Should US cities move to a privatized police force?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Standing Wolf said:
Great concept, but a.) sheeple want someone else to do the doing, and b.) criminals don't even learn from their own mistakes, still less other people's.

If full accountability is built into the equation—I'd have to see it to believe it—there's no reason private police forces couldn't do the job as well as publicly funded.


I hate being a slow typer.

I do not expect the majority of the people to want class III firearms or to be wanting to go and pay for training with that firearm.

However, with that sort of stuff limited to me I am a bitter person and I say it should be limited to others since I like that equality word too much.
 
Seriously, I don't think it would work with the military unless we changed the constitution and our foriegn policy.

With a privatized military wouldn't most of the soliders quit once a war started?
The founders did have a private military. They called it the Militia. (Art. 1 Section 8 did allow for a standing Navy, not an army)

During the second war of American Independence some general wanted the Kansas Militia to go into Missouri to assist the Union Army at the Battle of Lexington (Battle of the hemp bales, back when hemp was still legal).

When it got to the state line, they pulled up, stopped and said, "We are a militia to protect Kansas, not to fight foreign wars in Missouri."

The founders are spinning in their graves at our foreign adventureness.

Remember GW? "Peace, commerce and honest friendship with all nations, entangling alliances with none."

So far we've slid.
 
Yeah you're right. Let's just privatize the whole country. We could call it 'America, Inc.' You'd no longer be a citizen, you'd be an employee instead. We could do the whole reptilian hierarchical corporate culture thing. Your boss could demote you anytime he wanted, because it's a 'free market' and all. You could vote at shareholders meetings based upon the amount of stock you owned. Sounds like a great idea, just what the FF envisioned.


Machine guns!?!?! People want machine guns!?!?! Blood will run in the streets!

Same hysteria drives both arguments.
 
Standing Wolf said:
criminals don't even learn from their own mistakes, still less other people's.

Time and again, hardcore convicts interviewed about the things that deter them from crime include armed victims and big dogs!
 
Yeah you're right. Let's just privatize the whole country

If it does in fact work then why would you oppose it? It would seem that the more empirical data that comes out on it's implementation would indicate whether or not it's a good idea.
 
As a private force -- with no ties to any Government -- the Bill of Rights -- which is a brake on the Government -- has no bearing on private security.

http://cybercrimes.net/private/interrogation.html

Is the Fourth Amendment mentioned in that contract? How about the Fifth? Sixth? Forgot? Oopsie. Oh, well, we can renegotiate the contract next year.

PcopsSRC1.jpg


Trained by a company with maximum profit and minimum (training) cost. Send this guy to a 16 hour class, pay him minimum wage and turn him loose!

http://mediafilter.org/caq/CAQ54p.police.html

LawDog
 
In conjunction with greater person freedom to protect yourself- The true right to keep and bare arms not the ridiculously regulated version of it today, I think this could be great. Allow people to carry a gun where they want how they want. Some idiot tries something there will be five non-idiots to shoot him so it balances out. Also amending laws so that people who defend themselves and others don't get thrown in jail with the animals. If someone breaks into your home or attacks you, you shouldn't need to retreat and within reasonable action be immune from prosecution and civil suit. Within reason is shooting someone if they attack, out of reason is shooting a guy in the head that has submitted, that sort of example is what I go by when saying whiten reason.

Another thought would be a shift to volunteer police forces. Most small towns don't pay their firemen you really only see that in big cities. You volunteer your time for it, are on duty at the firehouse during the time you can be there, and aren't paid the township just pays for the equipment and training. Basically this would go back to a militia type of town security where everyone is responsible for policing with a few on actual call/watch at any one time with others just being responsible to keep on eye out or be called on in an emergency situation where backup is needed. That combined with a small regular police force (maybe state rather then local, or county like a sheriffs office) that would handle actual arrests (the volunteers/militia would hold until a regular could get there to make the actual arrest), holdings in a lockup, execution of warrants, detective work to solve crimes, etc. I think that would be a great system and would reduce the amount of super cop/militarized/above the law/etc. actions of police forces we see more and more of every year.

But just signing it over to a corperation? Not smart at all. They wouldn't be bound to the protections that we have....sort of still have anyway. That and you now have a huge private army, sure the goverments military is bigger but enough to control the towns and cities already in place? It would be impossible to prevent a private takeover and you now have a king of America. The people I am fine with, an actual corperation I think is a seriously bad idea unless they are only used when extra hands are needed, like a company calling in extra security guards durring a high risk time. But definatly not handing it over completly. Also there is certianly no reason to from a cost perspective. You would have to pay enough to cover the salery of the individual hired officer which is likly more then what the city pays officers employeed by them directly. The the higher ups, the corperate heads, etc. A corperation is there to turn as much of a profit as possible you would end up spending much more money.
 
Mr. Lawdog, I firmly believe that you are a good guy, except.........

We are supposed to be nice to moderators and I try real hard to be so.

I would not be the first to suggest that those that work for .gov may have an interest in perpetuating it's existance except that in the attempt to be unbiased and freedom loving I suggest the following:

Professional police as we know them today originated in American cities during the second quarter of the nineteenth century, when municipal governments drafted citizens to maintain order.

http://www.constitution.org/lrev/roots/cops.htm

ARE COPS CONSTITUTIONAL?

Roger Roots*

Uniformed police officers are the most visible element of America's criminal justice system. Their numbers have grown exponentially over the past century and now stand at hundreds of thousands nationwide.1 Police expenses account for the largest segment of most municipal budgets and generally dwarf expenses for fire, trash, and sewer services.2 Neither casual observers nor learned authorities regard the sight of hundreds of armed, uniformed state agents on America's roads and street corners as anything peculiar — let alone invalid or unconstitutional.

Yet the dissident English colonists who framed the United States Constitution would have seen this modern 'police state' as alien to their foremost principles. Under the criminal justice model known to the Framers, professional police officers were unknown.3 The general public had broad law enforcement powers and only the executive functions of the law (e.g., the execution of writs, warrants and orders) were performed by constables or sheriffs (who might call upon members of the community for assistance).4 Initiation and investigation of criminal cases was the nearly exclusive province of private persons.

At the time of the Constitution's ratification, the office of sheriff was an appointed position, and constables were either elected or drafted from the community to serve without pay.5 Most of their duties involved civil executions rather than criminal law enforcement. The courts of that period were venues for private litigation — whether civil or criminal — and the state was rarely a party. Professional police as we know them today originated in American cities during the second quarter of the nineteenth century, when municipal governments drafted citizens to maintain order.6 The role of these "nightly watch" officers gradually grew to encompass the catching of criminals, which had formerly been the responsibility of individual citizens.7
It's sorta of a long read but it makes a lotta sense.

I ask you.........Where in the constitution does it mention "Police"

True, amendments 9 and 10 (the two most ignored amendments, along with no. 3) that we have cover this. Local law enforcement (I like to call them peace officers) are a state function. Each state should cover it's own.

Thus......Each state should have the power to declare it's own police function.

Actually to police, as I remember in the Navy, was to "clean up". I could be wrong.

Trouble is, in this MTV/managed media/public schooling environment we presently suffer with, a total lack of the concept of actual liberty.

I will croak soon so I guess I shouldn't bitch but I am sorry for my decendents.
 
crop circle, the powers not expressly mentioned in the constitution are reserved to the people and the states. if a state, or municipality wants police, the fact that the US constitution makes no mention of it has no bearing on anything.

re: privatization. the key is competition. my jaded, armchar view of things is that police today are incented to make arrests and whatnot. without rehashing the whole problem, i'll say they should be concerned with kind of the bigger picture in a neighborhood. and i think they're NOT because they're a monopoly.
(this isn't a criticism of individual officers, but of the system as a whole)

a private force would have competition and their compensation would be more likely directly tied to "customer satisfaction"... i.e. a community that feels protected but not oppressed.

so i'd support privatization. however, i'm not sure it'd be "better" in most rural areas. i don't think it would be worse.



the other important thing to consider is what is actually the cost of law enforcement? offhand, i'd say it's primarily officers' salaries. i'm shocked every time i hear what police in TN make. they could do as well working for walmart, and they'd have more opportunity for advancement. and oh by the way, you don't have to go to meth houses, break up domestic disputes and get shot at.

maybe there's a lot of cost somewhere else i dont' know about, but i don't think private cops could make much less. there just isn't a lot of savings to be had there.
 
No, no, and NO. For corporations owning private police forces, the bottom line is the profit margin. As in every other industry then, one hires the least-expensive employees one can find ... Corners will be cut in order to increase the profit margin ... at what -- and whose -- expense?

Presently, most of the people who enter the law enforcement profession do so out of idealism and a sense of service -- certainly, not for the huge wages ... Let's keep it that way -- at least we know we'll get some folks who go into the occupation for the right reasons.
 
Someone mentioned the enormous costs of policing America. I guarantee you we could reduce these costs immensely by changing laws, not by by privatizing the police force. We spend billions of dollars fighting drugs- something like 80% of female criminals are imprisoned for drug-related crimes, more than half of male prisoners are incarcerated for non-violent drug offenses. You always hear about officials "cracking down" on drug dealers and getting it off the streets. How do they do this? They throw even more money at the "problem". By simply ceasing to fund this needless expense (financially and socially), there would be far more money to put towards hiring better police officers and training them more without resorting to privatization.
 
How many of you think there is competition and efficiency in Government contracts now? What makes you think private law enforcement would be any better?

The incentives of a private firm would be to protect those that sign the checks and insure they keep their jobs. Rich neighborhoods and such would be heavily protected. Poor neighborhoods would be abandoned or surrounded. They would come up with some shell game to insure the right people were blamed. The campaign contributions would all be made to the right people as well. I think this plan would end up being more expensive than what we have now.

A couple of you are talking about personal security contracts. I don't like this. It sounds to much like a mob protection racket to me. A big company insures that criminals don't mess their their clients, but makes it obvious which homes or businesses are not protected or didn't renew. I think this whole privatization idea just adds more corruption than exists today.

If you are going to put security into the personal hands of citizens, then cut out the contractor nonsense and allow citizens to form their own neighborhood vigilante groups with some liability protection. At least that might force people to take personal interest in their protection. This idea can't be any worse than hiring a private company. Hey, then each neighborhood can elect a vigilante leader who will run the group and set up patrol schedules and appoint watch commanders and such. Hey, they could call that guy the Sherrif maybe. :D ;)
 
Oh no the big bad corporations are gonna get us all!

AHHHHHHH!

Looking at the 20th century how many people did commercial enterprises provide the means to improve their standard of living?

How many people died because of malice or negligence on the part of commercial enterprises?

Again looking at the 20th century how many people were truely helped by government?

How many were killed by government through malice or negligence?

I know the answer to the first question is EVERYONE

And the answer to the last question is 200 million +/-


And some of still want to trust gov to do the right thing? You are afraid to take power away from some and restore freedom to a whole bunch more, why?


Commercial enterprises can not rule you. It is not possible. True there are many that rent politicians to pass certain laws that are unpleasent or evil but that is a problem with the existance of politicians not of commercial enterprises.

Even the biggest of the big Corps rely on customer goodwill to make money. If that goes away so do the profits and soon the company itslef disappears.

Also commercial enterprises have no political legitimacy. We vote for politicians, we engage in hotly contested elections every couple of years and we more or less accept the results. That is political legitimacy. We do this because this how we were taught. It is what the FFs fought for, people paid in lives, limbs and blood for us to have this privilige. We honor them by accepting the results and heeding the laws that are passed.

Can a commercial enterprise claim political legitimacy? No. If the CEO of Coca-Cola suddenly decided he could tap people's phones without a warrant or hold people indefintely without charges he would be brought dow in the time it took an angry mob to form.

What if Bill Gates decided that Linux was unlawful and started sending people round to arrest Linux users? What would happen?

How about if Donald Trump decided that everyone had to have hair that looks like his, what would happen?

Back to the private police force. You don't have to have one, or you could start your own to compete with others on the market this meaning any given PPF would have an incentive not to get unruly, and if one did step over it's bounds it would be shot down quickly because it has no political legitimacy.
 
Who will the corporation contract with in your plan? With the individual or with the local govt?

If we want smaller more efficient government, there are a lot of other areas that would be better places to start. Plus, even if we do this, it does not mean gun control goes away. It would be worse in my opinion as rich politicians would tell people to hire more security protection. I guess I just don't like the idea. :)
 
Cities already privatized police forces......It's their citizens + the Second Amendment. But cities can't seem to figure this out. They just want to give more and more freedoms to the criminals. :barf: :banghead: :cuss:

I'm glad I live out in the middle of nowhere.....the boonies is the best place to live. There is almost no liberals where I live and definitely no cities like San Fran to take away our guns. Thank God.
 
R.H. Lee said:
OK, let's just privatize all government. Not only privatize, but outsource, You know, to save money. We could get perfectly good Pakistani or Indian Congressmen for around 10k/year. Not only would they answer the phone every time, but they'd help you with your computer, too. After all, that's what America is about. Money and the bottom line. :rolleyes:

This wouldn't work. We already have the best congress critters that money can buy.:rolleyes:
 
Old Dog said:
No, no, and NO. For corporations owning private police forces, the bottom line is the profit margin. As in every other industry then, one hires the least-expensive employees one can find ... Corners will be cut in order to increase the profit margin ... at what -- and whose -- expense?

What's wrong with hiring the cheapest employees that meet qualifications? Why do so many businesses offer training subsidies? Why do people make $100k/year? Because they're worth it.

I suppose you must be scared of your house, given that it was probably built using dozens of contractors, all 'cutting corners'. There's a difference between doing something in the cheapest effective way(allowed), and doing substandard work(not allowed).

As with any time you hire a contractor to fulfill a function, you have to specify what you want. Sure, a security company can mess stuff up, not do their job, just like any other contractor.

But just like any other contractor, and unlike most government employees, you can fire them, sue them, etc. One of the problems we've seen with public police forces is that they don't really care if they get sued. The government just raises taxes on the people to make up the fine. If a private police company gets sued, well, that's coming out of their bottom line. If it's too bad, they'll go broke and out of business.

Sure, I can try hiring minimum wage employees. Problem is that I'll be getting dregs and short-termers. Who, in the course of things, are more likely to get me(the owner of the company) fired, sued, fined, etc. If I spend 16 hours training a guy who leaves in three months, I'm out more than if I spend two weeks on a guy who sticks around for 3 years.

The whole idea is that allowing a company a profit margin ends up being cheaper because of increased efficiency versus entrenched butt covering.

A good contracting police company's number one objective is to keep the people who hired it happy. It doesn't even need to be in the contract, because if something unpleasant happens that wasn't in the contract, odds are that it'll be in the contract next time round, and if the people aren't happy with you even if the terms of the contract were fulfilled, that you won't be asked to bid on the contract again. It might not be extended, etc.

Think of it like this:
Officer 1 is a public employee prick. People file complaints against him all the time. Does the police department care? Not really.
Officer 2 is a private employee prick. People file complaints against him all the time. Does the contracting company care? Probably: He's reflecting badly on the company, and there's that review board looking at the complaints, a fine is a possibility, and the contract extension board is about to meet... Oh, Officer 2, you're fired.

Presently, most of the people who enter the law enforcement profession do so out of idealism and a sense of service -- certainly, not for the huge wages ... Let's keep it that way -- at least we know we'll get some folks who go into the occupation for the right reasons.

And how many power hungry people do we get in there? How many unions and government hiring rules let them stay in?

90% of doctors and such are private employees. Heck, we have a strong tradition of private schools, and they get teachers. Sense of service, idealism doesn't mean that it has to be a public job.
 
molonlabe said:
No, They will unionize it then all bets are off and were back to where we started.

Then the contracting company with the bad eggs ends up getting fired, a new one comes along and the bad eggs aren't hired.

Or they stick him in a desk job back in filing...
 
Community Oriented Policing

In the past I have been involved in community oriented policiing when I was an LEO. There is a lot more accountability when this program in in effect. Police Officers are assigned to the same area everyday of the week. They get to know the residents and criminals. If this program is properly administered, it can be very effective.
 
our experience with privatizing the railroads is that they retreat into "that's commercially sensitive information, Mister Voter, we ain't gonna tell it to you".
If the contract is renewable at short terms, they have no incentive to invest in anything that won't pay dividends in the short-term, like investigative computer tools that take years and billions to develop and can't talk to the neighbouring department which bought a different one, and maybe don't work even then.
If you keep fining them, they say, "we can't make a profit out of this contract, we're not interested in renewing it". And neither is anyone else, at the price the citizens are prepared to pay.
Or they call the city one day and say, "we have no money left, either pay us a shedload of extra money or you won't have a functioning service on Monday morning, and it will be your elected ass, Mister Mayor, that will be on the line as far as the voters are concerned".
 
biere said:
How about all states switch to a make my day concept?
All law abiding citizens get to ccw. I just get fed up with the concept that tax dollars are used to arm other folks and pay other folks to protect those who pay taxes and yet those paying taxes are often very limited in what they can ccw and how they can use it.

+1

Its my responsiblitity for protecting me and my family. Other people will not "care" as much as I do. Thats just the way it is.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top