Sig arm brace -- important legal update

[basicblur]

Umm..you do. Transportingthem without prior approval is a crime.

Huh? I assume you're talking about transporting silencers across state lines?

If so, the ATF does not care, and you do not have to get approval to transport a silencer across a state line as you do a SBR.

When I got wind of this, I:
1. Called the ATF - the fellow on the line simply read from the ATF Guide (I was reading the PDF copy on my computer along with him) - he also read the back of form 5320-20 - he said he can find no mention of silencers, etc.
He then shot me up the line - gave me another number to call for more detailed info.
2. Called that number, and the gal seemed to have the answers on hand (did not simply read from the guide / back of the form as the previous agent did).
She told me you do NOT need permission from the ATF to transport a silencer across state lines (state laws still apply) - she said if I did fill out the form and send it in, it would be returned with a letter stating the form was not required.

Hearing that, I told her the letter was what I was after - I plan on keeping a copy of the letter from the ATF stating there is no law against transporting silencers across state lines (AFA the ATF is concerned) to show to any local LEOs that don't know the law / regulations.

If you'll look on the back of Form 1 under definitions, you'll see (emphasis mine):
(7) a muffler or silencer for any firearm whether or not such firearm is included within this definition;

If you'll look on the back of Form 5320-20 (Interstate Transportation of Firearms), you'll notice there is no mention of "silencers, mufflers, etc" as is on the back of Form 4.

Apparently (according to what the ATF is telling me is / is not required), it appears not mentioning silencers / mufflers, etc on Form 5320-20 is not an oversight - they are not mentioned (as they are on Form 1) because AFA the ATF is concerned, you can transport silencers across state lines without any additional paperwork, etc.

As stated, I've gone this far, so I'm not going to get tripped up by a little thing like not having paperwork for transporting a silencer across a state line (even though the ATF says it's not required).

I'll send in the paperwork, and I assume it will either be:
1. Filled out and sent back to me (if the ATF agent I talked to was incorrect).
2. The forms will be rejected and sent back to me with a cover letter stating they are not needed (this is what I'm after).

Whatever they send back to me, it will be with the rest of my paperwork that will follow the silencers.

 

[HRnightmare]

Fair enough if thats what they told you. However I was told specifically they WERE required for silencers AND I filled one out incorrectly and received a phone call telling me IT NEEDED to be corrected before traveling.

I guess it is like the do you need to engrave trust info on SBR's when it wasn't an SBR from the factory debacle. MAny say NO and many say yes, I have it in writing from the NFA that you do and was told in two seperate phone calls you do.

I went ahead and got mine done...rather have it and not need it!!! Meanwhile, the guy who did my engraving and who also produces suppressors as a Class 07 SOT ( I think thats the right title) told me he does not engrave his SBR's and it is NOT required.

 

[MasterSergeantA]

"I am another opponent of the Sig Arm Brace. It was a cool design to get around a law...i suppose. I think the whole "it was created for a disabled Veteran story" is a crock or exaggerated but props on them because they aeem to be making a killing off of it."

It was actually invented by a young veteran for just that purpose. He worked on the prototype with an orthopaedic prosthetics specialist who had experience with military amputees. He posted a number of pictures on AR15.com as it developed...and took a lot of gas over it from people who saw no purpose for it. Then the ATF approved it, Sig saw the money to be made from it and bought his patent, and now the people on AR15.com that beat him up are posting trying to find the best price so they can get theirs.

"Personally I paid the $200 for a real stock and the ability to adjust the length...not sure if thats available on the arm brace."

The length can be varied with the choice of buffer tube. But it wasn't made as a "real stock" so it doesn't need to be adjustable beyond that. And the $200 you paid was accompanied by at least one federal form and, unless you are a LLC or have a trust, photos fingerprint cards and the signature of a local CLEO. And then you waited...

"Granted I SBR'ed mine before the Sig brace came out, with the exception of my M92 that got SBR'd but I would stil ldo it the SBR way. It's $130ish for the stock and $200 for the paperwork... Well worth the exra couple bucks.

Personally the only advantage I see is for people in states that they are not allowed like CA, NY, MA, etc."

I'm not trying to start an argument as I have some AR and AK pistols and none of them have the brace. But it isn't just a couple of extra bucks. I could put the brace on my pistol and let one of my friends borrow it for a little range fun. You can't do that with any NFA item unless you tag along. I could buy the brace over the 'Net, put it on the pistol and head out to the range the same day without waiting 6-9 months for someone to approve it.

 

[pjeski]

You don't need 5320.20 for silencers or AOWs.

 

[dogtown tom]

HRnightmare Fair enough if thats what they told you. However I was told specifically they WERE required for silencers AND I filled one out incorrectly and received a phone call telling me IT NEEDED to be corrected before traveling.

Did you read the instructions on the form 5320.20?
It's clearly stated what NFA firearms require the approval. AOW's and silencers do not. https://www.atf.gov/sites/default/files/assets/pdf-files/atf-f-5320-20.pdf

I guess it is like the do you need to engrave trust info on SBR's when it wasn't an SBR from the factory debacle. MAny say NO and many say yes, I have it in writing from the NFA that you do and was told in two seperate phone calls you do.

Anyone who says no hasn't read a shred of ATF regulations.

Meanwhile, the guy who did my engraving and who also produces suppressors as a Class 07 SOT ( I think thats the right title) told me he does not engrave his SBR's and it is NOT required.

He's an idiot.

 

[Elkins45]

I went ahead and got mine done...rather have it and not need it!!! Meanwhile, the guy who did my engraving and who also produces suppressors as a Class 07 SOT ( I think thats the right title) told me he does not engrave his SBR's and it is NOT required.

This person clearly cannot read, or cannot comprehend.

 

[HRnightmare]

"I am another opponent of the Sig Arm Brace. It was a cool design to get around a law...i suppose. I think the whole "it was created for a disabled Veteran story" is a crock or exaggerated but props on them because they aeem to be making a killing off of it."

It was actually invented by a young veteran for just that purpose. He worked on the prototype with an orthopaedic prosthetics specialist who had experience with military amputees. He posted a number of pictures on AR15.com as it developed...and took a lot of gas over it from people who saw no purpose for it. Then the ATF approved it, Sig saw the money to be made from it and bought his patent, and now the people on AR15.com that beat him up are posting trying to find the best price so they can get theirs.

I was not aware, I assumed Sig had engineers that came up with it. Good on the inventor. He probably made a huge profit.

"Personally I paid the $200 for a real stock and the ability to adjust the length...not sure if thats available on the arm brace."

The length can be varied with the choice of buffer tube. But it wasn't made as a "real stock" so it doesn't need to be adjustable beyond that. And the $200 you paid was accompanied by at least one federal form and, unless you are a LLC or have a trust, photos fingerprint cards and the signature of a local CLEO. And then you waited...

I understand what it was made for, but for what most people are using it for, to circumevent the SBR process it does not have all the benefits of a real stock on a SBR.

"Granted I SBR'ed mine before the Sig brace came out, with the exception of my M92 that got SBR'd but I would stil ldo it the SBR way. It's $130ish for the stock and $200 for the paperwork... Well worth the exra couple bucks.

Personally the only advantage I see is for people in states that they are not allowed like CA, NY, MA, etc."

I'm not trying to start an argument as I have some AR and AK pistols and none of them have the brace. But it isn't just a couple of extra bucks. I could put the brace on my pistol and let one of my friends borrow it for a little range fun. You can't do that with any NFA item unless you tag along.

Incorrect. I can add them to the trust as Trustee's. Quite frankly there are ONLY three people who I would let them be in possession of my NFA items or any of my guns without me being present... A very good friend of mine, my father and my wife. My wife has ZERO interest, my father does not have the knowledge so he only goes to the range if I am going. So that leaves one.

I said $200 for a stock meaning the tax stamp. My AR's were rifles that I stuck a pistol upper on. Really didn't cost me anything but the stamp. The only one I had to go out and buy was when I added a stock to an AK pistol. It was abut $140 for an ace with a folding mechanism, $50 to have a gunsmith install it and $200 for the stamp. I wasn't upset since I got the pistol for less than $400 new. If I Arm braced it isntead of SBR I would have still needed to buy the brace and have someone drill and tap it into the frame. So it cost about the same as it would to buy the Sig Brace and tube and have it installed. Again...only additional cost was the stamp

I do have to concede that the time waiting on the approval is a disadvantage...but really an E-form takes about 4 months. I have WANTED to shoot my guns in SBR configuration before the approval...but I never NEEDED to. It didn't kill me to wait, especially considering I now have it done the way I want.

I stand by my previous statement that I don't regret doing them as an SBR and would do it again. I think the brace is gimmicky, I felt one and it feels awkward and wobbly when shouldered in my opinion. Plus, we hopefully all know the NFA branch has been known to change their mind on things.

 

[HRnightmare]

I didsagree with my engraver's opinion...but I have to agree that the answers I was given were confusing, misleading and even cotradictory...I think we all know the NFA is often confused by themselves.

Quote:
I went ahead and got mine done...rather have it and not need it!!! Meanwhile, the guy who did my engraving and who also produces suppressors as a Class 07 SOT ( I think thats the right title) told me he does not engrave his SBR's and it is NOT required.

This person clearly cannot read, or cannot comprehend.

 

[HRnightmare]

Anyone who says no hasn't read a shred of ATF regulations.

I have to say, he had me doubting myself for a long time. He says that the firearm is simply being halved and the person is not "producing" or manufacturing (i forget which word the NFA uses) anything. He gave the analogy that "if you buy a bunch of lego's and put them together, you didn't actually produce legos" you just took two pre manufactured legos and put them with each other...

Quote:
Meanwhile, the guy who did my engraving and who also produces suppressors as a Class 07 SOT ( I think thats the right title) told me he does not engrave his SBR's and it is NOT required.

He's an idiot.

He is not alone in that opinion... There are many like him. Again, I wan't sure which way was correct as I had been given multiple answers. I figured $80 to engrave and recoat the lower receiver...well worth the piece of mind and the chance it is required and I get arrestes or more likely the gun confiscated.

 

[Theohazard]

I'm not trying to start an argument as I have some AR and AK pistols and none of them have the brace. But it isn't just a couple of extra bucks. I could put the brace on my pistol and let one of my friends borrow it for a little range fun. You can't do that with any NFA item unless you tag along.

Incorrect.

No, he's not incorrect. If the person isn't on the Form 4 or they're not part of the trust, then they can't take your NFA item and borrow it without you being there in the general vicinity.

I can add them to the trust as Trustee's.

Really? Your advice is to just add the friends as trustees when they want to borrow your NFA item? I'm guessing a gun-trust lawyer would advise against doing that.

 

[Sam1911]

Quote:
Meanwhile, the guy who did my engraving and who also produces suppressors as a Class 07 SOT ( I think thats the right title) told me he does not engrave his SBR's and it is NOT required.

He's an idiot.

He is not alone in that opinion... There are many like him. Again, I wan't sure which way was correct as I had been given multiple answers. I figured $80 to engrave and recoat the lower receiver...well worth the piece of mind and the chance it is required and I get arrestes or more likely the gun confiscated.

Good heavens. Here's the writeup, with citations, about the matter as written by an attorney who specializes in this.

http://blog.princelaw.com/2008/09/1...ts-for-a-short-barreled-rifleshotgun-sbr-sbs/

The required information on an Short Barreled Rifle (SBR) or Short Barreled Shotgun (SBS) is:

1. The model (if such one exists),

2. Caliber or gauge,

3. The manufacturer’s name (or recognized abbreviation), and if applicable

4. The city and state (or recognized abbreviation), where you as the manufacturer made the firearm, if it is domestically manufactured.

When you file the Form 5230.1, that's to MAKE AND REGISTER the firearm. Doing the conversion CREATES/MAKES an NFA firearm. Therfore it must be marked as required.

There isn't any controversy. Just some monumentally uninformed folks doing a dangerous disservice.

 

[dogtown tom]

HRnightmare

Quote:
Anyone who says no hasn't read a shred of ATF regulations.

I have to say, he had me doubting myself for a long time. He says that the firearm is simply being halved and the person is not "producing" or manufacturing (i forget which word the NFA uses) anything. He gave the analogy that "if you buy a bunch of lego's and put them together, you didn't actually produce legos" you just took two pre manufactured legos and put them with each other...

He's an idiot and needs to read the regulations and rulings. ATF has held for quite some time that merely assembling an AR lower to an AR upper IS a manufacturing activity. His analogy of Legos is wholly and completely at odds with this ATF ruling:
https://www.atf.gov/files/regulations-rulings/rulings/atf-rulings/atf-ruling-2009-1.pdf

In Revenue Ruling 55-342, ATF's predecessor agency interpreted the meaning of the terms "manufacturer" and "dealer" for the purpose of firearms licensing under the Federal Firearms Act, the precursor statute to the GCA. It was determined that a licensed dealer could assemble firearms from component parts on an individual basis, but could not engage in the business of assembling firearms from component parts in quantity lots for purposes of sale or distribution without a manufacturer's license. Since then, ATF has similarly and consistently interpreted the term "manufacturer" under the GCA to mean any person who engages in the business of making firearms, by casting, assembly, alteration, or otherwise, for the purpose of sale or distribution.

 

[HRnightmare]

Nope. I never gave that as advice... Simpy said it was able to be done.

Really? Your advice is to just add the friends as trustees when they want to borrow your NFA item? I'm guessing a gun-trust lawyer would advise against doing that.

 

[ScottS]

Really? Your advice is to just add the friends as trustees when they want to borrow your NFA item? I'm guessing a gun-trust lawyer would advise against doing that.

In fairness, what I read was "I'd never lend any weapon out, anyway, except maybe to my wife or father, and I could always add them to the trust."

Not everyone is casual about lending weapons out, so it's unfair to make an assumption that he would be adding trustees like sending out dinner invitations.

Sam: like you, I cannot understand the confusion about engraving. I'm always amazed when someone applies and pays a fee to make a firearm (i.e. a fills out a Form 1), and then argues, "Well, I'm not the maker." For the life of me, I cannot see how someone fails to connect those dots.

 

[kimberkid]

I'm always amazed when someone applies and pays a fee to make a firearm (i.e. a fills out a Form 1), and then argues, "Well, I'm not the maker." For the life of me, I cannot see how someone fails to connect those dots.

Ditto ... It is not an SBR until you make it into one ... therefore, you "made" it. Where is the confusion

 

[Theohazard]

Nope. I never gave that as advice... Simpy said it was able to be done.

OK, but you claimed he was incorrect because he said you can't just loan out an NFA item to a friend without tagging along, and your explanation was that he can just add them to the trust. Call that advice or not, but it's still a bad idea.

 

[HRnightmare]

He said it could not be done...I am just saying it can. If we have to get way off topic lets do it.

THE ONLY person listed on my trust is my father. That is SIMPLY because he lives in the same state. My wife isnt even listed because she doesn't care to understand SBR / silencer / MG rules nor would she bother going through the trouble. She would probably just hand them over to the local PD because god damned if she have to jump through a hoop to do something.

 

[HRnightmare]

When you file the Form 5230.1, that's to MAKE AND REGISTER the firearm. Doing the conversion CREATES/MAKES an NFA firearm. Therfore it must be marked as required.

There isn't any controversy. Just some monumentally uninformed folks doing a dangerous disservice.

Hwnce why it was easier for me just to pay the $35 each to engrave them AND it was beneficial as the need to rebuild them is what gave me the drive to learn to build an AR15...I have built probably ten since then.

 

[HRnightmare]

Did you read the instructions on the form 5320.20?
It's clearly stated what NFA firearms require the approval. AOW's and silencers do not

I am not arguing that it does not mention suppressors on 5320. It DOES NOT specifically say they and AOW's are excluded...BUT are you saying you can waltx right thru into NJ, MA, NY, CA etc with a silencer and there be no trouble if you were caught...Technically the 5320 doesn't see an issue with it...HOWEVER I STILL CALL BS a thousand times over.Legal or not I say you will be detained, the suppressor seized and you will deal with mounds and mounds of BS and will spend time some hours /days in a prison cell.

 

[Theohazard]

Did you read the instructions on the form 5320.20?
It's clearly stated what NFA firearms require the approval. AOW's and silencers do not

I am not arguing that it does not mention suppressors on 5320. It DOES NOT specifically say they and AOW's are excluded...BUT are you saying you can waltx right thru into NJ, MA, NY, CA etc with a silencer and there be no trouble if you were caught...Technically the 5320 doesn't see an issue with it...HOWEVER I STILL CALL BS a thousand times over.Legal or not I say you will be detained, the suppressor seized and you will deal with mounds and mounds of BS and will spend time some hours /days in a prison cell.

Of course he's not saying you can take your silencer to a state where they're banned. The 5320.20 -- along with the rest of the NFA provisions -- is federal law. There is no BATFE requirement to complete that form to transport a silencer or AOW across state lines. But of course you need to also follow all applicable state laws; nobody is saying otherwise.

HRnightmare, first you said it was "incorrect" when someone said you can't loan out your NFA item to your buddy if you're not present, and now this? This is all getting a little ridiculous.

 

[Willie Sutton]

BUT are you saying you can waltx right thru into NJ, MA, NY, CA etc with a silencer and there be no trouble if you were caught...


Under the FOPA, you can transit thru like with any other firearm.

Check the definition of a suppressor: It's a "firearm" as defined by federal law and as such the FOPA applies to transit thru states where suppressors are otherwise illegal. Exactly like carrying a rifle that meets the definition of an "assault rifle" or a large capacity handgun magazine. Just pass thru and keep on moving...


Willie

.

 

[Theohazard]

Good point Willie, but I think HRnightmare was somehow implying that dogtown tom was claiming that the 5320.20 allowed you to posses silencers and AOW in states where they're banned, which isn't what he was saying. But you're right that federal law allows you to transport federally-legal firearms through states where they're not legal, so long as you're just passing through.

 

[HRnightmare]

Willie - I understand what it says. I just lived in NY for 12 years. If you go through NY with a handgun I bet you are going to get hassled and delayed if they find it at best. If you go through NY with a suppressor and they find it I would bet my life savings you are going to end up in handcuffs, likely in jail and the suppressor will be confiscated. They will likely not make it easy to get back even when they find to be at fault. Look at DC.

AT least NYC and LI, upstate NY is a whole other attitude and opinion on guns for the most part.

Here is an example of NY's strong anti-gun opinion:
My uncle, a recently retired Battalion CHIEF with the FDNY was pulled over and had a revolver in his glove box. It was legal with ALL NY and NYC laws. He was pulled from the car, the gun was taken, two more officers gave him crap. It wasn't until he pulled his badge did they decide to "let him go without any trouble". I am not saying anyone is above the law but I am saying that if they hassle one of the top ranking public servants.

I live pretty far south in FL, it takes me about 9 hours to get to any other state. So I don't travel much outside the state except on military duty and business so suppressors, SBRs, and MG's don't come with me.

 

[wally]

BUT are you saying you can waltx right thru into NJ, MA, NY, CA etc with a silencer and there be no trouble if you were caught...


Under the FOPA, you can transit thru like with any other firearm.

I think the old saying "you can beat the rap, but you can't beat the ride!" would apply. Would likely cost a lot in legal fees too.

 

[Willie Sutton]

Willie - I understand what it says. I just lived in NY for 12 years. If you go through NY with a handgun I bet you are going to get hassled and delayed if they find it at best.


Know the law.

Know your rights.

Don't do stupid things.

Don't consent to searches.

Live long and prosper...


(Try driving to New Hampshire, Maine, or Vermont. all suppressor states, without driving thru New York. Then let me know how all those people in thost states take them south).


Willie

.