signs carry the weight of law?

[tkaction]

When I read many of the threads that talk about signage I understand the part about sign size and lettering when forbidden to carry is written into a states regulations(law).

But..doesn't any sign, in any state, carry the weight of law if any place posts a "no weapons" sign even if it is only a violation of trespassing?

 

[MrWesson]

It depends on your state

Florida for example
Sign means nothing unless you are made and asked to leave(must be warned first) after that warning if you refuse it is armed trespassing(a felony).

By carrying a gun into the store you are not trespassing but only after being asked to leave and refusing.

The law allows businesses to ask anyone to leave for any reason(certain restrictions like race/disabled). Armed or not if you refuse you are trespassing and being armed makes it worse.

What state do you live in?

 

[danez71]

But..doesn't any sign, in any state, carry the weight of law if any place posts a "no weapons" sign even if it is only a violation of trespassing?

Not in AZ.

In AZ the sign and where its required to be posted is well define even down to the weight of the paper (that part being silly IMO).

If the sign doesnt meet the definition... and they ask you to leave... and you dont.... then yes, its tresspassing.

Per the law.... they have to ask you to leave 1st.

 

[64zebra]

yep, depends on the state

In Texas CHL holders can only be barred by the 30.06 sign. The law specifically says a CHL holder can't be charged with trespassing if the property owner is basing it solely on the fact the CHL holder is carrying.
If a CHL holder sees the gunbuster, or other no weapons/firearms signs it means nothing as far as the law is concerned.
Only signs meeting the requirements are valid and enforceable.

that being said, if the property owner asks them to leave (not based on having a gun) the person still has to leave for regular trespassing law

 

[41]

Alabama is about the same as Florida. The sign means nothing legally (except for federal buildings and maybe a few other places). If you are caught with a weapon and are asked to leave, and refuse to leave you are trespassing.

 

[Gary Slider]

I have read an many articles about gun signs as I could find. One item seldom mentioned is when a State has a stand your ground law. Every stand your ground law has wording similar to: If you are in a place you can legally be. So if you go into a place that has a sign but they have to ask you to leave before you are breaking a law are you in a place you can legally be? You are not breaking a law but were informed you can't be there. It will take a court case or two to settle that but if you go into a place that has a sign and have to use your firearm even though you are not breaking a law as they have to ask you to leave first it could or could not complicate things. Laws are not written black and white in most instances. They are gray so they can plug the facts in. Those gray areas are what gives attorneys the opportunity to introduce things that help their client or the DA the opportunity to introduce things that can make you look bad. Just something to think about next time you see a sign that says you are not welcome.

 

[tkaction]

OK, I have that much that I understand.
I am in PA. Where recently I have been lead to understand that if there is a sign and I violate it i can be charged with a flagrant trespass even if I had not been warned.

 

[tkaction]

I have read the trespass law in PA. I am not talking about staying if I have been asked to leave. I would leave. I think that because pa. law preempts local law that a ccw or even open carry, which are both enumerated in the PA firearms law, would be your defense(privileged to be there as written in the trespass law) and would require the property owner or controller to warn you first.

 

[MrWesson]

I have read an many articles about gun signs as I could find. One item seldom mentioned is when a State has a stand your ground law. Every stand your ground law has wording similar to: If you are in a place you can legally be. So if you go into a place that has a sign but they have to ask you to leave before you are breaking a law are you in a place you can legally be? You are not breaking a law but were informed you can't be there. It will take a court case or two to settle that but if you go into a place that has a sign and have to use your firearm even though you are not breaking a law as they have to ask you to leave first it could or could not complicate things. Laws are not written black and white in most instances. They are gray so they can plug the facts in. Those gray areas are what gives attorneys the opportunity to introduce things that help their client or the DA the opportunity to introduce things that can make you look bad. Just something to think about next time you see a sign that says you are not welcome.

Pretty black and white to me.

If you have to use your gun and they have a sign then you did not break the law end of story. If they ask you to leave and you refuse and then for some reason use your gun then you broke the law.

I have searched over and over and not one test case exists in the country.

 

[Gary Slider]

MrWesson, The point was if you go into a place that has a sign even though they have to ask you to leave are you in a place you are legally allowed to be like is stated in all the Stand your ground laws? Will the stand your ground cover you from civil court like a lot of them do as they can argue you were not in a place you could legally be in. There is no cases I am aware of either but the stand your ground laws have come around in the last few years. But are you within the stand your ground law if you would have to use your firearm if you go into a place that is posted and they have to ask you to leave?

 

[MrWesson]

MrWesson, The point was if you go into a place that has a sign even though they have to ask you to leave are you in a place you are legally allowed to be like is stated in all the Stand your ground laws? Will the stand your ground cover you from civil court like a lot of them do as they can argue you were not in a place you could legally be in. There is no cases I am aware of either but the stand your ground laws have come around in the last few years. But are you within the stand your ground law if you would have to use your firearm if you go into a place that is posted and they have to ask you to leave?

Any place you are legally allowed to be is pretty clear in the stand your ground law.

You are legally allowed to be in a business that posts signage as it is not in the Florida statutes of prohibited places and signs are not law. You are not breaking the law by carrying in a business that posts a sign and you are legally allowed to be there. Stand your ground laws apply.

I just dont see any circumstance where you would be made then be forced to shoot but if you are asked to leave and defend yourself on your way out then maybe it wont apply but this scenario is ridiculous.

Case law does not exist because not one single CCWer that I can find has been charged with armed trespassing.

 

[WardenWolf]

In Arizona, and other places with similar laws, the signs are a statement of policy by the establishment and do not carry force of law. All they effectively mean is that, if they see your weapon, you will most likely be asked to leave. At this point it is a simple trespassing situation, because if anyone with authority to do so asks you to leave, for any reason, failure to comply is trespassing. However, you must be asked first.

Then there's places like Texas, where the signs DO carry force of law.

 

[Mousegun]

In Tennessee it can be up to a $500 fine and loss of carry license.

In past threads I often find that most people here will say no guns no $$$ and the establishment has the right to ban a person from entering if it wants to.

It would be nice to have a policy in Tn. that doesn't criminalize a person if he or she is found carrying due to a ligdamently missed sign but for the most part, the general consensus of the people here seems to be don't give any business to anyone who bans carry but it also seems like if you are in a state where the sign doesn't carry the weight of the law, then carry on.

I have been in awkward situations where a group of people I was with, at a good distance from my car, decided to enter a posted restaurant. It is situations like that where the Tennessee law is really an hindrance.

 

[Walking Dead]

I wouldn't want to get in that kinda legal battle.

 

[Mags]

Depends on the state. (period)

 

[Double Naught Spy]

I would have to check, but I seem to recall that Texas had an exception to being discovered via an act of justified self defense. Outside of that context, a legal 30.06 sign does constitute official notification and so carrying where posted is trespassing because you have been duly informed. You don't have to be given the choice of refusal to leave at that point.

 

[Owen Sparks]

I used to work as a bouncer in a bar. If I told someone that they had to leave and they refused to go, they were legaly trespassing at that point and could be arrested and charged as such. In my state a verbal or posted warning is all it takes.