Shotgun vs. car door - FBI gelatin test # 3

[Bob F.]

Try that aluminum shot on a pumpkin. Hopefully, this weekend I'll get to pattern a little. Try to figure out how to post pics.

Thanks for all the good info!

Can't figure out why LEO's don't use 00 or slug to radiator to stop vehicles, much more effective that spike strips or shooting tires. Overheated engine stops! Political considerations, I guess!.

Bob

 

[Mick_In_Texas]

mec, Sir...

A functional, well-maintained 1911 or 1911A1, is SAFE in Condition 1 carry (cocked and locked). You are correct: that ol' single-action JMB pistol, has ONE EXTRA safety--the grip safety. Don't want to get reprimanded here off the shotgun deal in this thread, but, if a 1911 or 1911A1 has a round in the chamber, with the thumb safety OFF, and the grip safety is not fully depressed, it will not fire. I've tried it on two brands of modern-manufacture 1911A1s, and my USGI Colt 1911 from 1918. Every firearm is potentially dangerous and deadly.

BUT... unlike some folks's opinion of the 1911/A1... read, "inherently unsafe" (since it must be cocked to engage the thumb safety)... I just do NOT buy that. My double-action pistols, chambered, can have the thumb safeties engaged with a lowered hammer; but, if you have the lowered hammer, and kick the thumb safety off, they WILL fire with two different trigger pulls, hammer down or cocked. The 1911 platform, if the individual weapon is in functional and good condition, as all mine are, including the 1918 1911, is no more unsafe than ANY handgun. Even my GP100 revolver is a double-action; you don't have to cock the hammer to fire a round, if you have a round in the top hole of the cylinder.

Unfamilar folks, those who despise or at the other end of the spectrum, just don't like guns, get nervous with a cocked hammer on a gun. They don't understand guns. I concede that there are no other single-action pistols that I know of out there, other than the 1911 platform, any more... but, it's a training issue. Being licensed to carry deadly force in public in my state, I take the responsibility seriously; but, nowadays? I can field strip and reassemble a 1911/A1 with my eyes closed in less than 60 seconds. I love the weapon.

Just like I love my P90 (a little harder, that damned ejector arm!), my GP100, my Taurus 9mm, my Mossberg. I love the safety on a Mossberg: on the reciever, NOT the trigger guard! That time I brandished the ol' 490 .410, that was a defensive advantage.

I NEVER want to pull the trigger on a perp: on the road or in a residence. I will guarantee y'all that that safety is on, regardless of my pistol or shotgun that is brandished, and the hammer stays down on my revolver. But, having been there and done that a few times in my own life, I don't think or believe the Mossberg shotguns, or the 1911/A1s, are any less safe or controllable than any other firearm. In fact, I'm much more comfortable with my 1911s and my scattergun, than my double action pistols and my revolver. I know that ALL mine work 100%. Ol' Charlie Miller made a good point, but, you got to read between his line...

Y'all all take care and be safe. Y'all are a great bunch of folks here.
Mick

 

[Mick_In_Texas]

Bob F... Hee hee, LIKE your post!

That ol' aluminum buckshot would really tear up a pumpkin, I'm sure... LOL...

I'm just wanting to be safe, should I ever have to either brandish, or my God forbid, FIRE. Perps and pumkins, in the end... well, two different things.

I LIKE the idea and principle of the aluminum 00. The powder charge, is what I'm thinkin' about. I've never gotten into loading/reloading. I have given/recycled my brass hulls to folks. But, from some of the information posted in this thread... with a low or small powder charge, combined with the aluminum 00, it might be pretty much a wasted or ineffective combination, even with the considerations of a perp and third parties. While I have no desire or fantasy to ever have to brandish again in my life, much less pull a trigger... were I to have to, on a perp, I want effectiveness. All us law-abiding citizens, never want to pull a trigger; BUT, we want to have weapons that will work for what the need is, without over penetration or (gasp) overkill, in a bad and critical situation.

Apartment: aluminum 00, maybe good; low powder charge, maybe not so good. Would it do the job? I'm wondering, if you had to do "a job"... I'm thinking, loading one's own, aluminum 00, regular, not 3", but 2-1/2", regular charge. Inside, in my situation, apartment, neither 3/4 or 1 ounce slug, seems workable. And yet... on the other hand...

Y'all all take care and be safe.
Mick

 

[Bob F.]

Ah, Steve: you didn't say anything about those cars being abandoned ( or unoccupied) during your "testing".

Mick" I'm not at all sure alum 00 will tear up a pumpkin! Not too worried about a load of lead 00 having enough steam left to do much damage if it did completely penetrate a BG. Somebody chime in here.

Stay safe.

Bob

 

[mec]

funny you should mention it. I had made prior arrangements with the owner of that van to shoot it up. I was planning to surprise the two guys I go shooting with by just stepping out of the car and cutting loose. Had to give them some indication of what was going on though. While there was virtually no chance of a wino being asleep inside the van, I had to go check and make sure anyway.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Any comments, suggestions regarding the test?

Sure, why did you call this FBI gelatin test #3? The FBI was trying to simulate a car door and you are trying to simulate the FBI tests. The problem is the FBI test isn't a very good simulation and since you changed the parameters, you are no longer doing their test, but your own variant.

I realize you are trying to simulate a car door, but what car door? I would have been pleased had the last two cars I had were made with steel as thick as the FBI test, estatic if they were as thick as JE223's, but they were thinner. Plus, who sits 18" from a car door? Why is the gelatin so far away?

sm, your comment negates itself...

-It makes No difference what Teem Seel uses, some guy on the Erronet, the fellow down the street

You are on the errornet and claiming we need to pattern our guns. Since you say we can't trust some guy on the errornet and you are one of those guys, we can't trust you.

Even so, yes, patterning is critical.

 

[Brass Fetcher]

DNS, thank you for the constructive criticism regarding the test. I called this FBI gelatin test #3 because it was set up exactly as the FBI specifications, save the 18 gauge cold-roll sheet and the two layers of denim fabric.

Since the FBI test specific materials are so difficult to find locally (to anywhere I have lived/looked) it is good practice to substitute more resistant barrier materials as opposed to less. The sheet I used, 18 gauge, is thicker than 20 gauge and it is my understanding that the material is harder than hot-rolled, as called for in the specs. The denim may or may not be more resistant to bullet penetration than the 'light clothing' - the steel more than makes up for this difference.

I'm not going to address the validity of the FBI tests - they are what they are and they have done a hell of a good job in streamlining the defensive/LE ammunition industry design practices. The 18" offset likely is representative of the offset a trained shooter would leave between themselves and the door. There are a number of reasons why 'hugging' cover is bad form - the least of which is disallowing yourself freedom of movement with a long gun, when firing from behind cover.

JE223

 

[NineseveN]

When do we get to see the slugs take a crack at this? I don't really wish to rely so much on Buckshot despite what the common wisdom says I should do. I already have a good idea what the slugs'll do though, make a mess out of anything they touch, would good to validate that theory though.

 

[Brass Fetcher]

I'm out of powder and there has been no money coming in (from people wanting to see tests) to support it. As of the next two test sessions (12 gauge buck - FBI barrier test on one block and .25ACP on the other), I am done dealing with the gelatin.

I have answered most of my questions through the tests that I have conducted and have posted the results for others to use/enjoy, so I'm basically done with what I set out to do. I do not mind continuing the testing, but they will be custom tests and I will have to ask for compensation.

The tendancy of most people in this case has been to ask and not to give back, so, save for the very kind words of thanks from many of you on THR and other locations where I have posted my results, I must say that I see no reason to continue testing gelatin. It really is not all that fun, unless you are getting paid to make it.

JE223

 

[Brass Fetcher]

This is my testing policy, from my website :

"If I send you (blank) bullet, will you test it in ballistic gelatin?


This is the most-often recieved question. Testing bullets in ballistic gelatin requires more than just the gelatin powder.

It takes at least 2 hours of uninterupted preparation time, 2.2 pounds of gelatin powder and lots of your refrigerators electricity to make a block of ballistic gelatin. This is before the 2 day wait for the block to solidify and the drive to the range takes place. While I would like to test bullets for everyone who asks, there is simply not time enough in the day or money enough in my pocket to be able to do so.

When I test gelatin for someone, I charge $100 per (16x6x6)" block if I have to use a gun here locally and recieve your ammunition via UPS.

But sometimes this is not practical, like when the customer wants to find out how their particular ammunition will work with their particular gun. In this case, one block can be shipped to your location for $50, with the buyer paying the shipping fees. This is also where things can get expensive - to insure the best results, the gelatin should be shipped in an insulated and/or cooled container. This adds weight and cost, depending upon the carrier.

Please send me an email if you are interested in gelatin testing and we will see what can be worked out.
"

I do FBI tests as well, but I only charge for the barrier materials in addition to the cost of the gelatin. This is the minimum cost that I can do it for, and the above accounts for a fraction of my time and the wear caused on the refrigeration units on the refrigerator (gelatin eats compressors), in addition to gas to the range, etc.

 

[Brass Fetcher]

Just noticed something on the plywood stand that I put gelatin on top of during the test events - one of the buckshot veered about 3" lower than the others and hit the plywood head on. FWIW, this same load will penetrate 5/8" of plywood, after going through the steel, when hitting parallel with the plane of the boards. (Boards were laid flat and the buckshot hit the thin edge).

 

[lbmii]

I have a new policy:

If I see a thread by JE223 I do not care what is going on I am stopping everything and seeing what JE223 has going on.

Great work.

 

[Brass Fetcher]

lbmii,

Thank you. That is great to hear. If you go to my website, www.brassfetcher.com , you can find the results of the majority of the tests that I have run.

 

[Dave McCracken]

I'm repeating myself, but thanks!!

Your work gives us some real data to evaluate. Please keep it up....

 

[Brass Fetcher]

I'm trying Dave, but it is getting too expensive and time consuming...

 

[Dave McCracken]

I can relate. Do what you can and thanks again.

 

[NineseveN]

This might be kinda out of the question, but couldn't we do a THR fundraiser and maybe help offset the costs of this research? I mean, it's benefitting the community, maybe we can do something? If my forums were more strictly firearms related, we might be able to do somehting (plus we're small) but is there anything we can do here aside from just having to rely on a few folks sending cash to JE223?

I dunno, just an idea...

 

[azflyman]

I would support research, no problem. Visuals work well for me.

az

 

[Brass Fetcher]

Regarding compensation for custom gelatin testing

I am agreeable to testing the loads that this forum wants to see in ballistic gelatin. As I mentioned earlier, the reason that I am stopping testing (at my own cost) is that I am essentially done with the major portion of the testing that I wanted to see - I have learned most of what I wanted to learn. While I still have plenty of neat tests planned, including many suggested on THR, I can't currently justify my time and expense to do them.

Unless...

You help support the testing. Below, please find a breakdown of my cost to make a block - the price that I would have to charge would directly reflect this, I won't charge for my time and all of the other incidentals that I normally charge the 'person at the range' who wants a custom gelatin test.

Gelatin powder : 160 $/25lbf. 2.2lbf in the kg needed for each block = $14.55

Refrigerator wear : One mini fridge makes 20 blocks usually before the refrigeration machinery breaks. (I don't use my food fridge because gelatin is a sanctuary for bacterial growth). The one I have now cost $150. = $7.50

Ice for the ice chest : $3.00

Gasoline : the range is 25 miles round trip from my house. I finally ditched my 'car' and got a 4x4. Of course, I now get 12 miles/gallon. At 2.50 $/gal, = $5.00 for the gas.

I'm excluding the costs of the private range I shoot at (local public range is now a gangsta training area), the Ohler chrono, mold, triple-beam balance and test fixtures.

The total, then, for each block will have to be at least $30.00. My feeling is, based on that poll that I did where people could choose what they wanted to see tested in gelatin, is that there is more than enough people wanting to see one particular caliber/brand tested to be able to split the bill. Something like 14 people responded to this poll in favor of the 45-70. The total cost to them, then, would be $2 each. There is about a $500 startup fee to get all of the equipment to properly make gelatin... So this seems the cheap way to go, to me.

JE223

 

[azflyman]

I noted that you did one test for 45-70 using a 300gr bullet. I an more interested in the 405gr Speer I shoot. I also noted you used a 18" barrel, lever action which sounds just like the Marlin 1895 G. Great gun, fun to shoot, really attracts attention when that big ball of fire erupts from the muzzle. Shoot it at the center of a railroad tie standing on end and it will bust it clean in two. I'm game.

az

 

[Brass Fetcher]

This is largely what I am talking about. The gelatin mold is now covered in metal preservative, the last test will take place within three days.

JE223