Shotgun vs. car door - FBI gelatin test # 3

[Brass Fetcher]

"Test Three - Steel - Two pieces of 20 gauge, hot-rolled steel with a galvanized finish are set three inches apart. The clothing covered gelatin block is placed 18 inches behind the rear most piece of steel. This test event simulates the weakest part of a car door."

Not having access to the above steel, I went with 2 sheets of thicker, 18 gauge cold-rolled sheet. The light clothing on the block consisted of two layers of 12 oz. denim fabric.

Round tested was Federal Premium 3-inch magnum 00 copper-plated buckshot. Firearm was 20" barrel pump action with cylinder choke.

Block calibrated at 9.9cm and 608 ft/sec BB velocity.

Single shot fired to the center of the first sheet of steel. Impact velocity was unrecorded due to chronograph malfunction. Maximum pellet penetration was 9.25". 7 out of 15 pellets recovered in block, two were found in the space between the two sheets. The remaining 6 apparently headed to the place where socks vanish to when placed in the dryer - the 6 pellets were unrecovered.

 

[Dave McCracken]

Thanks for posting that. Real world testing is crucial. What range was it from the muzzle to the first sheet of steel?

Thanks....

 

[sm]

JE223,
Thank you again for another well done, informative test.

If at sometime you replicate this, add window glass from a wrecked vehicle.
As you , myself and others are aware of, there is a difference in "window up" and "window down" - with the glass and other materials inside a door.


Related Test: Car Doors..Update 2.0, by VUPDblue
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=213488

Regards,

Steve

 

[9mmMike]

Thanks for this.

 

[Brass Fetcher]

You're welcome. The offset from the muzzle to the first sheet was 10 feet.

Glass would be a nice test and was in fact what I was initially trying to do, but had to go with the steel, because the auto glass was just too difficult to find. The FBI spec is something like 0.25" thick laminated safety glass and I couldn't find a glass place in my area that carried that and was willing to sell it to me in a 1 square foot size.

In any event, after seeing my own test data on this one, I would see firing through such a barrier as a last resort, especially if like you said, there was a window or a gear in-between the sheet metal.

JE223

 

[rustymaggot]

auto body shops and school auto shops have windows available for free. cracked, but free.

 

[mec]

None of mine made it through the inside panel of a van door but all but one or two made it through the outside panel


the slug went through the door, trashed the drivers seat broke in to pieces and made a pretty good dent in the opposit wall.

 

[Zero_DgZ]

Real world testing! When my friend upgrades his car this summer we're gonna have an '89 Cavalier wagon we fully intend to shoot up and measure the ensuing effects.

 

[sm]

I used real vehicles, testing car doors, windows up/ down, trunks, fenders, door glass alone, windshields, back glass , roof, shoot into, and out of...you name it.

mec,

My testing mirrors yours.
Personally never saw a need for anything but 2 3/4" shells.

Caprice, and Crown Vic, Various "buckshot" loads from #4 to 000 - none of the pellets penetrated with the glass down, not much better with glass up, with all the internal workings of a car door.

Slugs penetrated every single time. In fact I have used Brennekes and had that slug penetrate both driver's and passenger's door.

Glass does funny things to "projectiles" , vehicle glass especially. Add the different "features" of glass designed to do various things, and for instance Windshields / back glass varies from window glass, shapes (curved) or angled...

Body work various too do due shapes , insides, how assembled...etc.

For instance drywall by itself "reacts" one way. Now drywall assembled as in a structure behaves different. Them 2x4s "change" the total composititon and behaviour.


One has to test their gun, their load, on various "tasks" to really know for sure.

If I am ever in a restuarant and shots fired from a handgun and I am making tracks to cover - An Aquarium with water, is one thing I will use to "hopefully" make it safe.

Them "bench seats" padded are sure not all that "safe".

 

[Karbon]

Very nice to see the photos of real world testing.

 

[mec]

I was a little surprised that the 00 buck didn't go through the door. I've always been happy with the results from foster slugs. This is a pretty typical seated/unsupported fifty yard cluster.:

 

[Gordon]

Besides shooting at abandoned wrecks ect for 35 years, in vehicle assault courses I've done a few experiments. The side window in most cars is tempered glass not laminate. Roll it down in door and shoot thru and see what happens to the 000 then! Brennekes rule!

 

[Dr.Rob]

So there is a scientific reason to shoot up old cars?

I just thought it was fun. (Well it was the last time I did it with a rented full-auto BAR...)

 

[9mmMike]

mec said

This is a pretty typical seated/unsupported fifty yard cluster.:

You shot that without a black synthetic-stocked, pistol-gripped, sidesaddled, ported, lighted, mag-extended "tactical" gun? Egads!

 

[sm]

mec
Gordon
I'll state it again, you are smart fellows and I have always respected your take. You are some of the ones I just go back thru and read all your posts.

Dr. Rob.
Well yeah you too, just I find that pic of that Pedersoli of yours and get to jonesing for a BP shotgun...
Nobody said doing scientific research could not be fun.
BTW I need to PM you.

9mmMike,
Gee, that reads like something I would post.


I shot a .410 slug from a kid's sized single shot shotgun toward the back door of a "new" minvan. I was kneeling, from about 15 steps and hit just below the latch to open.
That "wittle" .410 slug went thru the door, the rear seat, middle seat, and lodged in .the plastic console .

Repeated with a Rem 20 ga Slug (old, with rust on the base) from a NEF 20 ga Youth 20 ga single shot...did same as the .410 plus, the goofey cup holders, and lodged somewhere in all that stuff before you get to the engine mounted wrong.

Remember the Station wagons of the 60's and 70's with the hand crank exterior of the back "gate". ? Crank the window down, that sucker stopped a number of handgun bullets, some made it thru, and buckshot(s) no better. Now slugs worked.

So did the .54 ball from a BP muzzleloader...*cough* *waves hands* *cough*.

Old boy grinning with that smokepole in hand. "Well it worked back then, seems to me still working today".
Taklking about BP and loads.

 

[mec]

Well heck. We all just like to break things.

 

[sm]

Actually...
I was NOT trying to break that light bulb in a ranch shop.

I did learn a wooden plug for a SX1 being heavier will break one...
The 1100 uses that green plastic one as we all know, I had slipped earlier with that one too...another ~ 4ft and I would have gotten it then.

I had help with these guns, seems the new lab puppies really really wanted my attention, especially after that first peppermint.

"Bring back my mag spring you little brats!"
"Got anymore peppermint? Got Peppermint you get the mag spring back".

I suggest a table to work on shotguns, using a hay bale with black lab pups is not all that smart. They are cute, they are smart, still devious little brats.

 

[Brass Fetcher]

Any comments, suggestions regarding the test?

I would have liked to have tried a higher velocity load as higher velocity rounds tend to penetrate hard targets better. Also, trying 000 buck would have been nice. The optimum load for softer targets is number 1 buckshot, with the larger sizes giving better penetration but smaller total pellet frontal area. So, stepping it up to 000 buckshot might be the key to reaching the 12" minimum penetration depth, but like so many other things there will be a trade-off between effectiveness on the target and effectiveness against a hard intermediate barrier.

Maybe someone will do something like these in the future...

 

[mec]

About all I can do with the various loads is shoot something and then go " Gee! wasn't that neat." I always liked the notion of number four buckshot because of the pellet dose. I particularly liked the short cased 34 pellet loads they call "magnums." Then I read that anything under 00 buck was non lethal because of poor penetration. I don't know about this because I haven't gone out and killed enough people for a reliable data base- as I suppose all the stopping power experts have. One thing I have noticed is that the larger buck shot, even though they have smaller pellet counts tend to cluster somewhat tighter than the smaller ones:

Don't know if its significant or not but I really do like that 12 foot wad from the trap barrel. 12 feet has been mentioned by some as the width of a fairly normal room.

The number one buck pattern from the 20 barrel seems kind of sparce at 50 yards

this S&B 00 load that somehow manages 12 pellets in the standard case is pretty entertaining at 50 feet:

 

[Mick_In_Texas]

This is all very interesting...

I have a Mossberg Persuader pump 12 gauge. Obviously it's not a weapon I carry around much, being a CHL holder and not traveling much where I could transfer the shotgun to my motel room very... um, inconspicuously, whereas my .45s are no problem there. I live in an apartment. So, keep the Mossberg loaded with low-recoil (basically small powder charge), aluminum 00 buckshot rounds: I live in a temperate area of Texas, not many clothing layers used here by perps or law-abiding citizens, and the Mossberg is not my first response weapon... it's mostly for close-quarter inside work in a pinch if my .38+P SJHPs or .45ACP SJHPs need back-up...

But, a 12-gauge SLUG, is a terrifying thing... heck, even those alluded-to .410 and 20-gauge slugs, are pretty fearsome! .410 would be a .40 caliber... Just a stupid question: what caliber is a 12-guage slug??? About .70??? I've seen a .50 caliber revolver recently (.500 Casul round), and interesting but NO desire to actually fire something like that... LOL... I know I sound dumb, but, just curious, I don't know that much detail about shotguns generally. Sounds like you folks would know.

Generally, some really great defensive information here. Appreciate all the folks who "tested" these scatterguns... have to agree, that sometimes, "science (realtime, that is)" can also be FUN... as well as educational.

Y'all all take care.
Mick

 

[mec]

I ve never clocked a 410 slug but have read that the velocity is about 1600 fps which is a good bit faster than the larger bores. A 12 guage foster slug weighs either three quarter oz or one full oz. I believe it is supposed to be .72 caliber. 500 Linebaughs do kick fairly vociferiously unless you load them at 750-1,000 fps. even at the lower velocity, they penitrate very well on game animals. I have one friend who has killed quite a few deer with a load at about this level. The bullets weight is in the 400 to .445 grain range-about the same as a heavy foster 12 guage.

This shot of Katerine Schmidt shooting a 500 Smith and Wesson looks a lot like it does when somebody touches off a Linebaugh. The Smith is heavier, ported and very comfortable compared to the other. Katherine can actually hit things with it:

Here is a 500 Linebaugh by Clements. Even Kathryn can't hit anything with the full loads

 

[sm]

Oh goodie - more pictures!

New Folks - This is good stuff Maynard.

JE223-
Recall Bob Brister's Book if you will.
There is a "sweet spot" in regard to all this Art & Science.

-Higher velocity "may" cause more deformity of pellets, resulting in not only LESS penetration, also less dense pattersn , and l-o-n-g shot strings.

- Ditto with Increased pellet count.

-Reduced Recoil , we are seeing LESS penetration and...
Gets complicated even more if too many pellets, not buffered,....

mec
Thank you for posting these tests and pics again.
These are MOST informative and everyone should read and study these.
I could never get #1 buckshot to perform to my standards in anything...

New Folks -

mec demonstrates so well :

-It makes no difference what a barrel, or choke is marked, you have to pattern your gun.

-It makes No difference what some box of ammo "says" it will do.
-It makes No difference what Teem Seel uses, some guy on the Erronet, the fellow down the street
You have to test YOUR gun.

One reason we speak of Forcing Cones being so important is - consider the pressure is akin to a grenade "slamming" all them pellets thru that forcing cone.
Pellet deformity means them nice round pellets are now smushed, the are not going to penetrate as well, and for sure not going to pattern well - and not arrive at the same time [long shot string].

Yes you can miss with all them pellets. Look at the 50ft target, those pellets did not arrive at the same time. IF that BG was moving, there exists a real possibility - The BG being missed totally. Depends on how fast BG moving, and how long the shot string.

Also note how the Trap barrel did. My gut says that barrel has a great forcing cone, along with bore size [not every bore is .729] and that payload to bore ratio likes each real well.

Additionally the normal POC ( points of choke) for Full is 35 POC, meaning a standard .729 becomes .694.
If that bore was say .735 then that figures to be .700. That is 6 POC difference.
5 Poc on a .729 is considered Skeet I

http://www.colonialarms.com/chokespecs.html

See why we suggest not whacking a bbl and not having a choke?

Look at the pics and pattern differences.

Remember flat pellets are going to lose velocity and being less round, will NOT penetrate as deep.

There is a lot more to learn from the posts and pics shared in this thread.

I likes this stuff - can you tell?

Stee

 

[Mick_In_Texas]

All Y'all, sm... mec...

sm, Sir, YES: this, a very, very interesting and informative thread, one I might have missed except for JE223's eye-catching title for the thread... having spent the better part of a year, becoming intimately acquainted with what is now my personal favorite handgun and handgun round, the 1911 platform for the .45ACP. Had not really thought too much about my scattergun, other than concern for not having overpenetration in the instance (my God forbid) I ever have to actually fire it defensively (have had four instances in my life, where I had to brandish; thank my God, never fire)...

mec, thank you sir for both the confirmation of my estimate on the "caliber" of a 12-gauge, and sm's further information on the caliber of both unchoked and chocked barrels. I roughly estimated that .70, from my handgunning experience, and my recent sighting of that .500 Casul revolver. Really enjoyed the pics of Ms. Schmidt, with her .50 cal S & W; more power to her, any person who can handle a .50 cal handgun, man or woman, has my respect! Yeah, there's not much difference in diameter between that monster and my beloved .45s, but that extra .05, PLUS the associated powder charge, uh-uh for this ol' boy... although, my S & W 686 with a 6" barrel, was MUCH more controllable than many of my friends's 2-1/2s to 5s, duh... Anyway, back to the scatterguns...

Agreed with sm: I'm loving this stuff! Y'all have given me a whole new interest in examining and thinking about my shotgun, and shotguns in general... I had the little .410 Mossberg riot gun 15, 20 years ago. It wasn't a 500, I'm thinking... 490 model? Anyway, I'd bought my ol' man a 12, model 500, we put stocks on them (do not personally "believe" in pistol grips, even in close quarters, some things I learned from Viet Nam veterans about THAT), but, healthy as he is, he just couldn't take the recoil on the 12. Stock or pistol grip.

Of course, defensively... if you've got the space, whether LEO or law-abiding citizen, the 12 gauge has a more fearsome REPUTATION than even my beloved .45s. Although the last perp didn't like the muzzle end of my 9mm... I'd really like to have seen (well, NOT really, but, I wonder) what he'd have done looking down Ol' Bigmouth or a 12 gauge. Regardless, he wisely decided he'd "picked" the wrong apartment to kick a door in on...

I don't know if the Mossberg 500 series are chokeable. From sm's comments, at out to 50 ft or so, shot, not slugs, chokes defensively may be a good thing? Reckon if you were running slugs you CAN'T use a choke, it's full-bore. (I don't shoot skeet, trap, or hunt with a scattergun.) But, for shot... that "forcing cone" idea (basically, that's what a choke is, as I understand it) WOULD seem to improve the patterning, if not the shot string out of the wadding... and in my case, with aluminum shot... But, now, I'm also thinking about the small powder charge combined with the aluminum 00 buck: THAT combination may be actually UNDERpowered. The aluminum is soft, anyways... it's going to deform on hard surfaces (definitely not for "street" situations, and car doors or windshields, I've known someone who had their rear glass in a pickup hit with a full load of steel shot, probably #1 or #2, not 00 or 000 buck, 2-1/2, not 3", not magnum, who lived and was not injured seriously (not second shot), other than... fright reaction... LOL... auto glass is a strange thing, I've heard. That's the reason on the highway, my carry weapon has FMJs, NOT SJHPs, in the mag. That's for LEOs, on the street. Still, indoors... I don't know. I will have to research this some more.

Folks, I appreciate the specific answer; and I really appreciate not only this good information, but, the rekindling of my interest in that ol' lovingly maintained but rarely fired Mossberg.

Y'all all take care and be safe.
Mick

 

[Mesa Tactical]

Sometime during the Buick o' Truth thread on AR15.com they get to shotguns.

Long story short, if you find yourself in a gunfight, get out of the car. It offers no cover and in fact is a big-ass target for people to shoot at.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=461635

 

[mec]

"Charlie Miller, Texas Ranger..."
the usual story goes that the pistol was cocked and unlocked with the grip safety tied down. a friend used to work in the Gibson's discount center in Waco and confirms the grip safety thing.
One speaker at the concealed handgun association (might have been Bill Wilson) said that he carried it like he did because one day somebody climbed up on his back and the odd angle at which he had to point his .45 kept him from being able to depress the grip safety. I believe he finally did shoot the guy though.