Single action question - empty chamber

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What many of you seem to be missing is that the half cock was a safety - until people started discovering that it didn't work well enough and folks were getting killed because a 3 lbs gun will hit rocky ground hard enough to break something and drive the hammer into the primer.

Do you have any documentation of this happening? Not that it's not possible. Just that if it had happened enough to be a problem, it would be pretty common knowledge.

Again...in some of Browning's hammer guns...the half cock was the only safety.

Now, don't get me wrong. I'm all for bein' safe...but this Chicken Little mentality is pretty unnecessary.

The point is that the half cock was...by design and intent...a manual safety, and before Jeff Cooper had us all carrying cocked and locked...most people who carried the big Colt with a hot chamber either carried it hammer down or at half cock.

I guess now we can wait for Mr. Little to show up, flapping his wings and running around squawking about how dangerous it is to de-cock a 1911.

The point was purely technical...not tactical. The gun was designed to carry in one of several ways, depending on the desires and needs of the end user. Can we carry it cocked and locked? Yes. Of course. Can we carry it hammer down on a loaded chamber? Yes. Of course. Can we carry it at half cock? Yes. Of course. As long as we bear in mind that a loaded gun can never be completely safe, and proceed accordingly.

Is gun. Gun not safe.
 
)The disconnector, which JMB also called a "Safety piece", is an internal safety that prevents out of battery firing.

That's not how the disconnect functions. While it does prevent firing when the slide is backed up .050 inch...the "danger" if it does fire at that position is neither here nor there because even at twice that distance, the upper lugs are still vertically engaged. The slide and barrel can't separate and the breech can't open. It's a non starter.

The 1911 can't be fired by pulling the trigger far enough out of battery to blow up. It's mechanically impossible. I'll leave you to figure that out.
 
All gun safeties are located between the ears. As mentioned, they are guns, and loaded guns are not safe. Physical safeties can only do so much.

Choose how you wish to carry the gun of your choice and please realize any limitations it has. Your comfort level is important here.

I have carried a 1911 chamber empty, and I have carried a 1911 cocked & locked. I have never carried it with the hammer resting in the "half cock" safety because I feel that is slow to get going. If I want to be ready for a speedy use, I go C&L. If not so much, nothing in the chamber. I have complete faith in the half notch safety holding if I were to drop the gun, but not as much in me manipulating it during an adrenaline dump. I am more comfortable using the thumb safety. Some people are not, and that is OK too. Some people do not trust the thumb safety as much as the half notch safety, and I understand that. My choice.

I do not have any revolvers without transfer bars, and do not leave a chamber empty. If I did, I probably would.
 
Even Marlin in their manuals for their lever actions warn against relying on the half-cock

Yet, that's precisely what the half cock is for on the older, pre-rebounding hammer lever guns. Not as a safety per se...but rather as a temporary "safer" position for keeping the rifle at the ready without having the hammer at full cock, a trigger tickle away from bang. Think about it. If a Boone and Crockett buck steps back into the treeline before you get a clean shot...what're ya gonna do...leave the rifle cocked, or lower it to half cock to see if he comes back?

The original half cock notches on the Marlins and Winchesters were captive...just like on the 1911 and the High Power. In that position, the hammer and sear were interlocked and disabled. That's a safety.

Note also that, in this age of litigation, many owners' manuals caution us to keep the gun empty until actually ready to fire it.

And to sway it back toward the original topic...while the quarter cock on the 1873 SAA was never meant to be a constant carry position...it can be used for a short-term "safer" option when...as J.B. Books noted...Your insides tell ya to load six.

Safety with a loaded gun is all relative anyway. Short of keeping it unloaded, there is no absolute safety. There is just safer than this...or less safe than that. Is gun. Gun not safe.
 
What many of you seem to be missing is that the half cock was a safety - until people started discovering that it didn't work well enough and folks were getting killed because a 3 lbs gun will hit rocky ground hard enough to break something and drive the hammer into the primer. So the five shot work around evolved. For rifles, with larger sears and hammers shielded by the stocks, the half cock worked better. And when the first external hammer autos came around, the same problem popped up again, but without the workaround of loading down one round.

Wrong. "Half-cock" IS a safety, but it's not there for a CARRY safety. The "safety position" was the intended carry position. Half cock is there to allow safe loading and unloading of the pistol while not allowing the hammer to fall in the process, which could damage the user and/or the gun, should a loaded cylinder be under the hammer at the time. The user, obviously due to the unintended discharge, and the gun because the cylinder is not in a locked position ensuring the proper alignment of the cylinder with the barrel.

What modern folks forget is that when you hand a cowboy a Mauser 1896 with a full length firing pin, he doesn't look for the safety, but lowers the hammer. JMB was aware of this, and the Army cavalry preferred to carry hammer down like they carried their revolvers, rather than safety on a hammerless pistol like the Luger and other Browning designs. So JMB came up with three innovations to make hammer down carry safer:
1. A decocking helper, built into the grip safety. (And it is a grip safety, but that part has two functions.

A technical side effect is not the same as the design intention. The fact that my passenger car can be used to pull another vehicle out of a ditch does not make it a tow truck.

And how does this feature make "hammer down carry safer"? Answer: "It doesn't".


2. The "sight safety" - essentially a manual firing pin safety that makes the hammer position unimportant.

If by "sight safety" you mean the safety lever on the side of the 1911, then hammer position is, indeed, very much important. You cannot engage this safety with the hammer down. The hammer must be in the half cock or full cock position. If you can engage the safety lever with the hammer down on a 1911, then this is not a condition known as "safe"; it's a condition known as "broken", which is usually also associated with "unsafe" when used as an adjective describing a firearm.

3. The inertial firing pin, which offers the revolutionary ability to decock full down on a loaded chamber.

Awesome. But the Colt SAA does not have this, so it's a moot point in that discussion. And while the inertial firing pin in the 1911 makes it inherently safer, is it not a safety.

Meanwhile, S&W came up with a hammer block system that solved the problem with revolvers, but wasn't applicable to the moving breaches of automatics.

The 1911 has many different types of safeties. (USN Chief ->)The disconnector, which JMB also called a "Safety piece", is an internal safety that prevents out of battery firing. It has a trigger blocking grip safety, a sear blocking manual safety, an inertial firing pin safety and a half cock safety.

So riddle me this, Batman: If the slide is out of battery on the 1911, how does the hammer fall all the way to the firing pin in the first place? The answer is: "It doesn't". The back of the slide itself will obstruct/impede the motion of the hammer.

Does this mean, then, that the slide itself is a "safety"? No, it doesn't.

The clearly stated purpose of the disconnector, in accordance with JMB's words himself, conveniently printed in black on white in the very same patent reference you cited earlier, is to prevent multiple discharges of the gun with a single trigger pull. To prevent "full auto", as it were.

Nowhere in your cited reference did I run across JBM calling the disconnector a "safety piece". Perhaps I missed that, and if so I'd certainly appreciate a citation illustrating this.


A device can be a "safety" without promising to be a carry safety or manual safety. A safety is a safety when it has a feature that prevents the gun firing when it should not.

I can fill a 1911 with epoxy and certainly render the gun "safe". But that's not what a safety is.

I can insert one of those neat little orange thingiewidgets in the breech of a gun to show it's empty and/or prevent the proper mechanical function of the gun. But that's not what a safety is.

I can remove a key component and render a 1911 "safe". That, too, is not what a safety is.

A safety is a device which is specifically intended to be used as such...to be activated and deactivated at will by the operator. Thus a component, such as an inertial firing pin, is NOT a "safety". It is an integral component that functions automatically to make the gun safer, but canot be engaged and disengaged at will.


Like the disconnector or a automatic firing pin block, the half cock serves several passive safety functions, even though it is a leftover from a failed revolver manual safety system. If misused as a manual safety it works as well as it can, but exposed hammer at half cock can never be accident proof without a firing pin block safety.

The "half cock" of the 1911 serves as a specific safety. Says so in black and white in the patent.

The "half cock" of the SAA serves as a specific safety only during loading and unloading operations. It's not intended to be a carry safety because the cylinder is free to rotate while in this position.


Today, the 1911 is a mish-mash of features that don't all make any sense for how Jeff Cooper says we have to use it. As a cocked and locked pistol, the 1911 requires no external hammer, inertial firing pin or decocking hammer/grip safety. But it has all that stuff, and a really nicely made half cock, too. But, 150 years later, we know not to use it.

Seems to me that ANY design which has survived for over a century of common place, every day use in a highly competative market does not qualify as "a mish-mash of features that don't all make any sense".

And apparently only a few people "know not to use" the very robust hammer safety position on a 1911.

Comments in blue.
 
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1911tuner said:
That's not how the disconnect functions.
The patent:
JohnMosesBrowning said:
In order to prevent the release of the hammer unless the breech is fully closed, a safety-piece is arranged between the breechbolt and the connecting-piece. The top of the safety-piece is guided in a hole in the frame adjacent to the breech-bolt and projects into a recess in the latter when the breech is fully closed
Who are you arguing with? JMB calls is a safety to prevent the hammer release on a not fully close chamber. I didn't design the gun and put this feature on it, he did.


I still can't believe you are taking a stance that a known safety problem - the lack of drop safety at half cock - is something you want to argue about. It is a historical fact that it is a problem. The Colt SAA has the same arrangement of hooked half cock cuts and narrow sear as later Colt guns, including the 1911 - but somehow Brownings guns obey different rules? Redic.

With the chamber loaded and hammer down or hammer cocked and locked, there is no impact but muzzle down that is going to set off a 1911. That pretty darn drop safe. With half cock, there is an impact that will cause the gun to fire when struck hard enough. That's why JMB invented both methods of full down carry - not because he was bored.


What's so aggravating is that your basis for this claim is from quoting this:
Browning said:
Heretofore, in pistols of this class, when the hammer was cocked and ready for firing, and it became necessary to lower the hammer to the safety position without allowing it to touch the firing pin...
Can anyone with a high school education read this correctly? You really don't have to be a patent attorney to read this passage in context.

Heretofore means "before now". Now being the time when a better decock method was offered, AND now being a gun that doesn't make it "necessary to lower the hammer... without allowing it to touch the firing pin." This is the only basis of your claim, and it is a sentence talking about other guns that came before and lack the features of the gun in the patent.

If you want to read this creatively, like you are, it also says that you can't lower the hammer onto the firing pin. But again, this isn't about the gun in the patent, but the guns made before.


Anyone who wants to post a 1905, 1911 or any other Colt hammer fired auto manual or patent that recommends leaving that pistol at half cock without a firing pin safety in place ought to post it, rather than quoting stuff that specifically says "before now" and talks about other guns.
 
Do you have any documentation of this happening? Not that it's not possible. Just that if it had happened enough to be a problem, it would be pretty common knowledge.

Finally...the $64 question, to which the answer will be "no".

Yet, that's precisely what the half cock is for on the older, pre-rebounding hammer lever guns. Not as a safety per se...but rather as a temporary "safer" position for keeping the rifle at the ready without having the hammer at full cock, a trigger tickle away from bang. Think about it. If a Boone and Crockett buck steps back into the treeline before you get a clean shot...what're ya gonna do...leave the rifle cocked, or lower it to half cock to see if he comes back?

Yes, and Colt SAA's and repros.

The original half cock notches on the Marlins and Winchesters were captive...just like on the 1911 and the High Power. In that position, the hammer and sear were interlocked and disabled. That's a safety.

Yep...precisely the same design used by Colt in their 1873's.


And to sway it back toward the original topic...while the quarter cock on the 1873 SAA was never meant to be a constant carry position...it can be used for a short-term "safer" option when...as J.B. Books noted...Your insides tell ya to load six.

My goodness I believe we just came full circle!!

35W
 
In order to prevent the release of the hammer unless the breech is fully closed, a safety-piece is arranged between the breechbolt and the connecting-piece. The top of the safety-piece is guided in a hole in the frame adjacent to the breech-bolt and projects into a recess in the latter when the breech is fully closed

A "safety-piece" is not a "safety".
 
A "safety-piece" is not a "safety"

As far as preventing a dangerous out of battery discharge, the disconnect is a non-starter. The top of the disconnect can be filed flush with the top of the frame, and the pistol still can't be fired by pulling the trigger far enough out of battery to blow it up. It can't be done.

With the slide .100 inch out of battery, the barrel lugs are still about 70% vertically engaged with the slide's lugs. Even if the gun fires...which it can't...the breech would remain locked.

With the slide .100 inch out, the hammer can't reach the firing pin.
 
And yet, the guy who's patents you like to (mis)quote, calls it a safety.


It's kind of like, heretofore, you only quote stuff when it appears to make your point.
 
And yet, the guy who's patents you like to (mis)quote, calls it a safety.


It's kind of like, heretofore, you only quote stuff when it appears to make your point.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

JMB does not call it a "safety". He calls it a "safety-piece". You even quoted this.

Big difference. If it's a "safety", then show me how the user engages and disengages this "safety".
 
And yet, the guy who's patents you like to (mis)quote, calls it a safety.

Misquote?

I didn't quote anybody. I put the patent up for everybody to see.

Didn't you read it?

Go back and read it, starting with line 8.

"Heretofore, in pistols of this class, when the hammer was cocked ready for firing, and it became necessary to lower the hammer to the safety position without touching the firing pin..."

He didn't say "Lower the hammer to half cock."

He didn't say "Lower the hammer to the safe position."

He said "Lower the hammer to the safety position."

I dunno. Seems pretty clear to me.
 
Chief,

You don't seem to know the difference between a "safety" and a "manual safety". Whether you like it or not, a firing pin block safety is also a safety, even though it is automatic.

And you are right that a part of a safety is not a safety. A safety lever is not a safety all on its own. But claiming that the disconnector is not a safety system when JMB calls it that defies reason.


Tuner,

I already said that the half cock WAS a safety position. Heretofore, which means "up til now", it was all there was on certain guns. That is different than saying that it is the preferred safety position for a gun designed with a special firing pin safety system.
 
Re: Sight Safety.

Maybe someone has invented some wacky meaning, but the only sight safety I know of was a Browning invention and was used on some early Colt auto pistols. Essentially, the rear sight was pivoted and could be raised or lowered manually. When it was pushed down, an internal projection blocked the firing pin and the view through the sight was also blocked, so the user knew the safety was on.

As usual with safety devices other than a half-cock, Browning opposed the idea and devised it only because Colt demanded it. On later guns, the sight safety was discontinued and only the half cock was employed until the Army demanded a manual safety for what ultimately became the Model 1911.

Jim
 
I own a MK IV Series 70 and Pg. 16 of the manual clearly states the purpose of the half-cock notch (notice, it's not referred to as a safety on this page):

I DON'T own a MK IV Series 70. I DON'T know what Colt did to save costs on those guns. I WILL speculate that Colt went away from the original 1911 hammer and took the notch off and replaced it with a shelf. The whole saving machining time and cost.

1911hammers.jpg
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I suspect then that the Colt you own has the shelf.

NOTE: the JMB design is to ONLY refer to the half cock notch as JMB did NOT design the Commander hammer. I used that picture only so that the only real difference between the 2 is the notch.
 
JMB was opposed to the inertial firing pin safety, now used on 99% of hammer fired autos?

That right hammer is a series 80 type.
 
The inertia firing pin is a passive safety; the sight safety was an active safety that had to be engaged by the user.

Jim
 
Just FWIW, can ANYONE cite ANY references prior to, say, 1960, for the term "five beans in the wheel" or a bill (of any denomination) carried in a chamber to keep a round from being inserted?

Do you mean the actual phrase, "five beans in the wheel?"
No.
That sounds like something a New York novelist or screenwriter would come up with as an imagined saying of us ignorant Southerners and Westerners.
The practice? Sure, many references.

Mike Venturino once shot a revolver with a dollar bill rolled up in one chamber. Five black powder rounds left it in pretty poor shape, I don't think the bartender would have accepted it.


I THINK the original 1900 Colt .38 Automatic with sight safety had a full length bronze firing pin. Later Colt quit installing the sight safety and used an inertial firing pin. They would delete the sight safety upon request, or maybe like Ruger does now, any time they could get their hands on one.
The instructions for the gun refer to the disconnector as a safety device.
 
Whew! What a long argument. I am in way over my head about the technical design of the 1911 but what has not been discussed is who the user it was designed for and how it was intended to be carried.

As 1911 fans know the 1911 was design exclusively for use by horse mounted military soldiers. Army doctrine the entire time the 1911 was in service was hammer down on empty chamber. The gun was not to be charged until going into combat and would be reloaded while on horseback. This procedure is evident by the fact both the gun and magazine had lanyards attached to them to prevent loss while riding. This suggests to me the as far as the Army was concerned the half cock was a safety device when loading and unloading the gun. Since Army policy did not allow cocked & locked it was never intended as a carry safety. The fact it can be routinely carried cocked & locked is a testament to it's design.

As for the Colt SAA the safety notch is anything but. Wyatt Earp cleared out a saloon in Wichita when his SAA fell out of it's holster when he was sitting in chair. Ruger redesigned it's single action revolvers after losing a big lawsuit. I have never read why Colt sold this gun with this problem but maybe that is a good topic for another day.
 
JMB was opposed to the inertial firing pin safety, now used on 99% of hammer fired autos?

That right hammer is a series 80 type.
Isn't this the revolver forum? Is this not a thread about single action revolvers?
 
As usual with safety devices other than a half-cock, Browning opposed the idea and devised it only because Colt demanded it. On later guns, the sight safety was discontinued and only the half cock was employed until the Army demanded a manual safety for what ultimately became the Model 1911.

Bingo.

As for the Colt SAA the safety notch is anything but. Wyatt Earp cleared out a saloon in Wichita when his SAA fell out of it's holster when he was sitting in chair.

If Bat Masterson's account is accurate, Wyatt had the hammer forward with the nose resting against the primer and not in the quarter or half cock notch. With that condition, a light blow to the hammer would do the trick.
 
The army wouldn't use a half cock with the far safer full down position was available. That statement isn't historically accurate.
 
The army wouldn't use a half cock with the far safer full down position was available.

Army protocol was hammer down on an empty chamber, and only authorized cocked and locked when action was expected...with the understanding that the gun was to be returned to safe condition once the emergency had passed.

RX...by now it's pretty clear to everybody except you that Browning designed his half cock to function as a safety as well as a device to arrest an errant hammer. If you don't want to use it as a safety, then don't. I don't, and I don't know anybody who does any more. I don't even advise anyone to carry the gun in Condition 1. When asked, I outline the options and leave the final decision to the user. It can be carried in any of several different ways. A matter of choice.

Yes, it could conceivably fire if dropped. It could do that in any condition other than with an empty chamber. No gun is as safe if dropped as when it's not dropped. It could conceivably fire if lightning struck the gun while being carried with a round in the chamber. The "What ifs" are endless. The only way to make it completely safe is to never load it...and even then, you might drop it on your foot and break a toe. In all my years handling guns, I've accidentally dropped two. One revolver and one 1911. Neither one fired.

And...as Craig noted...this thread is about carrying single action revolvers with the hammer down on an empty chamber. The question has been answered and explained about as far as it can be. If it were up to me, I'd lock it at this point.
 
"five beans in the wheel" LOL
That was in my first post #1.
I just used the term cause it got my point across. I might have read it someplace, maybe it was in a movie, doesn't matter. Seemed everyone knew what I was talking about.
I think I got my initial questions answered by post #14.
I learned that I will not wear out cylinders that get less cartridges fired from them and so I will continue to load my "wheel gun" with one empty chamber.

I happen to own a 1911 Colt as well since the topic of discussion has turned to that. I don't even keep a bullet in the chamber, let alone go around cocked and locked.
In a self defense situation, I'll rack it and deal with the situation from there. I don't want to blow my leg apart and bleed to death with accidental discharge. I don't want somebody to pull the trigger on any of my guns and have them go off unintentionally.
Hopefully, I will have it together enough to react as I have practiced in such a situation.

You guys have fun with this. :)
 
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