Sig P365 - Force Required to Manually Chamber: Polished Extractor vs Unpolished

Alllen Bundy · Feb 21, 2022

Sig P365 - Force Required to Manually Chamber: Polished Extractor vs Unpolished

The point of this discussion is to show the difference that polishing the face of an extractor can make.

Be clear that this information is applicable to a Sig P365 and may not necessarily apply to other extractors, ESPECIALLY non-pivoting extractor types often used in 1911's.

If you wish to debate the relevance of bullet setback or debate the merits of manual chambering, please go to this discussion where these subjects are already being debated.

Bullet Setback in Sig P365/X/XL/SAS:
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/bullet-setback-in-sig-p365-x-xl-sas.892794/

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For those that carry a P365 +1 with a round in the chamber, you have about 4 methods to chamber the first round. The Sig approved method is to chamber the 1st round from the magazine. After chambering the first round you need to remove the magazine, add another round to the magazine and then re-insert the magazine. Or you can use what is known as a "Barney Mag" which is a magazine that you only use to chamber the first round, eject the magazine, and then insert a magazine already loaded to capacity.

But these methods require extra steps and chambering a round from the magazine can cause bullet setback. If you need to regularly clear your pistol of ammunition you need to keep track of the chambered rounds because of the potential for bullet setback if you chamber the same round from the magazine multiple times.

The other option is to manually chamber the first round and then you can insert a magazine loaded to capacity and be done with it. You never need to worry about bullet setback because setback does NOT occur while manually chambering a round.

There are 3 ways that you can manually chamber a round. Sig does NOT approve of any of these methods and Sig refuses to say whether or not they have actually tested any of these methods with a P365. Sig is NOT being very transparent, but it is what I expect from most corporation.

1. The least stressful method to the extractor. Retract the slide. Insert a cartridge into the firing chamber. Slowly ease the slide onto the cartridge. Then push in the rear of the extractor inward so that the extractor claw will pivot outward far enough for the extractor claw to pass over the rim of the shell case and the slide can return to battery.

2. A slightly more stressful method. Retract the slide. Insert a cartridge into the firing chamber. Slowly ease the slide onto the cartridge. Push the slide forward until the extractor claw pivots outward far enough for the extractor claw to pass over the rim of the shell case and the slide can return to battery.

3. The most stressful method. Retract the slide. Insert a cartridge into the firing chamber. Quickly release the slide onto the cartridge and the extractor claw will pivot outward far enough for the extractor claw to pass over the rim of the shell case and the slide can return to battery.

FYI, I have tested this 3rd method on an extractor 1,830 times. That is the equivalent of manually chambering a round every single day for 5 years. There was no apparent damage to the extractor when examined under 30X magnification.

With all three of these methods, polishing the leading edge of the extractor claw will greatly reduce the friction between the face of the extractor claw and the shell case rim. This greatly reduces the amount of force required to return the slide into battery. I could very easily notice the reduction in force required to manually chamber a round with a polished extractor.

My testing showed that:

It required an average force of about 58.2 Newtons to push the slide into battery with a polished extractor.

It required an average force of about 111.0 Newtons to push the slide into battery with a new unpolished extractor.

It required an average of 90.6% more force to push the slide into battery with a stock unpolished extractor face than with a polished extractor face. That is nearly double the force required.

If you look at the photo you can see that the stock unpolished extractor face (Left side) was grinding off brass from the shell case rims, while no apparent grinding happened to the shell case rims with the polished extractor face.

The testing was performed with a P365 that had the recoil spring assembly removed, the disconnector removed, and the striker assembly removed so that only the actual force required to move the extractor over the shell case rim was measured.

Dummy rounds were made from spent shell cases with new bullets epoxied into the shell cases. I made a total of 20 dummy rounds.
5 - 115 gr 9mm Sig Elite performance JHP with nickel plated brass shell cases,
5 - 115 gr 9mm Winchester Silver Tip JHP with brass shell cases,
5 - 115 gr 9mm Remington Range FMJ with brass shell cases,
5 - 115 gr 9mm Winchester White Box FMJ with brass shell cases.

Walkalong · Feb 21, 2022

It’s just too easy to chamber a round from the mag, then top off the mag, no stress on the extractor. Yes, in my P-365.

JDGray · Feb 21, 2022

You can ride the slide while chambering too, doesn’t slam it in causing possible setback.

Robbins290 · Feb 22, 2022

JDGray said:
You can ride the slide while chambering too, doesn’t slam it in causing possible setback.

been doing that for years. Never even had an issues. Ever!

Alllen Bundy · Feb 22, 2022

JDGray said:
You can ride the slide while chambering too, doesn’t slam it in causing possible setback.

But it still requires that you remove the magazine to add one more round. Extra steps still needed.

One could also argue that it also confuses the muscle memory to be easing the slide closed on a magazine that you just inserted, when you would normally train to slam in a magazine and quickly release the slide.

If you have polished the internal parts, like I have, you can ease the slide closed and it WILL go into battery every time. There is no need to quickly release the slide. EXCEPT under adverse conditions where contaminants may have entered the pistol in a self defense situation. Then releasing the slide quickly is more likely to chamber the round. Hence the reason to always release the slide quickly after inserting a fresh magazine to train for worst case conditions.

halfmoonclip · Feb 22, 2022

I vote with the three fellers above...just granny the slide closed, and avoid abusing the top round. My 365s are such easy feeders that they will chamber a sized casing from the magazine.
As regards muscle memory, just make a habit of letting the slide slam at the range.
BTW, stirred up a sh**storm in the American Rifleman some years ago by suggesting Alan's technique #1, for chambering a round in a 39 series Smith. You'd think I'd dissed motherhood and the flag.

Moon

Jim Watson · Feb 22, 2022

A regular at IDPA ESP and USPSA L10, I am accustomed to the Barney.
A friend had mislaid his third magazine last week and elected to feed the chamber with a single. It made for a long day.
I don't have a P365 or similar.

Alllen Bundy · Feb 22, 2022

halfmoonclip said:
BTW, stirred up a sh**storm in the American Rifleman some years ago by suggesting Alan's technique #1, for chambering a round in a 39 series Smith. You'd think I'd dissed motherhood and the flag.

That is what happens when you contradict the status quo. It doesn't matter what it is.

The series 39 appears to have a pivoting extractor. Pressing the rear of the extractor inward to pass over the shell case rim would likely work fine. Either the extractor claw can pivot outward far enough to pass over the shell case rim or it won't. Either way it is not likely to cause any damage. It's highly doubtful that it would compress the coiled extractor spring enough to weaken it significantly.

JDGray · Feb 23, 2022

Alllen Bundy said:
But it still requires that you remove the magazine to add one more round. Extra steps still needed.

One could also argue that it also confuses the muscle memory to be easing the slide closed on a magazine that you just inserted, when you would normally train to slam in a magazine and quickly release the slide.

If you have polished the internal parts, like I have, you can ease the slide closed and it WILL go into battery every time. There is no need to quickly release the slide. EXCEPT under adverse conditions where contaminants may have entered the pistol in a self defense situation. Then releasing the slide quickly is more likely to chamber the round. Hence the reason to always release the slide quickly after inserting a fresh magazine to train for worst case conditions.

You say it confuses your muscle memory to ease the slide forward when I suggest it, but you also do it? I appreciate your time and experimenting, but its not that hard to just top off your mag. I might have missed your reason for doing all this, as I did not read the entire novel of a post, so forgive me. Topping off your mag is not usually done while training, so I don't see this as an issue. Letting your gun run dry in a gun fight, should also be avoided. I like John Wick! lol

sparkyv · Feb 23, 2022

I appreciate your study, Alllen Bundy, your methodology seems sound. Setback can be problematic for some. Since I have no need to clear my CCW on a regular basis, I just use the SIG approved method and verify via the witness hole.

I enjoyed your failure to RTB post. Now I need to check if my slide will RTB with only recoil spring pressure.

Alllen Bundy said:
Failure to Return To Battery Prevention - P365/X/XL/SAS
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...n-to-battery-prevention-p365-x-xl-sas.892742/

Alllen Bundy · Feb 23, 2022

JDGray said:
You say it confuses your muscle memory to ease the slide forward when I suggest it, but you also do it? I appreciate your time and experimenting, but its not that hard to just top off your mag. I might have missed your reason for doing all this, as I did not read the entire novel of a post, so forgive me. Topping off your mag is not usually done while training, so I don't see this as an issue. Letting your gun run dry in a gun fight, should also be avoided. I like John Wick! lol

This about quality/process control. Eliminate unnecessary steps and you reduce the potential for problems. Do it the same way every time. This is how quality is maintained in manufacturing. It's a well proven successful technique.

I manually chamber the first round and NEVER need to worry about bullet setback unless I'm actually in a self defense situation where I might not fire the entire magazine, and that would be extremely rare. Even though in normal circumstances I cannot ease the slide forward slowly enough to prevent the slide from going into battery, whenever I insert a magazine when the slide is locked back, I release the slide quickly, because during adverse conditions the slide might need momentum to return to battery. There is never an ambiguity. It reduces the chance of error. I don't need to screw around having to insert a magazine twice just to carry +1. I don't need to devote an extra magazine to use as a Barney mag.

Every time you insert a magazine when the slide is open is training. Just because you may do it when you aren't at a training range doesn't make it any less training. It's still part of muscle memory.

Alllen Bundy · Feb 23, 2022

sparkyv said:
I just use the SIG approved method and verify via the witness hole.

FYI, if you use a longer cartridge, like a Speer Gold Dot, if you ever need to eject an unspent round from a P365 when it is the second to the last in the magazine, if you do not rack the slide quickly enough, it will jam in the witness slot in the barrel and prevent the slide from moving forward or backward. Removing the magazine allows the round to drop out. It may be possible to jam like this when the bullet is in other positions in the magazine. But it will always jam as the 2nd to the last round if you do not rack quickly enough.

sparkyv said:
Now I need to check if my slide will RTB with only recoil spring pressure.

If you have put enough rounds through your P365 they may have polished the parts sufficiently. But not likely if your P365 is new.

CNobbe · Feb 23, 2022

Alllen Bundy said:
If you have polished the internal parts, like I have, you can ease the slide closed and it WILL go into battery every time.

Not everyone wants to void the warranty on their 365. You could just chamber a round the way everyone else does, and has for over a century.

Alllen Bundy · Feb 23, 2022

CNobbe said:
Not everyone wants to void the warranty on their 365. You could just chamber a round the way everyone else does, and has for over a century.

A century ago we were were not using red dot optics. We did not use LASER sights. We did not use LED lights on our guns, We did not have synthetic lubricants, We did not use cell phones. We did not own our own computers, We did not have the internet. We did not use microwave ovens. We did not have video cameras. We did not use electric screwdrivers. We did not have automobiles with seat and shoulder belts, air bags, fuel injection, automatic transmissions, with radial tires, or cup holders.

I am not a sheep. I do not do things just because everyone else does them. I need a good reason to follow the crowd.

It's doubtful that manually chambering would void Sig's warranty, and if it did at all, that would likely be restricted to the extractor which is a consumable part anyway.

I am more worried about my P365X working reliably when I need it to than I am a warranty. A warranty doesn't do much good if you are dead. I'll wager that the reliability of my P365X is better than any brand new P365X right out of the box.

JDGray · Feb 23, 2022

Alllen Bundy said:
A century ago we were were not using red dot optics. We did not use LASER sights. We did not use LED lights on our guns, We did not have synthetic lubricants, We did not use cell phones. We did not own our own computers, We did not have the internet. We did not use microwave ovens. We did not have video cameras. We did not use electric screwdrivers. We did not have automobiles with seat and shoulder belts, air bags, fuel injection, automatic transmissions, with radial tires, or cup holders.

I am not a sheep. I do not do things just because everyone else does them. I need a good reason to follow the crowd.

It's doubtful that manually chambering would void Sig's warranty, and if it did at all, that would likely be restricted to the extractor which is a consumable part anyway.

I am more worried about my P365X working reliably when I need it to than I am a warranty. A warranty doesn't do much good if you are dead. I'll wager that the reliability of my P365X is better than any brand new P365X right out of the box.

I had a P365SAS, thing was dead reliable, very accurate, hated the gimmicky sight. Traded it for a P239. Your saying your P365 was more than 100% reliable?

Alllen Bundy · Feb 23, 2022

JDGray said:
Your saying your P365 was more than 100% reliable?

Reliable under ideal conditions doesn't say much. In what kind of adverse conditions did you test your P365SAS. Did it always chamber a round no matter how slowly you eased the slide closed? Mine does.

My slide is far easier to retract with a magazine loaded to 14 rounds than a stock Sig is when loaded to 12 rds. I've got a lot more room for error and contamination than does a stock Sig.

JDGray · Feb 23, 2022

When I look for a used gun, I don’t even consider the ones with home gunsmith polish jobs on the barrel, let alone anywhere else. Your a used gun buyers worst nightmare. “I tested the extractor 2000 times, chambering over a cartridge, just cuz Sig says not too!” That don’t give me any comfort. Lmao! We need a new wheel, please focus your efforts

Alllen Bundy · Feb 23, 2022

JDGray said:
When I look for a used gun, I don’t even consider the ones with home gunsmith polish jobs on the barrel, let alone anywhere else. Your a used gun buyers worst nightmare. “I tested the extractor 2000 times, chambering over a cartridge, just cuz Sig says not too!” That don’t give me any comfort. Lmao! We need a new wheel, please focus your efforts

Actually 1,830 times. But I don't manually chamber a round and let the slide slam closed. But on the off chance that the slide slipped out of my fingers and slammed closed into battery, I have reasonable certainty that it won't cause any significant damage.

I haven't done anything radical to my pistol. Any of the points that I have polished would have eventually been smoothed out after many, many thousands of rounds of ammo. I just speed up the break in with a bit of polishing.

You haven't told me about what kind of torture test you put your pistol through to prove it's reliability.

CNobbe · Feb 23, 2022

Alllen Bundy said:
A century ago we were were not using red dot optics. We did not use LASER sights. We did not use LED lights on our guns, We did not have synthetic lubricants, We did not use cell phones. We did not own our own computers, We did not have the internet. We did not use microwave ovens. We did not have video cameras. We did not use electric screwdrivers. We did not have automobiles with seat and shoulder belts, air bags, fuel injection, automatic transmissions, with radial tires, or cup holders.

And yet, people were loading their pistols the same way we do now...

Homerboy · Feb 25, 2022

I don’t torture test my guns. The company that makes them is supposed to do that. I shoot them and clean them. Other than the Beretta 92, I have not heard of any weapon that it is wise to manually insert a round into the chamber. 30 years of carrying a weapon, and I haven’t felt burdened by dropping the magazine and topping off a round.

On another note, I am concerned with setback and I rotate my rounds. Easing the slide forward to chamber a round sounds like a good idea to avoid it, but I’ve always been told to let it slam home to make sure the round is fully chambered and the slide is in battery.

Alllen Bundy · Feb 25, 2022

Homerboy said:
I don’t torture test my guns. The company that makes them is supposed to do that.

Sorry, but I'm not going to assume that they have done all of the necessary testing, especially since I asked Sig point blank if they had done ANY manual chambering testing of the P365 and they REFUSED to tell me!!! That makes Sig incredibly suspicious when they won't share basic safety testing testing data.

I've also worked in manufacturing for most of my career and I'm aware of some of the shady things that corporations do. I was once asked to falsify UL safety testing data!!! I flatly refused. UL safety testing was one of my job responsibilities.

Homerboy said:
Other than the Beretta 92, I have not heard of any weapon that it is wise to manually insert a round into the chamber.

If it's safe to manually chamber a Beretta 92, why would you assume that it's not safe to manually chamber other pistols with pivoting extractors? Have you ever seen any actual proof that manually chambering a pistol with a pivoting extractor will cause any damage? If a pivoting extractor cannot withstand manual chambering it is also not likely to be a reliable extracting shell cases.

I've manually chambered over a Sig extractor 1,830 times with no sign of damage. That is fives years of manually chambering once per day. At $8.45 I'm not going to carry with that extractor, but I may use it for future tests.

Homerboy said:
30 years of carrying a weapon, and I haven’t felt burdened by dropping the magazine and topping off a round.

You can feel anyway that you like. I don't like to do useless things.

Homerboy said:
On another note, I am concerned with setback and I rotate my rounds

And I eliminate the possibility of setback ever occurring by manually chambering. My process is less prone to errors.

Homerboy said:
Easing the slide forward to chamber a round sounds like a good idea to avoid it, but I’ve always been told to let it slam home to make sure the round is fully chambered and the slide is in battery.

Do you always believe what you are told? My parents told be about Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny. The only good reason to let a slide slam shut is to maintain a consistent process that works in worst case situations. I consider that a good reason.

CNobbe said:
And yet, people were loading their pistols the same way we do now...

And that is likely to be a carryover habit of loading firearms with non-pivoting extractors, like a 1911, that may suffer from extractor damage.

The P365 uses a pivoting extractor that is not likely to fail from manually chambering.

Homerboy · Feb 25, 2022

Bunch, I think you need to get a grip. I hope you tell any potential buyer of one of your firearms that you kitchen table gunsmithed the gun. I would take the advice of the company that has spent millions designing the weapon, more millions producing them, and employs engineers and employees with actual training on the product, totaling hundreds of years of experience, over a kitchen gunsmith with a Dremel. My way has been working fine more many years. Don’t need to change it now, especially at the advice of some home schooled gunsmith. Go polish your extractor some more.

Ethan Verity · Feb 25, 2022

When I load up my handgun to put it in service I just ease the slide forward gently to chamber the round. This is a very deliberate act, it is NOT messing up my muscle memory for quick reloads (which I practice at the range, and when dry firing with snap caps) ... I think that's a silly reason to not load your chambered round gently if you wanted to.

Alllen Bundy · Feb 25, 2022

Ethan Verity said:
When I load up my handgun to put it in service I just ease the slide forward gently to chamber the round. This is a very deliberate act, it is NOT messing up my muscle memory for quick reloads (which I practice at the range, and when dry firing with snap caps) ... I think that's a silly reason to not load your chambered round gently if you wanted to.

Consistent process control is how you improve quality and avoid mistakes. You have two different ways that you release the slide after inserting a magazine. That is a potential for problems.

Robbins290 · Feb 25, 2022

[QUOTE=" If it's safe to manually chamber a Beretta 92, why would you assume that it's not safe to manually chamber other pistols with pivoting extractors? Have you ever seen any actual proof that manually chambering a pistol with a pivoting extractor will cause any damage? If a pivoting extractor cannot withstand manual chambering it is also not likely to be a reliable extracting shell cases.
[/QUOTE]

Other pistols are designed different. Some can break. I have broke one my self.

Seems like alot of work. Could drop the slide to chamber a round. Pop out the mag and top it off. I been rechambering rounds for about 20 years. And i going a year with current load out. Since ammo can be scarce. I have seen zero set back. They get chambered 2-3 times a week to.

Sig P365 - Force Required to Manually Chamber: Polished Extractor vs Unpolished

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