearm that makes big holes.

So do I. But try a Commander-sized upper on a compact frame assembly.

BTW - WRT the finishing reamer suggestion - rounds that didn't eject, even those cases that didn't appear to have moved at all, fall right out of the chamber with the lightest of taps.

But that's after chamber pressure has dropped to zero. Consider what happens when the slide velocity is too fast and the cartridge case tries to eject too soon...

Browning knew what he was doing. All these current makers want is your money...

 

[scbair]

I sure won't presume to argue with Fuff or Tuner; with all the smoke about the 3" 1911-styles, there's gotta be a fire somewhere!

However, my own (purely anecdotal) experience with a pair of snubbie Kimbers (an old blued Ultra and a newer Ultra CDP) is not reflective of that concern. Other than some initial premature slidelock issues (long since remedied on both pieces), both of my specimens have been 1005 reliable. Nary a feedway stoppage or a failure to eject, ever!

Slowly walking away, counting myself lucky . . . . .

 

[Delmar]

Delmar must have the luck of the Irish-I have a 1991A1 Compact with a Kings bushing and captive recoil spring assembly which does very well. Other mods include a Videcki long trigger, McCormick hammer and sear.

Recently bought an early production Officers model with a matte finish and it has functioned 100% and the only part not stock is the Hogue checkered wooden grips.

Both are ammo sensitive, but will feed 200 gr SWCs without a hitch, provided you keep the oal at 1.250 or less.
I have good performance with the stock Colt magazines and the McCormick 7 round mags too.

 

[Old Fuff]

There are always exceptions to any rule, and sometimes a combination of spring tension(s) and tolerance stacking produce a pistol that actually works. Tuner can, under protest, make them perform, but he apparently isn't looking to add to his experience.

But as I stated before, I would much rather stake my neck on the rule, not the exception ...

 

[1911Tuner]

Exceptional Rule

There are always exceptions to any rule, and sometimes a combination of spring tension(s) and tolerance stacking produce a pistol that actually works. Tuner can, under protest, make them perform, but he apparently isn't looking to add to his experience.

But as I stated before, I would much rather stake my neck on the rule, not the exception ...

Yep...Double yep...and a HUGE, big 'ol YEAH BUDDY!

I ain't had one whip me yet, though it's been close on a few occasions. When one finally does, you can probably bet that it'll be a shorty.

 

[gringolet]

ammo and tuning

short barrel definitely more senstive to ammo...try it with a variety and take notes...ALSO...tune the extractor a bit, throat the barrel lightly and be careful not to "limp wrist", but get a firm grab and most all of this will probably go away....if it continues to be a problem swap for a commander/champion sized model and be happy...

 

[Flashpoint]

THREAD HIJACKING IN PROGRESS ....

...sort of.



I've asked this question a few times and never got a straight answer. Would a short barreled 1911 firing .40cal or 9mm be any more or less reliable, or is the unreliability entirely rest on the shortness of the barrel?

 

[BluesBear]

or is the unreliability entirely rest on the shortness of the barrel?

Old Fuff pretty much addressed that in post #14.

Short answer is, Yes, the problem lays with the shortness of the barrel in the 1911 pattern.

 

[AK103K]

Try changing your springs. I have a Kimber Ultra Carry that was becoming more and more unreliable as I shot it. I was told that the springs need to be changed every 350-400 rounds or so. Got a set from Wolff and its been running much better since I changed them out. Have only had an occasional feed problem, and the ammo may have been at fault there.