Simplicity and Old School designs.

[scythefwd]

hey invented the HiPower, which was double stack double action

Hi power is single action

 

[2ifbyC]

There are many ways to evaluate a firearm, e.g., reliability, design, accuracy, beauty, etc. Therefore, it would be difficult stating a date that demarcates an era relative to good and bad.

Henry markets their rifles based on tradition, i.e., forged steel, brass, walnut. The nostalgia side of me favors the old world craftsmanship on the guns of yesteryear, but my Colt Python, Browning Hi-Power, Browning Medalist, S&W Model 19, and Colt 1911 were all manufactured after 1952.

Fortunately, we have the ability to choose. While high tech “plastic” guns may not conjure up amorous thoughts, it would be hard to deny their reliability, light weight, and accuracy.

So I pose this statement as a conundrum: They don’t make them like they used to.

 

[old lady new shooter]

"The purpose of blueing was rust protection."

DUMB NEWBIE QUESTION: Are you saying stainless steel will rust?

 

[Elkins45]

Stainless will "stain less" but it can still rust under certain circumstances. Most stainless guns with dark finishes are done for glare reduction.

I don't believe Glock slides are stainless.

 

[45_auto]

Are you saying stainless steel will rust?

Yes it will. It's very common to see stainless guns pitted from rust.

Stainless steel is an alloy that contains 10.5% or more of chromium (Cr) and iron (Fe) in excess of 50%. Chromium is the element that makes stainless steel so resistant to stains. In fact, stainless steel should be called stain resistant steel, as it can stain but is less likely to do so than pure steel. Stainless steel is also very easy to care for and doesn’t require regular maintenance to keep its beauty.

Here's as couple of pics of a .44 Mag Ruger Redhawk that was caught in the rain several years ago. The owner very carefully wiped down the outside but never disassembled it to dry or lube the internals. Only indication of anything wrong was a slightly gritty feeling action which the owner (and everyone else who shot it in the last few years) never noticed. Probably the only reason that I noticed it was because we were shooting it side by side with my .357 Redhawk and it wasn't quite as smooth. However, it cleaned up very nicely with only minor pitting where it couldn't be seen.

 

[45_auto]

How many of todays plastic wonders still be around in 50 or 75 years .

What do you think will happen to them?

My Remington Nylon 66 was made in 1959 (that's VERY early plastic technology), looks like new, and shows no indications of falling apart. They're still pretty common down here in the swamps even though they've been out of production for over 25 years. Of course that means that mine is only 56 years old, and it could totally disintegrate anytime in the next 19 years before it's 75th birthday.

AR-15's (the original "plastic wonder Mattel toy") have been available to civilians since 1963, oldest one I own just turned 50. It still looks and shoots just like it's brothers that are only a couple of months old. But maybe it's a ticking time bomb!

Glock 17's went into service in 1982. The sheriff's department here still has Gen1 G17's that are over 30 years old (purchased in 1984), have tens of thousands of rounds through them, and look and perform like new. Of course, there's no telling what the next 19 years will bring to meet the 50 year mark, although I don't expect any difference in their performance than that from the previous 31 years.

I'd be very surprised if there's any mass failures of the plastic wonders in our lifetimes, given how little actual use most guns will see.

My experience has been that neglect and rust is what kills most guns. I believe that the plastic wonders, which generally incorporate stainless steel internals and have some kind of integral protection on their steel components (Tennifer, etc) will be around MUCH longer than the majority of their steel contemporaries. I saw LOTS of weather damaged guns after Hurricane Katrina. As a general rule, the plastic wonders (and stainless guns) we disassembled, cleaned, oiled, and sent back out. In most cases, the blued steel stuff was a lump of rust that couldn't even be taken apart.

 

[old lady new shooter]

Yes it will. It's very common to see stainless guns pitted from rust.



Here's as couple of pics of a .44 Mag Ruger Redhawk that was caught in the rain several years ago. The owner very carefully wiped down the outside but never disassembled it to dry or lube the internals. Only indication of anything wrong was a slightly gritty feeling action which the owner (and everyone else who shot it in the last few years) never noticed. Probably the only reason that I noticed it was because we were shooting it side by side with my .357 Redhawk and it wasn't quite as smooth. However, it cleaned up very nicely with only minor pitting where it couldn't be seen.

Eeek, I haven't even started learning about how to take care of a gun (All you guys here who grew up with guns, try to imagine being already old and having to learn everything from scratch!), I figured that would be more cut-and-dried than developing a gun owner mindset and learning how to shoot properly, but I was thinking to get a 686 Plus (probably 6"), which is stainless steel (official description "satin stainless") and thought an added benefit would be that stainless steel would be easy to keep nice... what do I have to do so it doesn't end up looking like those photos?

 

[45_auto]

Just wiping down on the outside will keep a 686 (or any other stainless revolver) working and looking like new for the lifetime of the vast majority of owners. Based on your user name, I'm assuming that you're not going to be low crawling in the mud and rain anytime soon!

Try not to let it get soaking wet so water gets inside it. If it does, no big deal, have someone that knows what they're doing remove the cylinder and sideplate and clean/lube the internals within the next few weeks. Or learn to do it yourself, lots of good books out there. Don't trust the internet for ANYTHING until you have done some basic research and specifically know what you're looking for. Lots of yahoos with NO background or knowledge out there that are free to post whatever crosses their mind.

It wouldn't be a bad idea to have it disassembled and cleaned every couple of thousand rounds or every 10 years or so, whichever comes first. Do that and your grandkid's grandkids will be passing it down to their kids!

 

[old lady new shooter]

Just wiping down on the outside will keep a 686 (or any other stainless revolver) working and looking like new for the lifetime of the vast majority of owners. Based on your user name, I'm assuming that you're not going to be low crawling in the mud and rain anytime soon!

Try not to let it get soaking wet so water gets inside it. If it does, no big deal, have someone that knows what they're doing remove the cylinder and sideplate and clean/lube the internals within the next few weeks. Or learn to do it yourself, lots of good books out there. Don't trust the internet for ANYTHING until you have done some basic research and specifically know what you're looking for. Lots of yahoos with NO background or knowledge out there that are free to post whatever crosses their mind.

It wouldn't be a bad idea to have it disassembled and cleaned every couple of thousand rounds or every 10 years or so, whichever comes first. Do that and your grandkid's grandkids will be passing it down to their kids!

LOL, barring the zombie apocalypse people keep mentioning, no crawling in mud or rain. I probably won't even go to the range if it's raining as long as we don't have concealed carry here because until we get it I'd only ever be using it inside my house, so no need to practice in the rain.

I was under the impression I have to clean it after every time I use it, is this correct? Does that mean the every-2000-round take-the-whole-thing-apart cleaning you are talking about is a different process? Really like the idea of letting a professional do that, thanks for the idea. So if this is the case, for the presumably less extensive cleaning I have to do after each use can I get instructions directly from Smith & Wesson to address the internet-reliability issue?

 

[Malamute]

It isnt strictly required to clean them every time they are used. If you know what to look for to keep unburnt powder or crud from accumulating under the extractor star, and chamber fouling from causing cases to stick, uncleaned guns generally just keep perking along pretty well. Yes, its nice to stay ahead of any real problems, but the "clean them every time you use them" is partly holdover from military use and from the days of corrosive primers.

Good idea to clean them, sure. Not entirely critical for basic functioning to clean them every time.

 

[45_auto]

There are different levels of cleaning. More guns are ruined by over-zealous cleaning, lost parts, and improper re-assembly than are ever worn out by shooting.

If you've shot 50 rounds and are going to shoot it another 50 the next day? Wipe it down with a soft cloth and put it away.

If you're taking a week long combat pistol class shooting 200 or 300 rounds per day? Clean it per the S&W manual every evening after class.

If you shoot a box through it once a month? Go here, download the S&W revolver manual, and follow the cleaning instructions on page 31. Should take you about 10 minutes. Basically run a bore brush through the barrel and chambers, run a cloth patch through the barrel and chambers, then wipe it down. Should take you about 10 minutes. It will last forever. Maybe every 5 or 10 years have a qualified gunsmith do a complete disassembly/clean/lube if it's your primary self-defense weapon and you're a believer in the belt and suspenders approach. Make sure you test-fire it after re-assembly before you trust your life to it.

If you drop it in a mud puddle or get caught in a sand storm for a couple of hours while shooting? Take it to a gunsmith and have it completely cleaned.

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/...4_750001_750051_757821_-1_757814_757812_image

NOTE: A basic firearm cleaning kit should include: a brass bore
brush and a cleaning jag of appropriate size for the bore being
cleaned, high-quality gun cleaning solvent and gun oil/lubricant,
cotton cleaning patches and a cleaning rod that is long enough
to push the brush and jag completely through the barrel.

• Remove excessive firing residue from the bore and cylinder
using a properly fitted brass brush dipped in gun cleaning solvent.
Finish the bore cleaning process by running a dry cotton
cloth patch through the bore and cylinder charging holes to
remove residue and solvent.

• Clean the exterior of the firearm using a non-abrasive cleaning
cloth.

• After cleaning, lightly coat the metal parts, internal and external
with a high quality gun oil.

• Clean the exterior of the firearm using a non-abrasive cleaning
cloth.

• After cleaning, lightly coat the metal parts, internal and external
with a high quality gun oil.

Whenever your firearm has been exposed to sand, dust, extreme
humidity, water or other adverse conditions, it must be cleaned
and lubricated.

 

[Malamute]

^ ^ Good post

 

[old lady new shooter]

There are different levels of cleaning. More guns are ruined by over-zealous cleaning, lost parts, and improper re-assembly than are ever worn out by shooting.

If you've shot 50 rounds and are going to shoot it another 50 the next day? Wipe it down with a soft cloth and put it away.

If you're taking a week long combat pistol class shooting 200 or 300 rounds per day? Clean it per the S&W manual every evening after class.

If you shoot a box through it once a month? Go here, download the S&W revolver manual, and follow the cleaning instructions on page 31. Should take you about 10 minutes. Basically run a bore brush through the barrel and chambers, run a cloth patch through the barrel and chambers, then wipe it down. Should take you about 10 minutes. It will last forever. Maybe every 5 or 10 years have a qualified gunsmith do a complete disassembly/clean/lube if it's your primary self-defense weapon and you're a believer in the belt and suspenders approach. Make sure you test-fire it after re-assembly before you trust your life to it.

If you drop it in a mud puddle or get caught in a sand storm for a couple of hours while shooting? Take it to a gunsmith and have it completely cleaned.

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/...4_750001_750051_757821_-1_757814_757812_image

Wow, thank you so much!!!

I'm thinking to go to the range once a week when I first get it, then after I get to a minimally acceptable level of competence probably dial back to less frequently... Of course the weasel words there are "minimally acceptable level of competence"...

 

[drband]

You'll "want" to go to the range every week once you get in the routine! Shooting a nice S&W revolver is fun!

 

[olafhardtB]

old vs new

They are pretty much all guns to me. I have noticed the lack of plastic stocks dessigned for iron sight usage. The "lux" CZ's are an exception. I have thought about a synthetic full manlicher schwienrucken truck gun.

 

[bearcreek]

Interesting choice of thread title. I would argue that generally speaking, most popular modern designs like striker fired "plastic" pistols and AR's are far simpler than many older designs. Take a disassembled AR and 1873 Winchester and have a mechanically inclined person with no gun experience try to assemble each one to an operational state. You'll see real quick which one is "simpler".

 

[jmr40]

Most guys don't realize that walnut and blue didn't become the preferred choice years ago because they looked good. It was chosen for exactly the same reasons plastic and matte finished metal is the preferred choice today. At the time they were the cheapest, easiest to manufacture options available that were adequate. There have always been better options, and better looking options. These were the cheapest. I'm sure there were some interesting campfire discussions 200 years ago about the crappy walnut being used on guns of the day just as some complain about plastic today.

I enjoy a pretty gun as much as the next guy, but can't see the point in getting all teary eyed over a very common looking stick of wood wrapped around 95% of the wood stocked rifles/shotguns made in the last 50-60 years. I burn wood by the truck load to heat my house every year that looks as good or better than what is on most guns.

All of my lever action rifles are in walnut. I just haven't found anything in plastic that works well with them. But I haven't hunted with a wood stocked bolt action since I bought a Brown Precision stock in 1983. The better synthetics certainly don't look any worse than common wood, and are far more functional. Even the high end synthetics cost less than a really nice piece of wood.

 

[old lady new shooter]

You'll "want" to go to the range every week once you get in the routine! Shooting a nice S&W revolver is fun!

<g>

 

[SSN Vet]

Though these type of discussions quickly degenerate into mud slinging over personal preferences, I do think it's worth pointing out that the OPs point about "simplicity" in design is actually a well established "best practice". That is to say, when looking at different design options to accomplish the same task, the one that achieves that task and is the most simple, is usually considered to be the best option.

That said, I'm not sure I'd agree that the mechanism used in a 1911 or a BHP is really all that simple. Especially when compared to the striker fired, poly framed "wonder 9s".

Advances in plastic polymers and molding technologies are industrial revolutions that certainly have, imo, a legitimate place in the world of firearms development.

 

[lysanderxiii]

Most guys don't realize that walnut and blue didn't become the preferred choice years ago because they looked good. It was chosen for exactly the same reasons plastic and matte finished metal is the preferred choice today. At the time they were the cheapest, easiest to manufacture options available that were adequate. There have always been better options, and better looking options. These were the cheapest. I'm sure there were some interesting campfire discussions 200 years ago about the crappy walnut being used on guns of the day just as some complain about plastic today.

I enjoy a pretty gun as much as the next guy, but can't see the point in getting all teary eyed over a very common looking stick of wood wrapped around 95% of the wood stocked rifles/shotguns made in the last 50-60 years. I burn wood by the truck load to heat my house every year that looks as good or better than what is on most guns.

All of my lever action rifles are in walnut. I just haven't found anything in plastic that works well with them. But I haven't hunted with a wood stocked bolt action since I bought a Brown Precision stock in 1983. The better synthetics certainly don't look any worse than common wood, and are far more functional. Even the high end synthetics cost less than a really nice piece of wood.

Walnut and Maple were chosen because they are the best choice of wool for stocking firearms. Pine would have been much cheaper but been inferior....

Same reason they use fiber reinforced polymer, it is the best polymer for the application. Polymer does have advantages over wood, it doesn't react to moisture.

 

[Paul7]

I like the modern plastic stuff for hunting and self defense, but IMHO no Ruger compares to a Colt revolver, especially the pre-war ones.

 

[spearpoint]

Simplicity?

Pull the side plate from a classic D frame Colt, and take a good, close look at that little bump on that long curved lever-like thing...

Those old Colt revolvers have more in common with an AR-pattern rifle than they do with the M1 carbine in terms of simplicity.