Single vs double ejector?

IdahoSkies

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It has come time to replace the extractor in my Remington 721 which means a conversion to the badger/m16 extractor.
The gunsmith I am looking offers a single or a double ejector. What are the advantages of a double ejector? Is a single good enough? Tell me why I should have a double ejector done.
 
It has come time to replace the extractor in my Remington 721 which means a conversion to the badger/m16 extractor.
The gunsmith I am looking offers a single or a double ejector. What are the advantages of a double ejector? Is a single good enough? Tell me why I should have a double ejector done.

If you can't find a Rem M721 extractor you don't have many options. But I would look first for the M721 extractor as the rifle is safer with its original extractor in its bolt head.

an intact bolt head ring has saved the face of many a shooter.This shooter fired an ultra high pressure round that required the barrel to be removed before the bolt could be opened. And looky how the case swelled so much it had to be lathe turned from the bolt head.

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I have examined a M721 bolt that has the SAKO extractor conversion in the bolt head

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with the bolt in locked position, that SAKO extractor is directly in line with the bolt lug race. With enough gas release, that SAKO extractor will blow out of the receiver ring, and there have been a number of shooters who lost an eye when that happened.

The M16 extractor is a fine extractor in a M16. Here is the extractor on the bolt.


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when the bolt is in battery, that extractor is buried inside the bolt carrier, it is not going to blow out in this application

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further more, the bolt and carrier are inside the upper

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and the front of the bolt, extractor included, is inside the locking lug extension when the bolt is in battery

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Never say never, but it is very hard to blow a AR15/M16 extractor out of an AR15/M16.

Not so with a Rem M721 or M700

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that conversion creates a gas path that will absolutely rip the side of the bolt body off, and blow that long extractor out of the receiver ring. There is nothing inside or outside of a M721/M700 receiver to keep that extractor in place, or keep it from leaving the receiver. When the bolt is in battery, that extractor is aligned with the lug race on the right side of the receiver.

Sure a M16 extractor is mil spec, but that means nothing when it is used in an application it was never intended to be used.

I suggest going to Ebay and look for a M721 extractor, that's how I got a spare. Failing availability of one, maybe a M700 extractor can be fitted to the bolt head of a M721. I don't know. I would like to know if that is possible.
 
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If you can't find a Rem M721 extractor you don't have many options. But I would look first for the M721 extractor as the rifle is safer with its original extractor in its bolt head.

I suggest going to Ebay and look for a M721 extractor, that's how I got a spare. Failing availability of one, maybe a M700 extractor can be fitted to the bolt head of a M721. I don't know. I would like to know if that is possible.

Mine is in 3006, and rivetless. The only ones I can find are for the .222 bolt face or are labeled "magnum." Do you know if the magnum size will fit the 3006 bolt face? I know the .222 won't.
 
Thank you for a good photo essay and supporting text SlamFire. I modified one Rem 700 for a Sako extractor. I wasn't in favor of doing it either but my instructor pointed out that it was part of the class and if you can't convince the customer not to do it, you might as well make the money. Besides he pointed out, it's part of the class and that I should have the experience so the customer's gun isn't the first rodeo.

As you pointed out, there is less case support and handling of gases when part of the Rem bolt is milled out for the extractor. Also, there was a test of extractor strength and a dummy bolt head was made with one end that took a Sako Mauser style claw extractor and the other end a Rem 700 extractor. Faux cartridges slipped onto the extractors and a tug of war commenced. The Rem 700 extractor outpulled the Mauser style extractor.
 
Offering the counterpoint - almost all custom R700 clone actions from some of the most skilled and knowledgeable gun builders in the world use sako/M-16 type extractors. Bolt heads for controlled round feed actions also do not fully enclose the case head either.

The Remington marketing of “3 rings of steel” might have been a small, incremental safety enhancement for that model, but it’s kinda fearmongering to point to partially interrupted boltface rim as unsafe.

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Remington's design was to minimize machining to make a bolt and it was Remington's marketing that hit upon the idea of "3 rings of steel" as a sales pitch.
 
To the op: I sent in a 700 bolt to have an m16 extractor put in to fix the fact that the bolt face itself was crooked (from the factory). Apparently they refaced the bolt in the process of doing the new extractor. Something like that. I don’t know, anyway it worked but that’s not the point, that’s just the setup. When doing this, they confused my work order with someone else’s and it came back with two ejectors. They work great. Not better than one, but they do work. Not worth the extra expense to me but since I got it on accident I’m glad it worked.

it ejects more forcefully, but not crazy like a mini14
 
Forgot, one possible advantage may be that should one ejector fail there’s another one right there so you may not even notice the failure of the one.
 
Offering the counterpoint - almost all custom R700 clone actions from some of the most skilled and knowledgeable gun builders in the world use sako/M-16 type extractors. Bolt heads for controlled round feed actions also do not fully enclose the case head either.

The Remington marketing of “3 rings of steel” might have been a small, incremental safety enhancement for that model, but it’s kinda fearmongering to point to partially interrupted boltface rim as unsafe.

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Take a look how Mauser extractors are supported. They are attached to the bolt in the middle, hooked to the front of the bolt, and fit under the right of the receiver rail.

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When the bolt is closed, the Mauser extractor is far into the receiver ring and is hard to blow out. This is a "Mauser type" extractor on a M70, and clearly the action had excessive gas release, but the extractor did not blow out.

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Mauser also designed gas venting and gas blocking features in his action that are not there in a Rem M700. Mike Walker designed his action so gas release would be contained by the bolt face.

BREECH CLOSING CONSTRUCTION FOR FIREARMS 2,585,195
Merle H. Walker, lion, N. Y., assignor to Remington Arms Company, Inc., Bridgeport, Conn., a corporation of Delaware Application

Prior art firearms of the type employing fixed metallic ammunition have always been dependent upon the metallic cartridge case for securing obturation with the walls of the barrel chamber and preventing the rearward escape of gas from the barrel. As a result, the head of high intensity center-fire rifle cartridges has always been a massive chunk of brass of usually adequate strength to bridge over gaps between the end of the bolt and the chamber mouth, or clearance cuts for extractors, ejectors, and the like. However, in spite of this massive construction, the heads of cartridges, due to metallurgical deficiencies, barrel obstructions, or other difficulties, all too often fail in service, releasing white hot gas at pressures in excess of 50,000 pounds per square inch into the interior of the receiver. With some modern commercial and military rifles the effects of a burst head are disastrous, completely wrecking the action and seriously injuring or killing the shooter. One of the better known military rifles presents in alignment with the shooter's face a straight line passage down the left hand bolt lug guide groove, which, even though the receiver proper does not blow up, channels high pressure gas and fragments of the cartridge head into the location where they can do the most damage. It has been often, and truthfully, said that the Strength of most rifles is no greater than that of the head of the cartridges intended for use therein. The primary object of this invention is the provision of a firearm construction which is not thus dependent upon the strength of a cartridge head, ordinarily formed of a material of relatively low strength by comparison with the ferrous alloys used for the firearm structure.

Cutting the bolt face ring will channel gases down into the action when a primer pops or the case head ruptures. Mike Walker designed his action to keep the gases in at the breech, so the action was not designed for the contingency of what happens if the bolt face ring is deliberately cut. The only thing keeping a SAKO or M16 extractor in place is a pivot pin. Those pivot pins are not that strong, nor were they ever designed to retain the extractor during massive, high pressure gas release. And, there is nothing in the action of a Rem M700 or M721 which will keep a SAKO/M16 extractor in place, nor keep one from blowing out of the action.

My SAKO Finnbear, I am 100% certain that the guide bar on the right side of the bolt is there to keep its extractor from blowing out during over pressure conditions. It is not really needed to guide the bolt.

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These SAKO/M16 extractor conversions are an example of immature and half baked ideas that make a lot of money for some people. Sure, a SAKO extractor will probably last longer than a M700 extractor, but, the conversion on a Rem M700/M721 makes the action less safe.

Incidentally, Mauser seated his cartridge very deep in his action and that is great. The more case head sticks out of the chamber, the less well the case head is supported, the more likely the sidewall will rupture and vent gas into the action. These little things are very important.

This is a Mauser barrel

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this is a M1903 barrel

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the amount of unsupported case head is greater with the M1903, and the M98 has a ring inside the action surrounding the case head, except at the extractor groove. Mauser designed a very safe action, considering it is first and foremost, a military action. Mauser's tradeoffs were different from Mike Walker's. However, both actions are well thought out.

SAKO and M16 extractor conversions are not very well thought out, in my opinion.
 
Most of my 700s are clones and have m16 style extractors, havent blow one up yet to find out personally if they are less safe.....
I have had to replace 2 700 clip style extractors and those sucked, but werent actually difficult.
I also have one 700 bolt with dual ejectors....while i like them in that application (28nosler) i wouldnt pay extra for them on a standard bolt head.

This guy might have something thatll work for you.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1336377562...yeKexzoQHu&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY
 
Most of my 700s are clones and have m16 style extractors, havent blow one up yet to find out personally if they are less safe.....

I hope you never do have an over pressure situation. But they happen, and often in ways you never anticipated, and in situations where you don't have control.

I had a 45ACP case blow its case head, and I am quite sure it was due to the factory replacement of a magazine release that was too high, and RIA sent me a magazine release that was too low. That low magazine release allowed bullets to hit the feed ramp, seat the bullet a little bit in the case, and given enough tries, one deeply seated bullet blew its case head. These things are a big surprise when they happen, and only afterward does the cause become obvious.

As an example, of something unexpected, one of the CMP Talladega Range Master had his 6.5-08 Rem M700 blow up. The rifle was a 2016 action and one lug set back enough for the case head to rupture. The three rings saved his face. When his Gunsmith sectioned the lug, it had "bubbles" in the steel! That tells me, something was seriously wrong with the homogeneity of the steel used to make that bolt. Some sneaky steel vendor sold Remington a lot of steel that should have been rejected by their QA, but was shipped, and Remington Huntsville had limited incoming inspection. Kobe Steel is a good example of a steel maker who for more than 50 years, shipped non conforming steels.

Report on the Kobe Steel Group's misconduct

https://www.kobelco.co.jp/english/releases/files/20180306_en.pdf

REPORT ON MISCONDUCT IN KOBE STEEL GROUP

https://www.kobelco.co.jp/english/releases/files/20180306_report_en.pdf


I have had to replace 2 700 clip style extractors and those sucked, but werent actually difficult.

Every push feed extractor will in time wear out. The service rifle teams shoot enough to wear out M16 extractors. The Remington M700 extractor is quite susceptible to breaking when over pressure loads swell the case head. There is no place for the extractor to go, and the blade snaps when crushed. And the blade wears. I knew a lot of High Power shooters who used the Remington M700 for years. And I knew one shooter who had his extractor wear out. It happens.

You can wear out a controlled round feed extractor, particularly if the round is not fed from the magazine. If a controlled round feed extractor has to snap over the rim of a cartridge, it is only a matter of time till it will break through metal fatigue.

Such is life, nothing lasts, nothing is finished, and nothing is perfect.
 
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Note the big hole on the right side of the Mauser 98 receiver? That's not there by accident.
 
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