should i whip my dog?

[Grouse Hunter]

wow thinks for all the replies guys. I probably won't ever whip my dog (i like her way to much) because she is way to smart. i've had her for about a week and she already will come, sit, fetch, point a wing rock solid, and even has backed my dad dogs a couple of times. I did try the scolding and getting in her face today when she chased a car down the road and al most got hit. my dad told me when she gets older if she does it again i should slap her on the but to teach her to stay out of the road but i dunno. about those shock collars when we went to wisconsin this guy had 2 english setters and one of em kept gettin way to far away and would not come back after he hollered his mouth off so he shocked it and the thing ran back to the truck and was skidish all week i dont want this to happen so i think i just stick with the beeper coller and no shock.

 

[redneck2]

IMO, the correct answer is...

Buy a book entitled "Waterdog". This guy is considered one of the best trainers in the world. Had a Lab that won the world field trials at less than a year old (the dog, not the trainer)

I got a Lab that I didn't really start to train until he was maybe 4-5. Used the techniques in the book. After a few months he would follow hand signals, etc.

Key to training dogs is to keep the sessions short, 10-15 minutes or less. Be quick on discipline and quick on praise. The dog needs to know that you're the alpha male, but you don't have to abuse them to establish an order.

 

[birddog]

Tincat,

I am casting a vote for you for the category of Best Vocabulary Displayed By a High Road New Member.

Welcome!

 

[redneck]

I've spent my whole life training horses, and I think the same principles apply to training just about any animal.
Animals learn from repetition. You give them a cue, and expect a certain behavior. With repetition, it becomes a habit, almost an instinct.
The trick is getting that behavior to take place enough times that they associate it with your cue, and make it a habit.
Animals have a comfort zone just like people. If you take them out of their comfort zone, they will do something to get back in it. You don't have to inflict pain to take an animal out of their comfort zone, and it definitely should not be the first method you try everytime.
If you go straight to inflicting pain, you have no other recourse. If it doesn't get the behavior you want....you can't resort to anything else. It also ruins the animals focus. Because you are constantly inflicting pain, the animal is going to be under stress, its going to be a lot harder to get it back into its comfort zone. If it can't get there, it can't associate that with the behavior you want.
You also have to show the animal how to get back into its comfort zone. They have to know what behavior you're looking for. Then you keep pressing them until they give you that behavior. They have to have an outlet.
Here's an example.
I just started working with a 3 year old colt, that has been handled by people alot, but has never had any serious training. I need to saddle break him. The first day, I went in his stall with him and he immediately whipped around into a corner and presented me with his tail end, ears pinned back like he was planning on kicking me if I went any closer. This isn't acceptable behavior, I expect him to face me and let me come to his head when I go in the stall.

So the behavior I want is for him to turn around and come to me. The cue I'm going to give is to stand in the corner of his stall and calmly talk to him.
So now I have to do something to make him uncomfortable while he's there in the corner.
I could haul off and whip him with a lead rope, but this is probably just going to make him see how small he can get and how far into that corner he can go. It makes him uncomfortable, but doesn't show him what behavior I expect, he doesn't have an outlet.
Instead, I take a lasso and swing it slowly, and toss it over his head. This generally scares the heck out of them and makes them very eager to leave the corner. At the same time, I now have the rope around his neck and can use it to guide him. I can flick the coil at his rear end if he still doesn't want to move, and I can pull on him so that when he does move he turns to face me. I'm showing him where to go.
So I use the rope to apply pressure until he's standing facing me, within reach. Then I release the rope and stand still for a second to see if he will stand there. If he tries to leave, I go back to pressure on the rope. If he stays there, I slowly reach out and try to touch his neck or face.
When he tries to leave, its not the behavior I want, so I go back to pressure on the rope. Eventually he lets me touch him, and I stand there and pet him and let him know this is what I want. I stand there and pet him and don't worry about doing anything else until he's calm and stays there willingly.
After a couple times, we've established a pattern of him being uncomfortable in the corner and comfortable facing me, letting me pet him. Now when I open the stall door he comes over and meets me.

Following this principle is that fastest most effective method I've found. Simply rewarding good behavior doesnt' work, because you spend too much time waiting for the good behavior to take place, and there isn't enough consistency in what lead to the good behavior. You have to be firm, and make things happen, but pain the not the first, and certainly not the only tool you use.

 

[swampdog]

I agree with the "give love, get love" comment. I've got an 8 year old chocolate lab that has been treated with (almost) nothing but love. She's the best dog I've ever had. On 2 occasions, I've slapped her pretty heavy on the butt. She has never repeated the actions that got her slapped.

Is it any wonder how many bad pet owners there are when you think about how many bad parents there are?

i'm a cat herder by avocation, so i've got a small inkling as to the problems associated with obstreperous, cantankerous, and wily resistance to my ordering of things

LOL dogs are easy. I didn't have much luck convincing my girlfriend that spanking cats is counter productive. I believe the cats had better luck. They peed in her shoes.

 

[islandphish]

mostly good replies

dogs are not people. sometimes a quick correction(leash jerk, smack on the rump, harsh language, shock correction) followed by praise is the best way to train.

Similarly, sometimes the best option is to give a kid a smart smack on the butt. That doesn't mean that you're beating them.

In the field absolute obedience is necessary. for the safety of the dog or livestock, and other reasons. Treat training is not the way to get this. The dog has to understand that the ONLY option that it has is to obey immediately.

I reccommend "Top Working Dogs" by Dietmar Schellenberg. In it he gives a long talk on his way of training. Hint: timing is key.

Aside: went hunting today over a German Shorthair and 2 English Setters. All 3 had shock collars and all 3 didn't need to be buzzed all day. They were not shy, they were not timid and they hunted their butts off for us.

Don't buy into the (pardon me) liberal "dogs are people" babble. Ever seen how dogs establish dominance? It isn't with treats, they fight and they growl. We can rise above that, but that doesn't change the base effectiveness. If you don't believe me, try to force a dog that thinks he can kick your butt into doing something. Putting human traits onto dogs is detrimental to understanding dogs. Love them for what they are but don't get wacky with the puppy. In the end they are just animals.

 

[308win]

Inflicting pain on a dog as a training method demonstrates the trainers incompetance and ignorance. If you are smart enough to show the dog what you expect the dog is smart enough to learn. My uncle's Llewelyn (also Lady) was a good hard working dog, a little hard headed and sometimes had a hard mouth but she would try her best to do as she was trained.

 

[mbt2001]

Yes, you will need to "spank" a setter. They are head strong. HOWEVER, a stong NO needs to always be said. A moment of silence and then show them what they did wrong in an even tone. Do not get physical with your animal unless it is not hearkening to you or is purposefully misbehaving and then running off.

In his life, it should only happen a handful of times and may never happen. Something else to remember, out of whole litter, only a few will be real hunting dogs.... Retrievers have a higher litter success ration, but setters and pointers are different.

Treats and praise and positive confident re-enforcement is the thing. Also, you need to be honest with what the dog is capable of. Just because you have a German Shepard does not mean that he can be trained to attack on command.

And to those who think you do not need to inflict "pain" on a dog... You are wrong. There is no need to be sadistic, however sometimes you have to assert yourself as the Alpha.

 

[silverlance]

whoa ... whipping?!

premise: Whipping is a form of beating in which the desired outcome is to inflict significant pain.

My Jindo can take a maglite to the head, bark "ouch", and then shake it off a half-second later. He's not even a very large dog, about only 75lbs or so.

To give a dog a whipping will require you to spend about 10 minutes chasing, holding, and really laying into that poor animal.

...

HOWEVER - sometimes corporal punishment IS necessary. For instance, my dog once snapped at a stranger as I was introducing myself. No real provocation, it's just that he's very protective/defensive and the other guy put out his hand to shake.

I immediately grabbed him by the scruff of his neck, pushed his head down, and bonked him with the four fingers of my left hand between the ears. I would say that, physically, it hurt him about as much as having an apple dropped on your head for two feet up.

But he got the message - he is not to snap at someone without proper provocation! He knew darn well that the guy was afraid, was not challenging; my dog simply felt that a display of dominance was necessary. I disagreed, make it clear to him my point, and he got the message.

Point is, don't whip your dog to cause him pain, thinking that it will "drive the point home".

Once you develop a real relationship, the fact that you are angry at him enough to physically grab his attention will make him upset enough at himself to want to avoid doing that again in the future.

My dog will rush to defend me against pretty much anything, blindly. That alone precludes whipping.

 

[dfaugh]

I've nerver understood people that beat the snot out of their dogs or use the collars with hooks

.

Inflicting pain on a dog as a training method demonstrates the trainer's incompetence and ignorance.

Total BS.

OK, I'm not a professional trainer BECAUSE people don't listen, I have no problem with the dogs paying attention! However, I competed in a wide variety if dog sports (Schutzhund Sport and AKC obediance) for many years, and worked with many, many trainers from all over the world, several of which have been to multiple WORLD championships) The 2 comments above are PERFECT examples why I don't do it for a living or even a hobby!

Training a dog requires BOTH positive and negative re-enforcement. Anyone that says otherwise doesn't know what they're talking about. Now, insofar as possible, using POSITIVE re-enforcement (food or a toy or just praise) is good. However, it is next to impossible to train (or un-train) some behaviors without the use of negative re-enforcement. Any one that tells you different is full of it.

Now in either case the re-enforcement should be delivered within 1 second of the behavior. Anything longer and they won't associate the re-enforcement with the action. This is one reason I can teach a behavior fast....years of practice at timing.)

Striking a dog is all but meaningless to them, as this is not how they communicate. (and their pain tolerance is MUCH higher than ours) THIS is where the prong collar comes in (Does the poster that criticized them even know how they work?) "Prong" or "Pinch" collars do exactly that...they pinch the dogs neck. They DO NOT poke the dog. Why do they work? Because this is how dogs communicate. When they are puppies, their mother grabs them by the scruff of the neck (and this is the proper way to "correct" a puppie...Scruff of neck, little shake, and a firm NO!) When dogs are older, and playing (or fighting for that matter) they will go for each others neck and bite there.

Prong or pinch collars are WAY more humane than a "choke chain", as its IMPOSSIBLE to do any damage to the dog. With a choke, its possible to actually damage the dogs neck, especially with some breeds. The Germans (and other Europeans) think Americans are barbarians for using choke chains. (Note that in Germany your dog goes everywhere with you, even into a restaurant where the dog will lay under the table while you eat. Their dogs are TRAINED!)

check out this thread: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=230591

 

[Art Eatman]

Let's don't get into arguments BECAUSE of the different perceptions of "What is pain?", okay?

Art

 

[North Texan]

I use two forms of correction when training my dogs. One is to grab them by the scruff of the neck. Dogs immediately understand this as "no". If the negative behavior continues, or the dog does something that is absolutely not to be tolerated, I grab them by the scruff and twist until the dog lays down. They understand this to mean never to do that again.

I don't reward with food because the idea of a "reward" is solely a human concept.

 

[A_Swede_17_1911]

I good book I read about this is GUN DOG. It is an old book, he doesnt advocate
beating the dog. Has some good methods which I think have worked well.

Title of the book to look for is GUN DOG

 

[KaceCoyote]

The "spikey" collars simulate teeth. They dont stab, and are usually quite dull. The point isnt to stab the dog and make it feel pain, its to use small points of pressure to simulate teeth.

 

[Browns Fan]

I have had dogs, have one now, but have never had or trained a hunting dog. However, I forwarded a link to this post to a friend who has trained hunting dogs for years. Here is his reply:

Quote:
"Joe,
I may have to register for this site.
My comment. A whip is a tool. All tools have proper uses, proper in time , place and intensity. There are times when a whip has its utility. My new pup had the habit of charging people walking by the house. This is totally unacceptable for two reasons. First, a passerby could assume the dog is attacking and either hurt the dog or step into traffic (either way I get sued), or worse, the dog could run into the street and get hit by a car. Once, I saw this people walking down the street and I KNEW dog would charge them. I got my buggy whip ready. When she broke for the road, I cracked her across the butt. She doesn't charge the road 99% of the time now and when I see her thinking about it, all I have to do is so her the buggy whip and she becomes a model citizen. PS: I learned the buggy whip technique from one of the best lab trainers I've seen."

 

[1911 guy]

Positive and negative reinforcement.

Both positive and negative feedback are needed to train a dog, but "whipping" in the traditional sense doesn't fit in there. Most dogs will learn very well with just positive reinforcement, they want to please us. Some hard headed (intelligent and strong willed) dogs need the negative once in a while, but think carefully about what you're going to do. Think like a dog. Flipping a dog onto it's back and requiring submission gets their attention. Grabbing them by the scruff of the neck gets their attention. A thump between the ears gets their attention. Giving them a beating does nothing and may well give your dog a bad attitude and set your training back substantially. When we were all kids we learned most from praise and love from our parents. The spankings were applied only when needed, after other attempts failed. Do the same for your dog. Get inside his/her head and think like a dog. Your dog will learn faster and you'll be less frustrated.

 

[IllHunter]

Boxer problem?

"You want hard to train, try Boxers. They got to have a real reason to do what you want them to do. No "just because" will do with them."

I dispute that so does Bruno.Folks who see us together often ask if I speak dog or if he understands english. I tell them both.

 

[U.S.SFC_RET]

www.leerburg.com will answer all of your training needs Don't beat your dog. You will confuse the dog.