Sight help

[Iggy]

Anybody have an recommendations for an optical or red dot sight to mount on a RWS Diana LP8 springer hand gun?

My eyes are getting bad enough that the fixed sights don't work very well anymore.

I'm gonna use it for pests at less than 50 yards.

 

[GLOOB]

How close do you shoot?

A red dot is usually set at 100 yards, and parallax will make it tough to make a group at close range. You will have to carefully center the dot in the glass to get repeatability. That defeats half the purpose. You will still get fast target acquisition, at least. Bullseye shooters use them, but they are shooting at 50 yards. Action pistol shooters use them, but 3" groups are good in that game. I have tried a red dot on an air pistol, and it was pretty hopeless, IMO. With a rifle, sure. You get a cheekweld, at least.

Most pistol scopes are also fixed at 50 or 100 yards, but at least with a pistol scope you already have to center the hairs pretty close, else you won't see anything, at all. And you get magnification. But the downside is with a fixed AO, you probably won't be able to get a clear focus inside of 7-8 yards, and the higher the magnification, the bigger the problem. And at close range, you will get some blurring of the crosshairs when you focus on the target. In some lighting conditions, you might get into situations where the hairs "disappear" on you at shorter ranges.

I bought a 4x for a pneumatic pistol just to check pellet groupings. But after I took it off, I realized how useful it is. I can just about hit my own pellet holes at 10 yards, with an impromptu rest. (And I don't have to get up to see the holes!) I put the scope back on to stay. I have two of those pistols, anyway. Mine is a Simmons Pro Hunter, but I have no idea if it would hold up to a springer. Parallax is fixed at 100 yards, but it hasn't been a significant problem as long as the target is farther than 15 feet. BTW, the difference between 50 and 100 yard parallax is pretty tiny. The difference between 10 yards and 15 yards is probably 3-4 times as much. So the difference between a 50 yd scope and a 100 yd scope is almost moot. They're going to be almost equally off at 10 yards. And the point where a 4x scope starts to blur significantly might be different by a foot or two. But the 100 yard scope makes a better telescope.

For an air pistol in general, and for pests farther than 15 feet in particular, I would probably want a scope. Close doesn't count with a single shot airgun. I would look into a Crosman Centerpoint 2x20 scope, maybe. Their rifle scopes are all spring gun rated. Maybe give them a call.

My eyes are getting bad enough that the fixed sights don't work very well anymore.

I might be too old, myself. But I could never shoot those fiberoptic sights well to begin with.

 

[Iggy]

Gloob,
Thanks for the info. I will do some serious looking based on your input.

I have an old Beeman R1 with a scope, and it is the most accurate thing I own.

I live in town now and have to be somewhat sneaky at taking pests and the pistol is a little be handier for that purpose. I've probably got more gun than I need, but the R1 has been such a shooter that I just followed up with another springer.

People are telling me about "artillery hold" for spring guns. etc. Trying that, I find the gun is too close and the "iron sights" are too coarse for accurate shooting. The gun weighs just over 3 pounds, I'm 72 and steadying a heavy and gun isn't as easy as it use to be.


I need to get the gun out there a bit.. Like normal handguns. I don't need any magnification at least at this point. I invariably am able to shoot from a "rest or barricade" type situation.
Out the window in other words.

I will look at scopes. Those I understand. The gun shoots very well. If I can rest it at arms length long enough, I can shoot very nice groups. It's just getting the critters to hold still long enough for this old duffer to get a good sight picture. I need minute of squirrel or rabbit accuracy from 10 to 20 yards. Anything further than that, I'll get the rifle.

Thus the questions about other options. I have no experience with red dots, aim points, holographic sights so I am flying blind in more ways that one. I was in hopes that with one of those options, I could get on target quicker.

I do appreciate your time.

Regards,
Iggy

 

[GLOOB]

Hmm. I don't think you will get the proper eye relief for a scope using an artillery hold on a pistol. I suppose a red dot might work better.

If that fails, try a Crosman 760 for $35.00!

 

[Iggy]

I'm not impressed by the artillery hold.

I'll take a look at the 760 too

Thanks

 

[chicharrones]

Anybody have an recommendations for an optical or red dot sight to mount on a RWS Diana LP8 springer hand gun?
View attachment 726125

What are your scope mounting options for that? Does it have a rimfire dovetail or tapped holes for installing a section of Weaver/Picatinny rail?

If you can install a Weaver Picatinny rail, the nearly ubiquitous Bushnell TRS-25 might make a great red dot for your air pistol.

If you are stuck with a rimfire dovetail, then a tube type red dot that you can select the proper rings for would mount up well. I have a Chinese clone of an Ultradot that can use rimfire scope rings. I've used it on rimfire handguns and rifles. You'll need 30mm rings for the Ultradot clones.

I also have the aforementioned Bushnell TRS-25, but it needs a Weaver/Picatinny mount. I've used the Bushnell on rimfire rifles and a handgun.

I like the tube type red dots for precise handgun shooting over the open type red dot sights. I got into red dots on handguns for the same exact reason you are mentioning. Old eyes. Red dots are a fantastic shooting aid without having to resort to crosshair wiggling magnification on a pistol.

I sight my non-defense red dots for a 6 O'Clock hold. That way if all you can get is a 3 MOA dot (which covers 1.5" at 50 yards) then you can still aim at small targets. Plus, the tube type I mention assists the eye to find the red dot because you have to look down a tube.

By the way, leave your front sight mounted. I use the front sight to help me find the dot in a hurry. It's simple, line the gun up to the target with the muzzle up a few degrees. Lower the muzzle until you find the front sight in the red dot tube, then lower the muzzle further and the red dot will appear.

What I like about red dots on handguns is that I can shoot just as well freehand as I used to be able to shoot with iron sights when my eyes were better. I have a real hard time shooting handguns freehand with magnified optics.

 

[chicharrones]

Hey, Iggy. Check out the Airguns of Arizona Blog here. http://www.airgunsofarizona.com/blog/2009/06/rws-lp8-classic-in-making.html

 

[Iggy]

Chicharrones,
The gun has an 11mm scope mounting rail. I can see a Weaver adapter in my future.

I appreciate your input and the link.

I'm sure I'm going to like this gun and whatever sighting system I come up with if I can get it broke to lead.

Thanks again for the response.

 

[Iggy]

Well I jumped right in the middle of things. Talked to a feller at Pyramid Arms that has one about like it.

Got a BSA Reflex Sight and some low mount 11 mm to Weaver mounts on the way

I'd sure like to thank you guys for your input. It gave me some serious readin' material and enough smarts to at least ask some reasonable questions.

It's a start.

 

[chicharrones]

Sounds good. I'd like to hear what you think about it once you put some lead downrange.

 

[Iggy]

I'll do that.

 

[Peter M. Eick]

Iggy, (Hi by the way)

I also am having the eye issue with the sights so I have started to use more red-dots and scopes. On the red dot on pistols, I like the tube type more then the flat sheet of glass types. I am putting UltraDots on my target guns and they work great. I particularly like the lack of parallax in my ultradot Matchdot

http://www.ultradotusa.com/ultradotdist2010_006.htm

Regarding the artillery hold with your R1. I just got back into the R1 recently and found I had a to really play with my hold a bit to get good results. Now I rest the gun on my left hand with the fingertips indexing off the scope turret and the right hand just rests on the palmswell with the right thumb carrying the weight. Works well for me.

Like you though, I miss a handgun and open sights. How have you liked your spring pistol so far?

 

[Iggy]

Howdy back at you. I just got the reflex sight on the gun. I thought I might have to go with a drooper mount, but didn't have to do so.

I'm still fine tuning the thing but so far, I'm liking the combination quite well.

The gun and I will never be Olympic competitors, but I have shot minute of bunny groups at 50 feet. If I can just get the groups where I'm aiming, I may be dangerous. At this point I shooting a skosh low and I've just got to get it up a bit.

If I can hit pests at 25 to 35 yards with old eyes, I'll be happy.

I probably bought too much gun, but I like my old Beeman R1 rifle so well that I just naturally went that way. Whether the sight can withstand the recoil of a springer gun remains to be seen, but the PA salesman said it should be fine.

 

[GLOOB]

I particularly like the lack of parallax in my ultradot Matchdot

... at 50 meters.

A scope or red dot can only be parallax free at a single distance at any given time. The sight does not know if you're shooting at the bunny that is 50 yards away or the rock that is 20 feet away. So when you move your head away from dead-center, and that bunny moves across the glass twice as much as the rock does from your perspective, the dot can't automatically figure out what you're aiming at.

With a handgun, pretty much anything over 25 yards, you can forget about parallax unless you're a really good shot. But for close up shots, between 5-25 feet, you need to get to know your red dot and/or keep the dot centered for each shot, and that's in addition to figuring the hold-over for the height of the sight over the bore.

Essentially, if you put the dot on a close target using the upper part of the glass, you are going to miss low. If you put the dot on the target in the right part of the glass, you are going to miss left. You can use that to your advantage. Intead of holding over on a 10 foot target, you can place the dot on the target using the lower part of the glass.


OP:
Bunnies at 50 feet sounds great for a spring piston handgun. I'm curious, does the gun shoot that well unsupported? How does it shoot from a rest? Heck, at 35 yards, I am happy to hit a small pest animal with an air rifle. I could maybe do it with my 1377, if I bring my shooting bench.

 

[Iggy]

Gloob,

I haven't shot it enough to really make a judgement call.. It weighs over 3 pounds, so off hand for a 72 year old is a shaky proposition at best.That's why I decided to try an optic sight.

Most of my shots, I can use a window frame for a barricade shot like in the old PPC days.

I am gonna have to learn not to fight the optic sight wiggle too. When rested on my thumb ahead of the trigger guard, gripping fairly loosely with the shooting hand, and centering the dot, I am able to get decent groups.

This is like the old timer's use to say about muzzle loaders, "Ya got to learn the gun, Sonny", well I'm still learnin'.

I appreciate the info on parallax and stuff. I'm pretty much able to keep the dot centered in the scope, but I'll keep that in mind.