Sized .223 brass will not chamber in AR

[Bartojc]

I'm pretty sure I know what the answers are going to be, but I'm going to ask here anyhow to make sure I dis not miss anything.

I've loaded pistol, and bolt action rifle before, but never anything for a semi-auto. I'm sizing brass in .223 for a Ruger AR-556 using a Lee FL sizing die. Set the die according to instructions, checked the shoulder, and it was bumped back a fair bit, about .008 or so but I decided to leave it as I wanted a good FL size for a semi-auto. I sized and trimmed about 200 casing, and decide to load up a dummy (no powder) round. Upon doing so I found it would not chamber so I was thinking OAL was too long. After lots of trial and error I decided to chamber the brass casing only and it would not chamber. I try another and same thing, and so on. Tight enough that I can not eject with the charge handle. I have to push it out with a cleaning rod. A factory round chambers fine.

All the brass was fired in this rifle. All trimmed to length.

I've read about small base dies, and I've also read they are for people that do not set their dies correctly. I tried resetting the FL die and resized a few casings, and still no go. The die is so hard down on the shell holder now I'm afraid I'd snap the handle if I pushed any harder. I believe the die is set as correct as it can be. Is it a die out of spec ? Is this a case for Small base dies ? What am I missing ?

Thanks,

-Jeff

 

[GooseGestapo]

You may have a "short" chamber. Also, was brass shot in YOUR rifle?

I've had to shorten a few sizing dies over the years to get reliable chambering. I had to take about .005" off the bottom of my .35Rem Lee dies to set the shoulders back enough.

What type brass are you having trouble with? Some milspec brass can be problematic.

 

[Bartojc]

All brass shot in my rifle.

It was all Federal factory ammo. Mostly LC brass. I cannot tell you all 200 will not fit, but I tried enough that wouldn't fit that I believe that to be true.

-Jeff

 

[forestswin]

Jeff
First thing I do with conditions like you're finding is get out the micrometer and calipers and compare your case dimensions to the SAAM I case and chamber drawings to find the offending dimension.

Added
You can also compare your case dimensions to the factory unfired ammo dimensions.

 

[Reloadron]

You mention setting the shoulder back 0.008", that is quite a bit. You also mention these cases were fired originally in this rifle. Since the resized cases won't chamber they are either too long which I doubt since they were fired in this rifle and then had their shoulders setback 0.008" or they are too fat, they are over sized somewhere.

Could it be possible that when setting the shoulder back 0.008" that it forced the case diameter to grow? Not that the diameter should have anywhere to go even inside a standard die. Have you tried to blacken a case (magic marker) and again try to chamber it and see where it rubs? Do you have any case gauges?

Unless you have one heck of a large (deep) chamber I can't see a typical factory round growing 0.008" plus, to where a standard die, adjusted per instructions, would set the shoulder back 0.008", that is quite a bit.

Yes, you can try a small base die but I don't see why what you have won't work?

Ron

 

[Bartojc]

forestswin,

I did do some of that last night. Everything seemed to check out, exception being a small narrow area just above the head/web area. My sized case seems to be about .001-.002 larger than a factory round, at least on the 2 or 3 I checked. I assume they're all the same. Not sure how this can happen, I'm positive my die is set up correctly. My neighbor has a small base FL die that I've asked to borrow. We'll see if that fixes the issue.

-Jeff

 

[Bartojc]

re: "Could it be possible that when setting the shoulder back 0.008" that it forced the case diameter to grow? Not that the diameter should have anywhere to go even inside a standard die. Have you tried to blacken a case (magic marker) and again try to chamber it and see where it rubs? Do you have any case gauges? "

That is what I was wondering, maybe the brass springs back out .001 or .002 after removing from the die ?

I think I know where it's tight, see my last reply. I'll try the marker test tonight to verify. I had to step away due to frustration last night. Can't be mad or frustrated at the bench, that's when things go from bad to worse.

No case gauges, but I can see the need for one now

-Jeff

 

[forestswin]

I don't have SAMMI case drawing with me now, but does that .001 to .002 exceed SAMMI spec?

I haven't had issues at the case head, so I don't know a solution. I did buckle a few 308 cases at the shoulder when crimping and diameter was larger than spec. They would not chamber and had to be trashed.

 

[steve4102]

Set the die according to instructions,...
checked the shoulder,...No case gauges,...
and decide to load up a dummy (no powder) round...

Please explain in detail how you set up your FL die, die brand would also help?

How did you check/measure shoulder bump without case gauges?

This is a sized case with bullet seated, yes, Did you try and chamber just the empty cases before you seated a bullet?

How did you set-up your seating Die, crimp or no crimp?

 

[Blue68f100]

The stretching happens when the bolt moves back to early while the pressure is still up. To correct the problem you need to delay the bolt either through a adj gas block or try replacing the spring or heavier bolt. Your brass should only go about 3 feet if every thing is right. His was throwing brass 10-12' when shooting from a bench. Your gas rings could need replacing too if you have a lot of rounds through it.

My AR brass is only 0.001-0.002" out spec after firing. Some of it will still chamber after firing. I use a adj gas block and have it set down to minimum required to operate the gun reliably. This will also give you more velocity since your not removing the gas pressure too early. And is easy on the brass too.

Just size the brass till it fits the chamber. Some guns are harder on brass than others. But if your getting that much stretch your brass will fail very early due to case separation at the base.

 

[jmorris]

Do you have a case gauge?

 

[Bartojc]

"Please explain in detail how you set up your FL die, die brand would also help?

How did you check/measure shoulder bump without case gauges?

This is a sized case with bullet seated, yes, Did you try and chamber just the empty cases before you seated a bullet?

How did you set-up your seating Die, crimp or no crimp? "

Die Setup - ran die down to shell holder with ram extended all the way up. Put ram down, and then 1/4 to 1/3 more turn on the die. Also when I found I had an issue I ran the die down further and it was no help. Die is Lee FL sizing die in .223. Press is a LCT fwiw...

Measuring the shoulder set back was the poor mans way I read on here long time ago. A small piece of tube that fits over the end of the bottleneck case and hits the shoulder. Measure the length of a case before sizing and after and subtract, and there is your setback.

re: seated bullet. No, I cannot chamber a sized case no bullet.

I've tried a half dozen sized cases and they are all the same, and do not chamber.

No case gage. I now see where one would come in handy. Never needed one before, but never loaded for an AR either.

-Jeff

 

[jmorris]

Well, I would suggest a case gauge but we don't have that option right now.

. Tight enough that I can not eject with the charge handle. I have to push it out with a cleaning rod. A factory round chambers fine.

Do you have a marker or dykem that you can color a case with to then observe the witness marks where it is contacting the chamber and locking things up?

 

[average_shooter]

I second the idea of taking a sharpie to the cases and checking for wear marks upon chambering. Blacken a good half-way down the case.

My guess is that the shoulder is actually getting flared out enough to drag in the chamber. You won't find the error in measuring length or shoulder setback, but if you measure the outside diameter of the case at the shoulder it should become apparent. And hopefully with the sharpie trick you will see drag marks at the shoulder.

If that's the case, remedy by backing the FL die out until you get appropriate sizing without buckling the shoulder.

It can also happen when seating and crimping the bullet in a single step. When I switched to using a Lee Factory Crimp Die the problems seemed to be easily resolved.

I had problems with shoulders buckling and not chambering when I first started loading .223 Rem as well. There was definitely a learning curve with small, bottle neck cartridges.

 

[cfullgraf]

No case gage. I now see where one would come in handy. Never needed one before, but never loaded for an AR either.

Most case gauges, such as Dillon, L E Wilson, and others, only measure the shoulder position and the case over all length. These are cut generously in the body diameter area.

Sheridan Engineering case gauges are cut to SAAMI chamber dimensions where available. These gauges will check the body diameter. If I remember correctly, JP Engineering 223 Remington gauges also measure the body diameter but I've slept since I last look at their gauges.

Decide what all you want to measure and buy accordingly.

 

[Gadawg88]

I would try backing the sizing die out till it barely touches the shell holder, size a case and check for fit. If it doesn't chamber, turn the die down just a little bit at a time and see if you can find the sweet spot.

 

[Rule3]

Yee olde "bump the shoulder" routine,

Adjust your sizing die either up or down in small increments until you get a case that fits.

I rely on my Wilson Case gauge to set up the die.

If the brass is trimmed to trim to length, then that's about all it can be

What bullet are you loading? If 55 gr should be 2.200 or so

 

[tcoz]

Sheridan Engineering case gauges are cut to SAAMI chamber dimensions where available. These gauges will check the body diameter. If I remember correctly, JP Engineering 223 Remington gauges also measure the body diameter but I've slept since I last look at their gauges.

Decide what all you want to measure and buy accordingly.

Sheridan gauges are cut to minimum SAAMI specs. If your cases and/or loaded rounds pass, they'll chamber--guaranteed.
The slotted gauges are pricey but well worth the cost. They're great for diagnosing problems exactly like OP is experiencing.

 

[Bartojc]

Thanks for all the suggestions guys. I was about the do the sharpie test last night, but by then I was frustrated and needed to walk away. I seriously believe it is tight at the base of the case. I thought I could see very faint witness marks on a couple that I tried. When I measured it compared to factory ammo it was about .002 larger. Not sure how that can happen inside a sizing die, but whatever. I'll do the marker test this evening and see what happens.

I'm so embarrassed that I set the die, did a whole pile of brass, and never checked the brass in the chamber. It's been a while since I did rifle brass for a new rifle, much less an autoloader.

-Jeff

 

[243winxb]

From Lee

If you notice that your Lee Die does not appear to push the shoulder of your case back, ensure that you are adjusting the die so that there is no daylight between the top of the shell holder and the bottom of the die during the sizing process. If you see daylight at the top of the stroke, readjust the die downward and repeat sizing until it disappears. .If a case resized in this manner will not chamber, return the die, 3 fired cases, and one resized case to the factory. We will modify the die to minimum head space for you.

From the link below.

 

[Sunray]

"...read they are for people that do not set their dies correctly..." That's not true. SB dies size a few thou more than regular FL dies. They're for tighter than normal chambers. Your Ruger might have such a chamber. Doesn't appear that Lee(assuming that's the brand you want) makes an SB die. Doesn't matter anyway. RCBS does. Your options are a whole "AR" set that comes with the SB die and a taper crimp die at $43.99 from Midway. Or just the SB die at $30.99.
A Wilson Case gauge is just another style of Go/No-Go gauge. Measures nothing.

 

[MDof2]

First and foremost, for you to get any reasonably useful information, you need to get a case gauge and check what you're currently resizing to, and a good set of calipers to measure against SAAMI specifications.

 

[Robert101]

You are lubing your cases right? I don't see a flaw in your case sizing process. I actually don't over-tighten the die into or beyond the shell holder. I usually keep it a 1/4 turn off of the shell holder. Yes, I understand the die instructions. My chamber allows more free space than yours apparently.
The only two options (in my opinion) seem to be either:
1. The case is budging (maybe not enough lube) during resizing, or
2. The die is not made correctly.

You have stated that a factory round chambers as evidenced by the empty shell casing. So apparently your chamber is ok with SAAMI spec dimensions.

 

[MEHavey]

1. If the gun chambers commercial ammunition, it's not the gun.
2. If you are Full-Length resizing (with a bit of cam-over), and that empty sized case won't chamber,
....it's the sizing die.

See if someone local will loan you another die and check it out.




(BTW: What case lube are you using?)

 

[ColoradoShooter77]

I would get a "small base" die and try that. I've got a Remington 700 .308 that I had the same problem with. It would not chamber brass sized with the Lee die....but the cases sized on the small base die glide right it.

My rifle obviously has a "tight" chamber.