Single action question - empty chamber

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Except that won't work with a.45 Colt chambered Colt SAA.

There isn't enough rim clearance to keep the cylinder from being rotated with just a little pressure.

Then you have the firing pin dragging over a live primer.

As for lever actions?

The trigger sear and hammer notch are about 4 time bigger, wider, & stronger then they are on a SAA.

rc
 
Except that won't work with a.45 Colt chambered Colt SAA.

There isn't enough rim clearance to keep the cylinder from being rotated with just a little pressure.

Then you have the firing pin dragging over a live primer.

As for lever actions?

The trigger sear and hammer notch are about 4 time bigger, wider, & stronger then they are on a SAA.
Yep, yep, yep and yep.
 
Except that won't work with a.45 Colt chambered Colt SAA.

There isn't enough rim clearance to keep the cylinder from being rotated with just a little pressure.

Then you have the firing pin dragging over a live primer.

As for lever actions?

The trigger sear and hammer notch are about 4 time bigger, wider, & stronger then they are on a SAA.

rc

Yup, and I have the photos to prove it. This technique will work with the smaller rim diameter of a 357 Mag or a 38 Special, but it does not work with large rims like 45 Colt or 44-40.

As far as the rifle is concerned, it really is far less likely that a dropped gun will land on its hammer. The long barrel and long buttstock will almost guarantee the rifle bottoms out on them. You would have to try pretty hard to get a rifle to land on the hammer spur. Not saying it is impossible, just very unlikely.
 
We've really hashed this one to death before and it boils down to personal choice. If you're prone to falling, dropping firearms, or you're generally clumsy, by all means carry them with the hammer over an empty cylinder. If not, half-cock, hammer safety or whatever you choose to call it will be fine. Either way, I certainly won't begrudge anyone for their choice!

As I've pointed out here before, folks tend to agonize over subjects such as the safety of carrying a revolver with all six cylinders loaded, then hop in to a 4000+ lb. automobile, and run it down a crowded road at 75 mph while talking on the phone, texting, fiddling with their GPS, or after they've had a couple of beers, just to name a few. In reality many, many things we do day to day are far more likely to get you injured or killed.

On a side note, two of my Uberti's are equipped with this:

Ubertihammer_zps963a9dcf.jpg

This is a hammer block safety that is actuated by a plunger when the hammer is lowered into the "At Rest" or "Transport" position. When the hammer is in this position the block pivots upwards and blocks the hammer from lowering into the "fire" position.

During last years deer season I carried my .44 Special with the hammer lowered so it rested between the rims of two cartridges. No problems, then it occurred to me the safety notch is there for a reason and I'm going to use it. So since then I've been carrying with all six cylinders loaded and the hammer in the first notch. I'll let the forum know if I happen to shoot a hole in my leg. :D

35W
 
It is absolutely the individual's choice. However, one does not have to be "prone" to accidents to have one. People die in fatal car crashes every day who never had a crash before in their life. "It" happens and "it" can happen to anyone. Personally, I don't think it's worth the risk for that one extra shot. Bottom line is that "it" happened to enough people for Ruger to completely redesign their single action lockwork. People who did not lower the hammer down on an empty chamber and paid for it.
 
It is absolutely the individual's choice. However, one does not have to be "prone" to accidents to have one. People die in fatal car crashes every day who never had a crash before in their life. "It" happens and "it" can happen to anyone. Personally, I don't think it's worth the risk for that one extra shot. Bottom line is that "it" happened to enough people for Ruger to completely redesign their single action lockwork. People who did not lower the hammer down on an empty chamber and paid for it.

You are correct. One doesn't have to be accident prone to choose the empty chamber option. I misspoke.

And for those so equipped...good. For those that aren't...

Well...

Roll the dice, I guess.

Hmm...I never thought of being safe with a firearm as a roll of the dice, as though firearms users have no control over being safe. I'll always teach and was taught at a young age that safety, regardless of the environment, is a conscious, on going decision and thought process.

35W
 
I always load and shoot all six when I'm at the range. If I were to carry the gun holstered for any reason, it would be five. But I don't foresee myself ever wearing a loaded SA revolver, I only use mine for ruining paper targets, so I go with a full cylinder.
 
Hmm...I never thought of being safe with a firearm as a roll of the dice, as though firearms users have no control over being safe.

Well, make up your mind. First, you chide us over carrying a SAA with five rounds, citing lever-action rifles...then you agree that when you don't actually have a need to keep a chambered round in a lever gun that the chamber is empty...and then when somebody agrees that it's your choice to carry a SAA on the quarter cock with a live round under the hammer if you want to take that chance aka "Roll the Dice"...you back up and say that you always teach safety first.


So...which is it? You can't have it both ways.

It's been pretty much accepted for 140 years that carrying a true SAA with an empty chamber under the hammer is the safest way to do it. i.e. There was a very good reason that Ruger went to the transfer bar system over 40 years ago.

If you want to go against conventional wisdom and carry it with six, that's your choice. Roll the dice.

If I'm on the range, and intend to immediately step to the line with the gun, I'll load 6. If the gun is going into a holster or is stored loaded...like the Cimarron Thunderer on top of my refrigerator...there's gonna be an empty chamber. That's my choice.
 
That so-called "safety notch" isn't.
You drop your gun on its hammer with it on that first notch behind a loaded chamber, you can count on it firing.
And enough Colt SAs HAVE landed just that way & fired to make it a legitimate concern.
Venturino has written about being present when one did, and a man died.

The metal engagement between the trigger tip & hammer notch is quite thin there, one or the other will break.

It is NOT safe, it IS very foolish.

Range time is a different matter, carry with the hammer behind a loaded chamber is dangerous.
As Tuner says- this has been common knowledge for 140 years.
Denis
 
During last years deer season I carried my .44 Special with the hammer lowered so it rested between the rims of two cartridges. No problems, then it occurred to me the safety notch is there for a reason and I'm going to use it. So since then I've been carrying with all six cylinders loaded and the hammer in the first notch. I'll let the forum know if I happen to shoot a hole in my leg.

As has been stated many times, the so called 'safety notch' on the hammer of a traditional single action revolver is not very strong. The metal of the notch and the sear are very thin. Drop the gun on the hammer spur with a round under the chamber and something will break. This has been demonstrated over and over again. That is why a single action is not safe with six beans in the wheel. That is why Ruger developed his transfer bar system. He got tired of lawsuits from gun owners who just did not understand how to be safe with a single action revolver.

You have been warned, do as you please.
 
Well, make up your mind. First, you chide us over carrying a SAA with five rounds, citing lever-action rifles...then you agree that when you don't actually have a need to keep a chambered round in a lever gun that the chamber is empty...and then when somebody agrees that it's your choice to carry a SAA on the quarter cock with a live round under the hammer if you want to take that chance aka "Roll the Dice"...you back up and say that you always teach safety first.


So...which is it? You can't have it both ways.

Like I said in a previous post, I mis-spoke, I shouldn't have chided those who choose to carry on an empty chamber. That was wrong of me.

Now pay attention:

Example: When I go to the pasture to checking calving heifers which are prone to be preyed upon by coyotes, which I've been doing now for a couple of weeks, I grab the '92 Rossi out of the rack to take with me. It's chamber is empty because I don't need it loaded in the house. As soon as I clear the house and am outside I lever a round in the chamber and lower the hammer to the half-cock, safety position...whatever you choose to call it. The rifle stays in that condition as long as I'm outside checking cattle, etc. (Those who carry single action semi-autos such as a 1911 will recognize this as being closely akin to "Condition Two"...hint, hint) When I'm finished and go back in the house, I remove the cartridge from the chamber and return it to the magazine. Get it now? I don't feel I need a round in the chamber in the house, but do when I'm outside.Ditto when I'm hunting. When the rifle is in my hands, it's loaded and the hammer on the safety notch.

On the other hand, my wife and I keep a pair of Uberti .357's handy for home defense, one for she and one for I. They're both loaded with six and on the safety notch as that's a choice we made together.

Now stay with me here....

My reference to teaching safety was in regards to handling firearms safely, i.e.- keeping them strapped securely in a holster, not dropping them, etc. rather than rely solely on transfer bars and empty chambers.


It's been pretty much accepted for 140 years that carrying a true SAA with an empty chamber under the hammer is the safest way to do it. i.e. There was a very good reason that Ruger went to the transfer bar system over 40 years ago.

Then why do/did manufacturers such as Colt, USFA, Uberti, et al forego the use of transfer bars? Heck, if it was that big of a deal, these manufacturers would bore the cylinders of their revolvers with five chambers and one dummy chamber on which the hammer could be lowered.

If you want to go against conventional wisdom and carry it with six, that's your choice. Roll the dice.

If I'm on the range, and intend to immediately step to the line with the gun, I'll load 6. If the gun is going into a holster or is stored loaded...like the Cimarron Thunderer on top of my refrigerator...there's gonna be an empty chamber. That's my choice.

How I load and carry firearms is a choice, just as handling and carrying them safely is. My day job is an extremely safety sensitive one and we're taught that safety is not an accident, or as you put it, a roll of the dice. Rather it's a conscious, day to day choice. It's been my experience over 40 or so years of carrying and handling firearms that done so with safety at the front of the thought process makes accidents far, far less likely. And so far in those 40 or so years of competitive shooting, tromping through the woods in search of game, climbing up and down mountains and even carrying firearms horseback, I've never come close to dropping a firearm or having any mishap that could cause an AD.

35W
 
Comparing the SAA & clones to a levergun is invalid, and you're making a serious mistake in judgment in carrying a SAA or clone with 6 on that notch.
But, you're not interested in either mechanics or history, so, as DJ said- you've been warned.

All those who died accidentally carrying that way over nearly a century & a half said pretty much the same thing: "I've never dropped my gun & don't plan to", and that was entirely true.
Right up till the day they did & died.


My concern is no longer with you, it's with those newbies reading this who may think your choice is valid, when it isn't.
History speaks against you.
Loudly & lethally.
Denis
 
Comparing the SAA & clones to a levergun is invalid, and you're making a serious mistake in judgment in carrying a SAA or clone with 6 on that notch.
But, you're not interested in either mechanics or history, so, as DJ said- you've been warned.

All those who died accidentally carrying that way over nearly a century & a half said pretty much the same thing: "I've never dropped my gun & don't plan to", and that was entirely true.
Right up till the day they did & died.


My concern is no longer with you, it's with those newbies reading this who may think your choice is valid, when it isn't.
History speaks against you.
Loudly & lethally.
Denis

How is the comparison to lever guns invalid? They both use the same type of hammer notch safety principal; Uberti's, Marlins, Winchesters, Rossi's etc. Please don't tell me one has a larger sear than another, etc. because then we're going to get in to which is made of the hardest steel, which has the deepest safety notch, the angle of the sears and on and on. What about the Colt 1911 design and God only knows how many other single action semi's, still in production today, who employ the same hammer notch safety principal? Should they likewise be carried on empty chambers?

Don't be pompous and insincere, your concern was never with me to begin with, rather it is drawing attention to yourself by beating your own chest in the name of all those poor, innocent people who are new to firearms. Drama, drama, drama. :D

35W
 
The levergun half cock notch IS more robust. It is designed as a safety and is viable in that use. The half cock notch on a Colt-style sixgun is less robust, the trigger nose is so thin it's a miracle that it lasts as long as it does and it was designed to free the cylinder for loading/unloading. Not as a safety.

You'd have to try really hard to drop a levergun on its hammer. On a revolver, it's easy as pie, people have died proving it. I'm not ashamed to admit that I've dropped a loaded single action twice in my lifetime. I'm extremely careful, deliberate, take care of my guns and am not careless. It CAN happen to anyone. I'm very glad the hammer was down on an empty chamber, both times.
 
You just can't compare the two without comparing the three.

Colt SAA trigger sear
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/561040/colt-trigger-colt-single-action-army-blue

Winchester 94 trigger sear
http://www.midwestgunworks.com/page/mgwi/prod/U345100330

Marlin 336 trigger sear
http://www.wildwestguns.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/triggerhappyfinal.jpg

There is enough metal and width in either lever-action trigger or sear to make three SAA trigger sear tips.
And the screw hole through the trigger isn't drilled paper thin either.

And the hammer notches on the lever-actions and 1911's are a full 1/4" wide.
Not 1/2 that or less.

SAA trigger tips are very thin, very delicate, and very easy to break.
Lever-action triggers or sears nearly as likely to break from an impact on the hammer?

Not so anyone has noticed over the last 150 years or so.

rc
 
Whelen,
You've had the leverguns explained to you, you're apparently incapable of understanding the mechanical differences.
The first notch on a 1911 is equally NOT a safety notch & should never be depended on behind a loaded chamber.
That's caused ADs, too.

As Craig said, there's quite a bit of difference in the bearing surfaces between hammer & sear in SAAs & leverguns.
Re your earlier comment, about 15 years ago Uberti did actually turn their SAs out with a plug in one chamber so people would leave that one unloaded.
It proved too unpopular, so the plug was discontinued.

Colt's attorneys were pressuring upper management in 1993 to drop the Peacemaker because it was an "archaic" design with no safety mechanism (a Colt rep's words), and it was perceived to be a liability. Partly because of confusion among the less-informed like yourself who thought that first notch rendered 6-up carry safe.

You can rationalize all you want in your own mind, but I will repeat- History simply speaks against you. Enough people have died doing it your way to illustrate the folly of that type of carry.
Denis
 
The half-cock notches on the M92/94 rifles and the original 1911 are robust and captive. They trap the sear and render the trigger/fire control group inoperable. The quarter-cock notch on the SAA hammer is a relatively fragile affair that history has shown doesn't hold up well to impact.

And the half cock on the 1911 was a safety. Says so right there in the 1910 patents....but that's fuel for another fire.

I believe...and this is my opinion...that the "safety" position on the SAA was for those times when...as JB Books put it..."Your insides tell ya to load 6." with the assumption that the risk of being loaded short outweighed the risks of having the gun fully loaded...with the assumption that it was to be returned to safe condition once the peril had been dealt with.

If anyone chooses...the operative word being choice...to carry a SAA or faithful copy with all six holes charged and depends on the quarter-cock for safety, that's up to him. He'll be the one to bear the consequences should it go wrong.

Anyway...time to get this one back on track.

For those who load with 5 for range use, and are concerned with uneven wear...whether an actual concern or not...is to simply load a round into the empty hole when the gun is shot dry...then eject the other empties...and continue the sequence of "skip one/load four" that's been done for 140 years. We're rarely in a mad rush to reload when we're on the firing range, so time isn't really a factor here.
 
Yup

That thin little tip of the trigger fits into that notch at the 'safety cock' position. Whack it very hard and it WILL break off. Drop the gun onto a hard surface, allow a stirrup to fall onto it, all kinds of ways for it to break off. One hundred and forty years of history with the SAA has taught folks a few things. That is why any Single Action revolver imported into this country has to have a secondary safety device, like the older D Cam safety hammer in your photo, or the double notch cylinder pin on current imports. Why are they still being made this way? Tradition.

interiorpartswitharrows.jpg
 
DJ,
The Uberti 12-shot .22 I have here temporarily has both safety devices, hammer block & cylinder base pin.
Been a while since I let my last centerfire Uberti clone go, do current ones use both, or just one or the other?

I don't do much with Ubertis anymore.
Denis
 
Howdy

I don't really know. I bought a used Uberti Cattleman about 10 years ago and it had the D cam hammer. I bought another used one a few years later and it only had the double stop cylinder pin. Have not bought another in quite a few years, so I dunno how they are shipping them now.

By the way, the photo is Colt 2nd Gen parts, not Uberti parts.
 
That D cam, incidentally, was an attempt by Uberti to salvage a run of frames with a mis-located hole.
I had one a while back, too.
Denis
 
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