Single Action...Double Action Question

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Covey Leader

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Can someone please explain SA/DA in the simplest form? I always thought that SA meant that you can cock the hammer each time and fire (single action) or continue to pull the full trigger load (double action). The pistols like the XD's and Glocks have me confused because the hammer is hidden?

I dont know if im overthinking things or what. I have a current pistol permit and im gonna be buying soon. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks
 
Even ignoring combinations of single and double actions (double-single), there are three basic kinds of actions for semiauto pistols. (1) Single action, in which pulling the trigger fires the pistol and does nothing else. (2) Double action, in which pulling the trigger cocks the pistol and then fires it. (3) the kind of action you get with Glocks and the Ruger LCP, just to take two pistols that I'm familiar with: Pulling the trigger completes the cocking action (of a striker (Glock) or hammer (LCP) ), but the striker or hammer must first have been partially cocked, which happens when the slide is racked either by hand or by the previous shot). There is no standard name for this third kind of action. Glock calls it "safe action," which is just marketing. Ruger says the LCP is "double action," which it isn't. Some people call it "striker fired," but that's not right because some of these guns (like the LCP) have a hammer.

This third kind of action resembles double action mechanically, in the sense that the trigger pull does two things, unlike a single action trigger pull, which only releases a cocked hammer. Functionally, from the user's point of view, this third kind of action resembles single action, because the gun won't fire unless the user first does something to start the cocking process (typically, racking the slide). So it doesn't have second-strike capability: if you pull the trigger and it doesn't go bang, nothing happens if you pull the trigger again (not even a click, except in the movies)

It may be worth noting that even a double-action autoloader will not do what a double-action revolver will do after a misfire: go on to the next cartridge and fire that one. We got the terms "single action" and "double action" from revolver people, because they were here first; they don't fit all that well with autoloaders. Pulling the trigger of a double action revolver really does three things, not just two: moves the cylinder, cocks the revolver, releases the trigger. You'd think they'd have called it "triple action."
 
Thanks Guys....i think i had it all along. i was just thinking about it too much. I've had two pistols that were SA/DA.

Is the only purpose of a DA only pistol so that each trigger pull is deliberate for law enforcement?
 
it seems like you are confusing the DA/SA...since the first shot is DA and seceding shots SA...and the DAO where all shots are DA, with the hammer returning to the down position after each shot.

the DAO has several purposes
1. ease transition of LEO from the DA revolver
2. making each trigger pull the same (consistent)
3. avoid the tendency to flinch with a SA trigger

there are many people, not just LE, who prefer the DAO triggers (like the Sig DAK or H&K LEM) because it actually shoots more accurately for them
 
Covey leader-

Yes. DAOs are designed and marketed for the LE guys. They have a flush hammer with no spur that lies flat. Most of us kind of roll our eyes at the idea, it's like saying, "You shouldn't put your finger on the trigger until you are ready to fire, but just in case, we are going to give a really heavy trigger because we don't really trust you, and we need to give you an extra six pounds to make you think twice."
 
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There is no standard name for this third kind of action.
Pre-set Double Action Only.
Well, that's a name. We'll see if it becomes standard. It gets a grand total of three Google hits, so it seems safe to say that it is not standard yet. ("Double action only" gets 4.4 million Google hits.)
 
Well, not all DAO is created equal, and not all who carry DAO are those forced to do so by LE admins. There is a special DAO, in the form of the SIG DAK, which has two reset positions. If the trigger is allowed to reset fully, revolver-style, the pull is as long as the standard SIG DA pull, but 6.5 to 7.5 pounds. If the trigger is only allowed to reset to an intermediate point, the resulting shorter trigger stroke is about 8.5 pounds.

I am an LEO guy who generally prefers DAK SIGs, even though DA/SA was standard at my PD at the time I bought my P229R DAK, in 2004. (We buy our own duty weapons.) I was a rebel in that regard, and had to qual with my SIG DAK only when certain, more enlightened range supervisors were on duty, and avoid certain others, who would have refused to let me qual with DAK. In 2007, the rules were changed to allow DAK as an option. Who uses DAK at my PD? It is certain of the serious guys who run narcotics raids, and train to a higher standard than the patrol guys. And, me, a patrolman who is serious about staying alive.

In my opinion, the LE admins who mandate DAO are ironically the ones who do not understand DA shooting. (In other words, they are doing it wrong.) Those misguided admins think DA is slower than SA, like some kind of speed governor. DA shooting is not slower than SA, unless one waits for the perfect sight picture, and only then starts the DA pull. That may work for fundamental marksmanship training, for beginners, and, let's face it, most LEOs stay at the beginner level. My DA pull starts earlier than that; let's just say my shots break at about the point where a beginner is just starting his trigger pull. (Unless, of course, I am holding someone at gunpoint, instead of engaging in a gunfight.)

FWIW, I did not choose the DAK out of ignorance. I could still be carrying "grandfathered" 1911 pistols for duty use, if I wanted. I like DA enough that I let my 1911s lapse in 2002. I started policin' in 1984 with then-mandated DA sixguns. I have also carried DA/SA pistols, in the 1990s, and have a couple of DA/SA P229s now. All three of these trigger systems work, if one trains to use them. The new systems, such as Glock's "safe action," work, too, though Glocks don't fit my hands, so I stopped trying to master that system; it was fighting Mother Nature. (I didn't need just a grip reduction, but would need material added under the trigger guard and tang.)
 
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you are confusing striker fired with hammer fired

you know, it bothers me when people don't count striker fired pistols as being either single action or double action. a glock is double action; a XD is single action.
 
you know, it bothers me when people don't count striker fired pistols as being either single action or double action. a glock is double action; a XD is single action.
Part of this is true: whether a pistol has a striker or a hammer has nothing to do with whether it is single action, double action, or something else, so "striker-fired action" makes no sense. The Glock and the LCP have the same kind of action, although one has a striker and the other has a hammer.

You can call a Glock's action "double" if you want to (that's what Ruger says the LCP has), but it's misleading because it's not the same kind of action that traditional double-action pistols have and it doesn't function the same way, as shown by its lack of second-strike capability. The problem here is people's insistence on classifying all actions as either single or double. There aren't two kinds of actions, there are three (plus combinations).
 
Naw, both glock and XD's are 1 1/2 action, glock being closer to 2, and XD to one, what happens is that the glock has to tension the striker spring more than the XD to fire (think KT type hammer) both lack second strike of a true DA
 
to avoid the argument of the validity of the need for 2nd strike capability, i would say that the Glock trigger does not have the capability to cock it's striker to fire unless it is first cocked by manually cycling the action...unlike a more conventionally defined DA trigger which takes it's hammer/striker from completely down to full cock before releasing
 
both tension the FP with trigger pull ( it makes safer... somehow) but require the slide to cycle to reset the trigger, so neither are true one or the other, and both, as you point out can be described any way they want.
 
No matter what anyone may claim both the XD and S&W M&P are 100% SINGLE ACTION.

excuse my laziness for not looking it up myself, but does that mean that the XD and M&P compete in IDPA's ESP class rather than against the Glock in SSP?
 
You should shoot many different types, and find out which you prefer. I find the more pistols I shoot the more I like the 1911's trigger.


I find when I shoot DA/SA pistols, I prefer to cock the hammer back and shoot them single. I don't like that heavy initial pull.
 
And there are single action revolvers that are called trigger cockers, in which pulling the trigger just cocks the hammer; a second step is needed to fire the gun. Most of those have a switch that will also allow the cocked hammer to be released when the trigger reaches its most rearward point, thus becoming a sort of DA.

Jim
 
Of late, even Springfield Armory has backed off on the double action definition of the XD, though it still appears in their ads. In a position paper sent to the IDPA Board of Directors and dated May 13, 2002, Springfield's Dennis Reese wrote, "The XD pistol is neither a true single action, nor a true double action pistol. As the Clock pistol has been described as 'safe action,' the Springfield XD pistol has an Ultra Safety Assurance (USA) action trigger system. Enclosed please find a report prepared by Tioga Engineering on this issue. Please note that neither Glock, nor we, claim that the trigger is either single or double action."

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_160_26/ai_92585765/pg_3/

http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbull...071-springfield-xds-single-double-action.html

# Manufacturer Number: XD 9801SP06
# Size: Sub-Compact
# Action: Double Action Only
# Caliber: 9MM
# Capacity: 10 Round
# Barrel Length: 3 Inch
http://www.xdpistols.com/category/7-Springfield_Armory_XD_9MM_Pistols.aspx

Springfield calls it USA, Ultra safe action, so the point being, sometimes DA, SA, aren't exactly accurate.

So, pardon me for pointing out that some are truly neither under a strict definition.
 
Does it really matter what it's called as long as it goes boom after you pull the trigger? I'd consider a lot of pistols single action, but I don't make the rules. I think what counts more is how the trigger performs rather than what it's called.

The type of action only matters some of the time. For glocks, springfields, Kahrs, and other striker fired pistols it doesn't really matter what you call the trigger action. You can only fire it one way with one trigger pull weight.
 
XD is in ESP in IDPA because it is a single action. Springer put up a valiant attempt to have it in SSP, but failed. We actually had one guy quit IDPA because he was so mad about being in ESP. He got no sympathy from me. I'm in CDP.
 
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