Situational Awareness vs. Omnipotence

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Bottom line:

Too many folks put too much stock in physical objects to keep evil away, and if for some reason if evil were to show up, these physical objects would magically take care of evil all by them selves.

Software, not hardware .

Mindset, Skillsets "then" tool sets....in that order.


This belief in "hardware" has become much worse over the years.
I remember the days before The Great Equipment Race and the "hardware only believers" today are much worse that any of us ever expected.
 
Hey, Buzz.

I just went back and found the thread about Wyocarp and his two Glocks, and I can't see where he did anything that I wouldn't be comfortable doing. He's on the road, he stops for fuel and a beverage, he sees some mildly suspicious behavior, and then what? He walks in, goes to the drink cooler, looks the guy over a little, and gets a beverage. The guy and his girl haul a$$, I assume Wyocarp goes to the counter and pays for his drink, and down the road he goes. Later on he thinks, "That was kinda funny," and posts it for us to think about too. I don't see what he could have done better.

Are you saying he shouldn't carry two Glocks? Or he shouldn't have gone in the store when somebody was acting suspicious? Or am I missing your point altogether?

Parker
 
Well Stupid is as stupid does.

If you think that by being melodramatic and condescending that you are going to change people's minds and invite open and honest debate you have much bigger problems than you think. Good to luck to you with that course of action.

Also just let me add that you still have not shown a problem actually exists. All you have shown is some posturing on internet forums that could be interpreted differently. Unless you believe everything you read on the internet in which case I don't know what to tell you.
 
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Life is like a box of chocolates...

sm - Bang on.

Catspa, I don't want to dwell too much on Wyocarp and the open carry issue, although, regrettably now, I did refer to his thread as it gave me the final impetus to post my thoughts, which I have had for some time. To answer your question though, I do wonder why he goes regularly (by his own admission) to a place he refers to as a magnet for trouble. This time he went at midnight with his son!! Would he have done so if he was unarmed? Don't most people agree that avoiding trouble spots is the thing to do , armed or not? Could his willingness to go there be a sign of dual Glock induced overconfidence? The fact that he says the guy booked after being "confronted" (his words again) indicates to me he gave the dude more than just a passing glance. Again would he have felt compelled to do that, in a dangerous area yet, if he wasn't sporting the two guns?

These points just topped up the ongoing concern I have that many people (on the internet, in America and right here in my home town too) take on a different persona when armed that allows them to engage in behaviors that could arguably be unwise at best, intrusive in the middle and downright dangerous in the worst case. It does not stop them (or Wyocarp) from being one of the good guys, it is just an area of concern and a mindset issue I think is worthy of thought and discussion.

Stupid is as stupid does
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Titan6, I did pose the question - who do you become when you strap on your gun(s)? Judging by your latest contribution, clearly, you turn into Forrest Gump!!:D:D:D:D:D
 
sm -
I've thought it before and I'll say it now - Interesting writing style you have as well as the insights themselves. Very thought provoking.

Well, this is my bus stop.
 
Ok, all Tropical Buzz was trying to do was point out that the way he reads some posts on the internet that many people post that they act differently when armed then they do otherwise. He was using sarcasm and absurdity to make his point.

There is no need for anyone to take it personal. There seem to be a lot of people who take themselves a bit too seriously and have thin skins about this. For heavens sake, he didn't single anyone out by name, his comments were generic. If you can't laugh at yourself occasionally then you are missing a lot of fun in life. Some of you guys would never make it among professionals if you get all bent out of shape over a little sarcasm online. There was a chalkboard in the break room of the first PD I worked for. Get involved in a humorous or embarrassing incident and one of the Sergeants who was quite the amateur cartoonist would have nice little cartoon of you on the board in 24 hours.....

Tropical Buzz was pointing out something he noticed that might not show us in the best light to those people not in the gun culture who might surf in and read things here. Given that a big part of our mission is to portray the shooting community as normal everyday people, just like everyone else, that is something worth talking about.

Wyocarp there are plenty of other posts here besides yours that fit the profile that Tropical Buzz is referring to. He didn't mean anything personal by it. Titan6 you've been in a professional environment and you should know what I'm talking about regarding having a bit thicker skin. We're all on the same team here.
 
What is the point of starting a thread who's sole purpose seems to be flamimg other members? If you don't like what someone's doing PM them or address it in the particular thread you take exception to
 
Tropical Buzz- nice post, very relevant to a few people whom I've met (fortunately very few). Those who seem to be taking offense may not have read your entire post, may not appreciate the dry Brittish humor or may in fact be mall ninjas themselves. That was a well placed poke into a hornet's nest. I find myself grinning more and more. Thank you.

I am the same fellow, whether armed of unarmed. I am well aware that I can get shot in the ass in either condition.
 
uh, i become myself. the first few months of ccw'ing, was a little different, but that soon fades, and you realize that you are just an average joe, but, with a gun, IF you need it.:what:
 
Just my .02 on the subject



DOC’S RULES

To live a calm, quiet, peaceful, tranquil life in solitude
Where I talk to no one I do not wish to
Go no place I do not want to
And spend no money unless necessary

PERSONAL DEFENCE Strategy

STARE – W

S = Situational awareness, be aware of your surroundings
T = Train with all your weapons
A = Avoid trouble
R = Remove yourself from the situation
E = Escape or evade
AND THE
W = Win if you have to fight
Click to expand...
 
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I feel like Jack Bauer when I strap on my piece, yo! Is that super hero enough? I even start saying things like, 'Damit, Chloe!' 'We're out of time!' amongst other things. So am I cool now?

Damian
 
These points just topped up the ongoing concern I have that many people (on the internet, in America and right here in my home town too) take on a different persona when armed that allows them to engage in behaviors that could arguably be unwise at best, intrusive in the middle and downright dangerous in the worst case.
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I think the real issue is that people assume a different persona on line. This has been proven over and over again. You still have not introduced any evidence that people assume a different persona by being armed. Even a single circumstance of a problem might be presented.

I have only been around a short period of time but in that time I find that there are people who talk one way and act quite another.

Jeff- I am not offended. More disappointed than anything. Like I said he has not shown a single thing he has said to be true by any stretch so it is all just tribal lore and folk wisdom couched in sarcasm. I have no complaint, I don't ever complain unless someone is way out of bounds by being racist or something along those lines.

It is possible that there is something to his argument. I would just like to see some evidence of it is all. But I don't think any is forthcoming because there isn't any to be had. So all he is really doing is perpetuating a stereotype that the other side likes to play on. If he thinks by mocking the stereotype he can make it go away then so be it. But he all he is really doing is inspiring Jack Bauer type comments. Debate would be nice but I say there isn't really a problem. Since he can't show otherwise there is no debate.

Too many folks put too much stock in physical objects to keep evil away, and if for some reason if evil were to show up, these physical objects would magically take care of evil all by them selves.
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Well that is an ancient truth right there. Man has used totems since before human history began. The totems of today in a modern society are more secular but there is a false faith that they are capable of solving problems in of themselves. Cell phones, guns, money and cars are seen as problems solvers rather than a part of a solution driven by thought, experience, training and the human equation. The bigger difference is that many of the totems in a secular societycan be used to solve problems if applied properly.

But what the OP was talking about was people subsuming different personalities and a belief in super human skill based upon the simple uninspired act of carrying a firearm. While the above is certainly not true to say that carrying a firearm is not empowering denies reality. Carrying a firearm is just as empowering as driving a car. It just empowers you quite differently is all.
 
But what the OP was talking about was people subsuming different personalities and a belief in super human skill based upon the simple uninspired act of carrying a firearm. While the above is certainly not true to say that carrying a firearm is not empowering denies reality. Carrying a firearm is just as empowering as driving a car. It just empowers you quite differently is all.
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Titan6, quit taking me so literally. As someone who does a bit of writing yourself, you know better. While you're very capable of understanding my point, you resent the way I expressed myself and you choose to focus your critique on that and busy yourself shooting the messenger instead of considering the message. Suit yourself.

Evidence?? You assert that people tend to assume a different persona online. Based on our experience, discussion and observation, most of us agree that tendency exists, but if I decided to be a jerk and insist you provide hard evidence of that, would you be prepared to do so?

Proof? Allow me to offer myself. (At great risk, I realise - since you're likely to dismiss this as "my problem" that I am attempting to project on others)

A bit of relevant background:

I grew up with a basically principled but scrappy nature. I invested early in learning how to fight and for much of my early adult life, I prided myself in being somewhat of a "giant killer" when it came to fighting. My upbringing conditioned me not to be a bully or an instigator but to be ready to defend myself. I did more than that. While I always smugly asserted that I didn't start the fights, what I was, was an enabler. I allowed - even helped - confrontations I could easily have walked away from to escalate to blows while pretending to the high road position of self defense.

Then, I met my future wife and though we were very much in love, she made it clear that she would not have a "fighter" for a mate. A bit of introspection quickly set me on the correct path and I told her to get lost. LOL! Just kidding! I changed my brawling ways cold turkey.

My experience with firearms is somewhat similar.

I grew up around guns. My father was a good, solid military man and he used the same pragmatic, effective approach to educate me about guns that he employed for cars, tools, boats, all things mechanical and life in general. I submit that, like many, I had a good, sound upbringing when it came to the use of firearms.

In spite of that, in my very early days of holding a CW permit down here (all civilian handgun licences here are for CC, BTW), I did find myself more willing to go into places and situations that could potentially lead to trouble. I also found myself taking the concept of SA above and beyond, to the point of actively looking for or seeking out signs of suspicious, hostile or criminal behavior in strangers.

Fortunately, through ongoing training - which also focuses heavily on mindset conditioning - and discussion, both locally and online, I was able to recognise these behaviors and take conscious steps to correct myself and put principle into practice in my daily life. Now I am very conscious of the issue and its potential dangers as are many of my associates in the local gun community. Almost all of us admit to having to take deliberate action to eliminate the tendencies in ourselves. We also see many that haven't and they really stand out.

Growing up with someone certainly gives you an insight into their personality and we see men who were always relatively meek and mild exhibiting ridiculously contradidtory behavior now that they are armed. Having a gun seems to have given them a sense of confidence and invulnerability that has made them more aggressive and likely confront and stare people down than they ever were before.

I see signs of this "vigilante mindset" (a more palatable description, hopefully, than "superhero syndrome") to varying degrees in a lot people who carry guns in public, including posters right here on THR. And just forget about asking me to identify specific posters and threads - I made that mistake with Wyocarp's thread and I refuse to do it again.

If you continue to insist that it doesn't exist then flogging it any further is pointless. I maintain that it is a real and important issue, relevant to the greater topic of gun ownership and warranting of thought and discussion. Some will agree and some will not and so it goes...

"Tribal lore and folk wisdom" - LMAO! Good one. Excuse me while I adjust my grass skirt - dam thing tends to ride up when I type!


Damian-
So am I cool now?
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Absolutely my friend. You make Bo Deadly look like a dork!:D
 
I think the people who "change" when they strap on a gun also experience the same thing whenever they posses anything they perceive to give them power. Whether it is a management position at work or some piece of information, however insignificant, that you may need. It can most closely be compared to short man syndrome, an incessant need to make up for perceived shortcomings by seeking out and exploiting every bit of "power" they can get their hands on.

My point is that it isn't about the tool, it almost never is, it is about an individual's personality traits or fear. The problem is that people see these "superman, vigilante, justice league" types and blame the inanimate object instead of the human being wielding the tool.
 
I understand the concept of the post, I just don't think it should have been so pointedly directed at one member.

I'm not sure how to answer the question because I'm very rarely not armed. I have tended to be more accomadating since I started carrying. I go out of my way to avoid confrontation because I know the hassel I can bring into my life with just one second of stupidity while carrying a firearm.

The kind of places I wouldn't go without a handgun aren't anymore attractive to me when I'm armed so that hasn't changed.

Bottom line I guess I've taken to heart all the posts I've read here about how you're putting control of your life in the hands of the judicary anytime you draw.
 
There are times when a well placed stare that says "I an aware of you" can avoid a bad situation. I have used this kind of look more than once myself. My own experience is that if I show fear or act oblivious to a threat, I am making myself a more attractive target. Most people don't want to tangle with someone who will fight back even if they think they can take them.
Was the person Wyocarp gave the look a real threat? I don't know but I'd rather size them up than not if it doesn't feel right.
I have done this many times when I wasn't armed. I'm pretty much the same guy armed or unarmed. Of course living and working in a large metropolitan area. Working in & around downtown a lot. My misspent youth that involved a fair amount of substance abuse and other substance abusers hasn't taught me anything about how to read people or their intentions. I don't know anything & most certainly can't judge whether someone was right or wrong in their assessment of a situation I wasn't present at. And obviously I don't know anything about situational awaress or avoidance as it's been about 23 years since my last fight & I've never had to pull a gun on anyone.
 
I think the people who "change" when they strap on a gun also experience the same thing whenever they posses anything they perceive to give them power. Whether it is a management position at work or some piece of information, however insignificant, that you may need. It can most closely be compared to short man syndrome, an incessant need to make up for perceived shortcomings by seeking out and exploiting every bit of "power" they can get their hands on.

My point is that it isn't about the tool, it almost never is, it is about an individual's personality traits or fear. The problem is that people see these "superman, vigilante, justice league" types and blame the inanimate object instead of the human being wielding the tool.
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Could not have said it better in any way.

Bullys are bullys because they were taught to be that way through negative reinforcement in a self perpetuating cycle. It does not really matter what they "feel" gives them the power, right and justification for their actions once the bully feels he is in the drivers seat he will push it. On rare occasions you see police officers melt down in highly public ways when they start to think that they have unlimited power to do as they please because of a badge and gun, which is what I was alluding to few posts back.

This phenomenon is hardly unique to the LEO community and sometimes other public servants or private industry leaders (and soldiers of course) do the same thing. But it is not "the gun" that makes people behave in selfish destructive ways it is something wrong with the person. I am not even sure if the gun is a catalyst, although I guess it is possible.

I appreciate your example and do not dismiss it. However I would consider that maybe age and biology played a bigger role than the status of being armed.
 
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To me and many other gun enthusiasts I talk to, a man should be outwardly no different whether he is armed or not.
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To me it's like wearing shoes. How often are you conscious of wearing shoes?

I forget it's there, most of the time.
 
My point is that it isn't about the tool, it almost never is, it is about an individual's personality traits or fear. The problem is that people see these "superman, vigilante, justice league" types and blame the inanimate object instead of the human being wielding the tool.
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Absolutely the problem is rooted in the individual, and there's a justified reluctance among us to risk attributing any blame to the gun - it's an inert, dead, inanimate object, powerless and blameless on its own.

We all agree on that. However, can we acknowledge that SOME individuals do indeed - when armed - find an illusion of power, confidence and in the extreme, a degree of invulnerability from the fears that limit them personally and psychologically? And I'm not just talking about the kinds of fears that render a really messed up person dysfunctional. I also refer to the RATIONAL fears and aversion to danger that prevent "normal" folks from acting recklessly or unwisely.

If we can get past this admission (acknowledgement of an issue is the first step towards resolution), I submit that in the case of most people its a simple fix. Attitude adjustment is only a conscious decision away.

The really screwed up folks, gun owners or not, will have problems and issues in all aspects of their lives. Once a person's basic sense of self and security is threatened, the entire heirarchy of needs comes crashing down. Not talking so much about them.

Here's the basic question:
Is the risk of feeling overly empowered while armed in public widespread enough and enough of an issue to warrant awareness and a conscious effort to correct?
 
I think we actually STOP paying attention when we carry

I have actually noticed in myself the exact opposite. I have carried for as long as I can remember, and I honestly just don't think about it. I pocket my CCW with as much thought as my keys or wallet. This actually concerns me some. I recently had to be in several work situations that did not allow carry, and I was much more situationally aware without my gun. It actually got me thinking that I have become too confident, that maybe I am not paying proper attention when I carry. I was very aware of every potential threat when I did NOT have my gun. Probably a lesson in that---
 
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